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SeattleDV8 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR has the correct breakdown

Of course you have to add a subliminal "that turn" into the BRB, as otherwise technically you cannot ever disembark....

No, you do not add things to the rules willy nilly,
Especially when there is a timing stated.
The FAQ states when the unit is removed as casualties.
That is when the vehicle " is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out"
The rule now only is triggered 'in the movement phase'.

It's not adding things willy nilly - it's using context. The words "that movement phase" means the movement phase of the turn in question.

SeattleDV8 wrote:
No, you do not add things to the rules willy nilly,
Especially when there is a timing stated.
The FAQ states when the unit is removed as casualties.
That is when the vehicle " is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out"
The rule now only is triggered 'in the movement phase'.

False. The FAQ does not add a limitation to the rule.

The FAQ question was giving a clarification of a specific situation, not making a general ruling. It never says that there are not OTHER times, as well, when the passengers may be removed as casualties.

That being so, we then have to go back to the rule and read the text; and it tells us that the passengers are removed if the transport is destroyed that turn.

Now, if the transport is destroyed in the ENEMY'S turn, the passengers are NOT removed (since 'turn' indicates 'player turn' unless otherwise specified); so basically the only way you could get the passengers to be removed except in the Movement phase is by either deliberately shooting your own vehicle or having a blast scatter onto it. But it does disallow this particular 'tactic' of blowing up your own transport to let your troops fall out.

Yes, it does, but it states "in that movement phase"
That locks the rule/FAQ to that phase.
Nowhere are you given permission to use it in another phase, turn or even complete game.
Both the rule on page 70 and the FAQ uses the same term.
You don't need context, it's all there.
Your getting hung up on the old FAQ which was a turn.
Please give me a quote on this rule that uses the word turn, otherwise you're just making things up.

No, it says you cannot disembark if the vehicle moved flat out that movement phase

It does not say you cannot disembark that movement phase if the vehicle moved flat out.

The rulebook states the unit cannot disembark in that turn. The FAQ (which is a clarification, not an errata) clarifies that this means if you destroy your own transport in the movement phase the unit dies. The FAQ answer does not say that if you destroy the transport in some other phase that the unit doesn't die.

You might want to read it a little closer Nos.

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

The FAQ has three qualifiers
1. vehicle destroyed
2. In a movement phase
3. the vehicle went flat out in that movement phase.
therefore an embarked unit is removed as casualties

The second qualifier tells us this only happens now "in the movement phase".

We are given the time this can happen and it's not the turn.
The turn is never mentioned.We do not have permission to destroy the embarked unit except during the movement phase.

The main rulebook says the unit may not disembark, and that prohibition is not limited to the movement phase.

The fact that the FAQ is answering a more specific question, and only mentions the movement phase, does not lift the broader prohibition in the rulebook.

Mannahnin wrote:The main rulebook says the unit may not disembark, and that prohibition is not limited to the movement phase.

The fact that the FAQ is answering a more specific question, and only mentions the movement phase, does not lift the broader prohibition in the rulebook.

This. The FAQ is not overriding the main rulebook, it's clarifying it.

Except the BRB also never mentions the turn.
Fast Transport Vehicles BRB P.70

[Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

Granted this line is directed at the vehicles movement in it's phase, but nothing here states how long the embarked unit cannot disembark.
Is it the movement phase, the turn, a game turn or even the rest of the game?
It doesn't address it directly.
Therefore we have to go to the FAQ, which does give us a time frame, the movement phase.
It's one of the many things that GW changed with this batch of FAQ's.
The time frame was the turn, now it is the movemnt phase.
Come on guys! Embrace the change...heh

Actually with the new FAQ, this may allow you to shoot down your own bird and then assault...

SeattleDV8 wrote:Except the BRB also never mentions the turn.
Fast Transport Vehicles BRB P.70

[Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

Granted this line is directed at the vehicles movement in it's phase, but nothing here states how long the embarked unit cannot disembark.
Is it the movement phase, the turn, a game turn or even the rest of the game?

Since it does not specify, we try to discern their meaning.

So we are disallowed from disembarking if the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase.

In that movement phase must refer to the movement phase of the current turn.

It can not mean all game, since it refers to that movement phase.

So every movement phase w must evaluate if models can disembark.

