Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just to make sure I'm not cheating here:

If I put a unit (let's say 4 pallies with psychotrokes and draigo) in a Storm Raven, and my army also includes Karamazov, can I do the following?

On turn one, I move my storm raven flat-out toward target of my choice.
In shooting, I fire the Storm Raven's gun via PotMS.
Then I shoot the Raven with a Strength 10, AP 1 lance from Karamazov, resulting in a wreck/destroyed result (for the sake of argument).
According to the INAT, I'm pretty sure Draigo+squad can now assault, as Ravens are Assault Vehicles.


1. Is this legal without INAT?
2. Is this legal with INAT?
3. Would you try this tactic in a game?

You aren't allowed to disembark on a turn you moved flat out, so the models inside will be destroyed.

There are a few things wrong with your situation.

#1 If a transport that moves flat out is destroyed in the same turn that it went flat out, everyone embarked is destroyed.

#2 you can not assault if the transport you were in moved flat out even with the assault vehicle rule.


However the following is 100% legal:

On turn one, I move my storm raven flat-out toward target of my choice.
In shooting, I fire [one] Storm Raven gun via PotMS.
Then I shoot the Raven with a Strength 10, AP 1 lance from Karamazov, resulting in a wreck/destroyed result.

But as I noted all embarked passengers are destroyed in the situation you outlined.

Can you quote the relevant rules to back up your statements?

I found this one, but it doesn't seem to help.
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to any embarked models, as passengers may not disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Page 70 in the BRB under 'Fast Transport Vehicles'

"Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

Kitzz wrote:Can you quote the relevant rules to back up your statements?

I found this one, but it doesn't seem to help.
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to any embarked models, as passengers may not disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

They ruled it this way to prevent Fast tanks from tank shocking getting exploded and having the passengers assault that turn.

No reason they would rule any differently in the situation you described.

theres nothing in the rulebook to say that units inside a destroyed vehicle that went flat out are killed, does it say this in an FAQ?

There are two rules we look at to determine that "units inside a destroyed vehicle that went flat out are killed"

#1 I posted above 'Fast Transport Vehicles' BRB P.70 "Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

#2 Disembarking BRB P.67 talks of disembarking and emergency disembarking and goes on to say "If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark."

Then we are left with a situation where models can't disembark, but they must disembark. and the FaQ is a similar situation, they must disembark because the vehicle was wrecked, but they cant disembark because of flat out.

So they are destroyed.

From the wording it seems to imply if the vehicle was destroyed during it's "owning player's turn" then they would not be able to disembark. It doesn't clarify if this would continue into the next turn when the vehicle is attacked.

So if the "mad russian" blows up his own Storm Raven then the guys inside will die, however don't forget a storm raven has the "Shadow Skies" ability that still allows models to deep strike even when the model moved flat-out (such a thing would probably need to be utilized during your movement phase though to prevent issues).

If the Storm Raven was destroyed during the opponents turn then the paladins would simply exit the vehicle and take any required pinning tests.

They problem with your current theory, DR, is that they are disembarking in the shooting phase if anything.

Kitzz wrote:They problem with your current theory, DR, is that they are disembarking in the shooting phase if anything.

In the previous FAQ the "in a Movement phase" was "in a turn". This raised a lot of questions about what happened to an embarked unit if the transport was destroyed in the opponent's turn. This was not really a problem, because if unspecified, "turn" means "player turn." Apparently GW cleared this up in the current FAQ regardless. The current wording seems to imply that if the transport is destroyed in the owning player's shooting phase, the unit would still be allowed to disembark and assault afterwards because of the Assault Vehicle rule.

However, this is an FAQ, not an errata. It clarifies rather than replaces. So DR's reasoning is still valid. As stated in the rulebook, during a [player's] turn in which the transport moves flat out, units are not allowed to disembark, not even by emergency disembarking. So they are still destroyed if the transport is destroyed.

Again, the rule he rests his argument on only mentions the movement phase. It says nothing about the shooting phase, which is the phase in question.

That aside, my devious plan doesn't work for a different reason:

Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked passengers would not be able to launch an assault in the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule.

