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2012/01/24 21:33:11
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
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rigeld2 wrote:
AKA - can you sweep St. C?
Yes, because she has no rule that overrides sweeping advance.
It's really very simple. In order to not be destroyed by a sweeping advance, you would have to have a rule that starts with, "If [the unit] is caught by a sweeping advance, it is not destroyed...".
In the absence of that or similar wording, any unit in any army caught by a sweeping advance is destroyed.
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I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
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2012/01/24 21:35:17
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.
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2012/01/24 21:45:41
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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The Hive Mind
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nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.
Devils advocate: The ability doesn't save the unit. The unit is destroyed. SA is satisfied. I now roll to come back.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/01/24 21:49:10
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Huge Bone Giant
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That is not being devil's advocate.
SA destroyed the unit.
You cannot use a special rule that never mentions SA to un-destroy said unit.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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2012/01/24 21:52:30
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
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rigeld2 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.
Devils advocate: The ability doesn't save the unit. The unit is destroyed. SA is satisfied. I now roll to come back.
Main rules under sweeping advance 4th sentence, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."
You remove the unit. Now SA is satisfied. No special rule can rescue them.
RP and EL are special rules. They cannot rescue the unit.
All the kings models and all the kings counters are removed...immediately.
For them, the battle is over.
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I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
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2012/01/24 21:57:05
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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The Hive Mind
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kirsanth wrote:That is not being devil's advocate.
SA destroyed the unit.
You cannot use a special rule that never mentions SA to un-destroy said unit.
Actually, it is. I do think that SA overrides everything. I'm coming up with potential things that someone would use to argue against that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate
SA destroys the unit. SA is satisfied. You can even go fight another assault or two.
End of the phase comes - SA is still in effect?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/01/24 22:05:55
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
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rigeld2 wrote:
SA destroys the unit. SA is satisfied. You can even go fight another assault or two.
End of the phase comes - SA is still in effect?
When a unit is swept, it is destroyed and immediately removed.
Sweeping advance is not an effect, it is an event that takes place when a specific set of conditions are satisfied.
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I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
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2012/01/24 22:09:03
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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The Hive Mind
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time wizard wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
SA destroys the unit. SA is satisfied. You can even go fight another assault or two.
End of the phase comes - SA is still in effect?
When a unit is swept, it is destroyed and immediately removed.
Sweeping advance is not an effect, it is an event that takes place when a specific set of conditions are satisfied.
Right - congratulations. I've said that. SA removes the unit. Nothing stops this from happening.
When St. C is removed, a counter is placed. Cite the rule that stops this from happening.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/01/24 22:10:22
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Dakka Veteran
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kirsanth wrote:That is not being devil's advocate.
SA destroyed the unit.
You cannot use a special rule that never mentions SA to un-destroy said unit.
There's no such thing as "un-destroy" - not even when EL interacts with regular wounding (un-wounding?).
There is such a thing as being destroyed, placing a counter, and rolling for the counter. The question is whether being "destroyed" = "removed as a casualty." GW has never been consistent with verbiage, so that's anyone's guess I believe.
time wizard wrote:rigeld2 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.
Devils advocate: The ability doesn't save the unit. The unit is destroyed. SA is satisfied. I now roll to come back.
Main rules under sweeping advance 4th sentence, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."
You remove the unit. Now SA is satisfied. No special rule can rescue them.
RP and EL are special rules. They cannot rescue the unit.
All the kings models and all the kings counters are removed...immediately.
For them, the battle is over.
This depends on what a special rule that "rescues" them is exactly. There's no such thing as far as we know.
Is it something that prevents SA only, or something that allows SA to happen and then later, in a completely unrelated event, brings the model back?
My curiousity would like to know how SA's wording compares to that of removing models from play as casualties from wounding.
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2012/01/24 22:10:39
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Huge Bone Giant
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That rule is over-writing the destruction by SA without mentioning it being allowed to.
That is not allowed. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.
Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/24 22:12:20
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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2012/01/24 22:12:38
Subject: Re:Everliving and sweeping advance
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Dakka Veteran
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This feels like it could take a turn toward the philosophical - if something is destroyed and brought back, was it ever really destroyed? 