Rephistorch wrote:Actually with the new FAQ, this may allow you to shoot down your own bird and then assault...

If you want to shoot down your own 200+ pt. transport just to assault, be my guest. I'll even let you re-roll your armour pen.

You also could NEVER assault, as as soon as the vehilce is destroyed it loses any special rules, like Assault Vehicle, leaving you out of a vehicle that has moved and is not open topped or assault vehicle, meaning you cannot assault

Seattle - as has been pointed out, the FAQ does NOT limit you to which part of the turn you cannot disembark, just reiterates that disembarking in the movement phase of that turn is not possible. The BRB limits it to that entire turn

nosferatu1001 wrote:You also could NEVER assault, as as soon as the vehilce is destroyed it loses any special rules, like Assault Vehicle, leaving you out of a vehicle that has moved and is not open topped or assault vehicle, meaning you cannot assault

Seattle - as has been pointed out, the FAQ does NOT limit you to which part of the turn you cannot disembark, just reiterates that disembarking in the movement phase of that turn is not possible. The BRB limits it to that entire turn

But the BRB doesn't actually specify that they can not disembark the whole turn. It appears to say that they can't disembark in "that movement phase". Normally, this is the only time you can voluntarily disembark, so it makes sense that this is the restriction. The FAQ was the only thing that said turn, but they have changed it to reflect the actual wording of the BRB.

Also, you could most certainly still assault, as the vehicle you disembarked from allows you to do so. Yes, the vehicle is gone, but when you disembarked you would still reference the vehicle as to where you could disembark from, wouldn't you? If access points still count, and those are part of the vehicle's rules, it would stand to reason that the Assault Vehicle rule would still count as well.

Also, this is definitely not something I would actually use in a game... Blowing up my own stormraven would just pain me. Although, I can definitely see where it could be tactically advantageous. Draigo+Librarian+Paladins would be a nasty first turn assault into a nice juicy target. Sure, it would cost you 200+ pts, but if you could destroy an especially expensive, nasty squad, it could be worth it.

The BRB says they can not disembark without giving additional allowance.
Looking at my breakdown tells you that you check if the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase. (That can only mean the current turns movement phase) if it has, then you are forbidden from disembarking.


Also you can not use the assault vehicle rule if your transport is destroyed:

Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule.

So you can not assault.

Seattle: The wording change in the FAQ did not change the rules; it changed the scope of the question.

The question itself now only deals with destroyed-in-movement-phase results, the rules on embarkation/disembarkation are in whole.

If i tell my 6 year old that he is not allowed to watch television and he then asks me if he is allowed to watch Sponge-bob; that does not mean he is going to be allowed to watch johnny Test, nor Phineas and Ferb after I tell him no Sponge-bob.

BRB page 70, Fast transport Vehicles wrote:Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved(or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

Ok lets break this rule down; it is a removal of permission granted from earlier rules under certain situations.
What are those situations?
If the vehicle has moved, or is going to move flat out that movement phase.
Which movement phase?
"That" one would mean this turn's.
So the Check for denial of embarkation/disembarkation is if, during this turn's movement phase, the vehicle either did actually move, or was going to move flat-out.

Skies of Blood/Grav-chute insertion/shadow skies can be "tapped" as an available disembarkation after having moved flat-out in this turn's movement phase because it has past-tense wording(with Shadow Skies having the clearest wording letting us know that it is anytime after the stormraven had moved flat out).

A "destoyed-explodes" result on any flat-out transport will allow for the survival of the unit; because the unit does not disembark, it is placed.

DeathReaper wrote:The BRB says they can not disembark without giving additional allowance.
Looking at my breakdown tells you that you check if the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase. (That can only mean the current turns movement phase) if it has, then you are forbidden from disembarking.


Also you can not use the assault vehicle rule if your transport is destroyed:

Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule.

So you can not assault.

Aha, I did not see that in the FAQ (That thing is extremely large now). I agree, with the FAQ, they definitely could not assault.

However, they could still disembark, as the vehicle was not destroyed in the movement phase. The BRB as well as the FAQ both only specify the movement phase as part of the "May not disembark" clause. There is no reason to believe that it applies to any other phase during your turn.