Kitzz wrote:Again, the rule he rests his argument on only mentions the movement phase. It says nothing about the shooting phase, which is the phase in question.

You are confusing rule and FAQ. The rule is on page 70 of the Rulebook (section "Fast Transport Vehicles"). The FAQ clarifies that rule. The rule says you cannot disembark and still applies, independent of what the FAQ says.

In case of the Land Raider, the unit can still disembark, because they are able to disembark from a vehicle that has moved at combat/cruising speed.

I'm guessing that "turn" was changed to "movement phase" because there are very. very.very few ways to blow up your vehicle in your shooting phase (I can think of 2, Chaos Dreadnought 'frenzy', and Karamazov, although I don't know what Karamazov's rule actually is, I'm going off what is in this thread.).

'Fast Transport Vehicles' BRB P.70 "Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

If the vehicle moved flat out, Passengers may not embark or disembark.

I do not see how that is not clear.

The old (now irrelevant) Vindicare could shoot down a friendly flier in the movement phase.

DeathReaper wrote:'Fast Transport Vehicles' BRB P.70 "Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

If the vehicle moved flat out, Passengers may not embark or disembark.

I do not see how that is not clear.

Right, but the last two words in that rule state that they cannot disembark in that movement phase. It does not say anything about the shooting phase. If the rule did not have "in that movement phase" then one can assume that you can never disembark. However with the last two words referencing that movement phase, you can conclude that the units can disembark as long as it isn't in the same phase that you moved flat out.

Of course it could also have meant to be read from only the players perspective, not accounting the chance that the vehicle may be destroyed. Just refering to what the player may do with his units.

This is taken from page 67 of the 5th edition rulebook: Emergency disembarkation - the models are deployed anywhere within two inches of the vehicle's hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark.

Page 70, 5th edition rulebook: Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

From the FAQ: Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to any embarked models, as passengers may not disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

The storm raven is the OP's post is destroyed in the shooting phase. The FAQ and the rule from page 70 do not apply in this situation, since they explicitly mention something that happens in the movement phase. The rule from page 67 clarifies the issue in my opinion, but it seems to be where some of the posters are getting hung up. Some people are reading, "...If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark," and applying it to both the rule from page 70 and the FAQ, neither of which apply here because the storm raven is not being destroyed in the movement phase, but rather in the following shooting phase.

I think that the only thing that this, "If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark," is referring to is this, "the models are deployed anywhere within two inches of the vehicle's hull." If the models can not be deployed within two inches of the hull, because of impassable terrain or the hull being surrounded by enemy models/other vehicles, then they are destroyed. It has nothing to do with the flat-out rules.

As long as there is space to deploy those troops, and the vehicle was not destroyed in the movement phase, then the troops should be able to disembark via the emergency disembarkation rules.

Happyjew wrote:I'm guessing that "turn" was changed to "movement phase" because there are very. very.very few ways to blow up your vehicle in your shooting phase (I can think of 2, Chaos Dreadnought 'frenzy', and Karamazov, although I don't know what Karamazov's rule actually is, I'm going off what is in this thread.).

An unlucky scatter result for a friendly blast/large blast will also do it

Ignatius wrote:
Right, but the last two words in that rule state that they cannot disembark in that movement phase. It does not say anything about the shooting phase. If the rule did not have "in that movement phase" then one can assume that you can never disembark. However with the last two words referencing that movement phase, you can conclude that the units can disembark as long as it isn't in the same phase that you moved flat out.

Uh. . . no. It says that they cannot disembark if the vehicle MOVED flat-out in that movement phase; meaning, the movement phase of that turn. Nowhere does it restrict the 'cannot disembark' to ONLY the Movement phase; if they are somehow unfortunately forced to disembark in the Shooting phase of that same turn, they still cannot disembark and are still destroyed.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Uh. . . no. It says that they cannot disembark if the vehicle MOVED flat-out in that movement phase; meaning, the movement phase of that turn. Nowhere does it restrict the 'cannot disembark' to ONLY the Movement phase; if they are somehow unfortunately forced to disembark in the Shooting phase of that same turn, they still cannot disembark and are still destroyed.

Fair enough. My mind has fully processed the rule in question. I had read it in a different light. It literally states that a unit cannot disembark during any following phase if it has moved flat out in the movement phase. I had comprehended it as limiting to the movement phase. In effect, if it moved flat out, they will never disembark.

Ja.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Uh. . . no. It says that they cannot disembark if the vehicle MOVED flat-out in that movement phase; meaning, the movement phase of that turn. Nowhere does it restrict the 'cannot disembark' to ONLY the Movement phase; if they are somehow unfortunately forced to disembark in the Shooting phase of that same turn, they still cannot disembark and are still destroyed.

No, they changed to wording from destroyed that turn to destroyed in a movement phase.
There is no mention of the turn, the FAQ now is in line with the BRB (page70) the only restriction to (dis)embarking is in the movement phase.
BRB FAQ

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

SeattleDV8 wrote: the FAQ now is in line with the BRB (page70) the only restriction to (dis)embarking is in the movement phase.
BRB FAQ

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

The underlined is not true.

There is a restriction on disembarking If the vehicle has moved flat out in that movement phase.

Look at Page 70 again, it says X may not happen IF Y has or is going to happen in that movement phase.

Lets break down the rule. It gives us a restriction on disembarking (Passengers may not disembark). It gives us a type of vehicle the restriction applies to (from a fast vehicle). It gives a condition on the restriction (if it has moved flat out in that movement phase).

So if It (The fast vehicle) has moved flat out in that movement phase, then Passengers may not disembark.

'Fast Transport Vehicles' BRB P.70 "Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

Essentially, if the transport moves flat out in the movement phase, then the rule is saying that at no time during the rest of your turn, and the opposing players turn may the unit become disembarked

Really? sorry gents but that was the old FAQ that stopped disembarking in the whole turn.
The only part of the turn mentioned in the new FAQ is the Movement phase.
The only part of the turn mentioned on page 70 is the Movement phase.
It fact the FAQ is only concerned with a transport being destroyed in it's movement phase if it also was moving Flat Out.
There is nothing that even hints that the entire turn has a restriction now.
Let the old FAQ go, it has no standing .
The term 'turn' (game or player) is not used and as such the rule only applies in the phase that is used, the movement phase.

SeattleDV8 wrote:The only part of the turn mentioned on page 70 is the Movement phase.
The term 'turn' (game or player) is not used and as such the rule only applies in the phase that is used, the movement phase.

Again, read the breakdown.

The line that says "if it has moved flat out in that movement phase" It refers to the vehicle that has moved flat out in that movement phase and nothing more.

So if a fast vehicle has moved flat out in that movement phase, then the Passengers may not disembark.


The FaQ says passengers can not assault if you wreck your vehicle in the movement phase.

No reason to think otherwise about the shooting phase.

Why would you try to blow up your storm raven anyway?

That alot of pts to waste.

DR has the correct breakdown

Of course you have to add a subliminal "that turn" into the BRB, as otherwise technically you cannot ever disembark....

But, nos, if you do, what's to prevent me from thinking the "subliminal" part applies to the entire game? You're just interpreting the rule and adding an arbitrary timeframe to what it says.

Now I know for certain that the assault part doesn't work, but moving 24" with a unit of pallies isn't that bad. Given that they will likely be able to shoot in that shooting phase, the question is still relevant. It's also relevant to scattering weapons that can potentially hit your own units.

As to why you would use this tactic, I think the benefits of positioning are fairly obvious. If this is used in a later turn to grab an objective by transporting a scoring unit, the scoring unit can also fire on whatever other unit is sitting on said objective.

Just because an old edition of the rules said one thing does not mean that the same rule applies. For whatever reason, they changed the FAQ. A change to the rulebook is not really that much different. I don't make the argument that I can use the old vehicle damage table system from 3rd ed or 4th ed just because the rules used to work that way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR has the correct breakdown

Of course you have to add a subliminal "that turn" into the BRB, as otherwise technically you cannot ever disembark....

No, you do not add things to the rules willy nilly,
Especially when there is a timing stated.
The FAQ states when the unit is removed as casualties.
That is when the vehicle " is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out"
The rule now only is triggered 'in the movement phase'.