Rephistorch wrote:However, they could still disembark, as the vehicle was not destroyed in the movement phase. The BRB as well as the FAQ both only specify the movement phase as part of the "May not disembark" clause. There is no reason to believe that it applies to any other phase during your turn.

No, they can not disembark, as they are forbidden from disembarking.

You check if the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase. (That can only mean the current turns movement phase) if it has, then you are forbidden from disembarking.

It says you can not disembark IF the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase. (That can only mean the current turn)

So We have to ask a question: Did the vehicle move flat out in that movement phase?

If the answer is yes, then you can not disembark.

DeathReaper wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:However, they could still disembark, as the vehicle was not destroyed in the movement phase. The BRB as well as the FAQ both only specify the movement phase as part of the "May not disembark" clause. There is no reason to believe that it applies to any other phase during your turn.

It says you can not disembark IF the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase. (That can only mean the current turn)

This is where your argument is wrong. You can't make that leap, because it means the movement phase. It does not say or mean 'turn', and they have updated the FAQ to reflect this. You can normally only voluntarily disembark during the movement phase, therefore it is logical that you only lose the models if it is destroyed in the movement phase. Perhaps a rephrasing of the original sentence could help.

Original:
Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

Rephrased:
In the movement phase that a fast vehicle has moved (Or is going to move), passengers may not embark or disembark.

your rephrase is incorrect because it does not restrict you to disembarking only to the movement phase.

The rephrase should be like this:

If a fast transport vehicle has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in the movement phase, then Passengers may not disembark.

The Original says nothing about disembarking In the movement phase.

It only mentions the fast vehicle moving in the movement phase.

To read it how you rephrased it, it would have to have looked like this:

Original:
Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle, if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out, in that movement phase.

Instead the sentence is this:
Original:
Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

Notice how the commas in the first one change the meaning and make it read how you have said.

Where the second one, without the commas, makes it read like I have laid out.

DeathReaper wrote:your rephrase is incorrect because it does not restrict you to disembarking only to the movement phase.

The rephrase should be like this:

If a fast transport vehicle has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in the movement phase, then Passengers may not disembark.

The Original says nothing about disembarking In the movement phase.

It only mentions the fast vehicle moving in the movement phase.

To read it how you rephrased it, it would have to have looked like this:

Original:
Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle, if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out, in that movement phase.

Instead the sentence is this:
Original:
Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

Notice how the commas in the first one change the meaning and make it read how you have said.

Where the second one, without the commas, makes it read like I have laid out.

This is where it says it: Passengers may not embark or disembark ... in that movement phase.

The word "that" is telling.

The clause "in that movement phase" relates to the vehicle having moved Flat Out

It is NOT the time you are restricted from disembarking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The clause "in that movement phase" relates to the vehicle having moved Flat Out

It is NOT the time you are restricted from disembarking.

It's both. You may not disembark in the same (that) movement phase.

No, it is not. That requires you to rewrite the sentence

You may not disembark IF (the vehicle moved flatout in that movement phase)

Except there are no parenthesis, so the "That" is referring to the current movement phase in both regards.

If they really didn't want you to disembark the whole turn, they would have wrote it differently:

Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in (its|your) movement phase.
-or, more clearly-
Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle in a turn that it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out.

In the BRB, "in that movement phase" modifies "if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out".

The parentheses in Nos' post were just him parsing the sentence to point it out.

Mannahnin wrote:In the BRB, "in that movement phase" modifies "if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out".

The parentheses in Nos' post were just him parsing the sentence to point it out.

But why use the word "That"? They could have used, "the", "your", "its" and it would mean something different.

It's because you can normally only disembark in the movement phase, and you can not disembark in THAT movement phase if the vehicle moves flat out.

"that' parses perfectly well to modify THAT movement phases movement - that of going flat out.

It does NOT modify both the restriction on disembarking and the speed the vehicle moved; it ONLY relates to the vehicle movement

It does parse perfectly, You can not disembark if your transport moves flat out in THAT movement phase.

In THAT movement phase, if your transport moves flat out, You can not disembark.

If your transport moves flat out in THAT movement phase, you may not disembark.

These are all equivalent, and they all mean that the movement of your troops in the movement phase is restricted by the movement of your transport in that moving phase.

No, they are not equivalent. You are having an English grammar issue here.