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2012/01/24 22:14:05
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Confessor Of Sins
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rigeld2 wrote:AKA - can you sweep St. C?
No, since she's Fearless.
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2012/01/24 22:16:36
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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The Hive Mind
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Spetulhu wrote:rigeld2 wrote:AKA - can you sweep St. C?
No, since she's Fearless.
... Good call. I'll drop the argument then because the point is moot. At least until GW change RFP/destroyed to mean the same thing as RFPaaC.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/01/24 22:17:50
Subject: Re:Everliving and sweeping advance
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Huge Bone Giant
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somerandomdude wrote:This feels like it could take a turn toward the philosophical - if something is destroyed and brought back, was it ever really destroyed?
Exalted.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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2012/01/24 22:18:07
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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The Hive Mind
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kirsanth wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.
Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.
The unit is not rescued - SA does it's thing by destroying the unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/01/24 22:45:16
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Confessor Of Sins
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Well, actually you might Sweep St.C - if she's joined a non-Fearless unit that gets swept. She no longer imparts that Fearless on them. :-(
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2012/01/24 22:53:28
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:kirsanth wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.
Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.
The unit is not rescued - SA does it's thing by destroying the unit.
No, the unit still exists in potentia, therefore you HAVE saved the unit
An Overlord is Swept and destroyed. By placing the counter you are ATTEMPTING to save the unit - because if you pass the EL roll you will have regained the lost unit.
You cannot do this, because RP / EL do not specify that you can.
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2012/01/24 22:57:02
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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The Hive Mind
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nosferatu1001 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:kirsanth wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.
Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.
The unit is not rescued - SA does it's thing by destroying the unit.
No, the unit still exists in potentia, therefore you HAVE saved the unit
I think that's reaching a little bit... but I don't disagree philosophically.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/01/25 00:16:13
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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kirsanth wrote:Sweeping advance states that it is only capable of being ignored by rules that specifically mention Sweeping Advance being overruled/ignored.
Can you cite this please? Page, paragraph, line.
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The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen
~2300pts  Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts  Black Templar
DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+ |
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2012/01/25 00:17:46
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Huge Bone Giant
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-Cypher- wrote:Can you cite this please? Page, paragraph, line.
Page 30 of the main rules, first bullet point, last sentence.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/25 00:18:29
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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2012/01/25 00:18:29
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
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-Cypher- wrote:kirsanth wrote:Sweeping advance states that it is only capable of being ignored by rules that specifically mention Sweeping Advance being overruled/ignored.
Can you cite this please? Page, paragraph, line.
Main Rules, page 40, paragraph 4 (first bullet point), 8th line, " Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule canrescue the unit at this stage..." {emphasis mine}
Okay?
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I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
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2012/01/25 00:20:42
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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Page 40 of the AoBR book. Thank you.
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The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen
~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar
DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+ |
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2012/01/25 00:22:22
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Huge Bone Giant
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Erp.
Mis-typed the page - but not editing it so I can have a simultaneous update with time wizard. ^^
The page numbers are the same in both books though.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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2012/01/25 00:22:49
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
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-Cypher- wrote:Page 40 of the AoBR book. Thank you.
You're welcome!
And the pages are the same in the hardcover book and the AoBR book for the rules section.
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I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
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2012/01/25 00:23:21
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Huge Bone Giant
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It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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2012/01/25 00:24:13
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
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kirsanth wrote:It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!
Not the first time this has happened kirsanth! 
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I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
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2012/01/25 00:24:37
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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kirsanth wrote:It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!
YEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, couldn't help myself.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/25 00:24:56
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/01/25 00:35:50
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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kirsanth wrote:It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!
Obligatory "ZING!"
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The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen
~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar
DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+ |
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2012/01/25 01:09:26
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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nosferatu1001 wrote:It DOES NOT MATTER if you are destroyed, removed from play, etc
SA does not let you save the unit via a special rule (so, RP then) UNLESS the rule SPECIFIES it saves you from SA
ATSKNF specifies it saves you from SA
RP does not save you from SA You missed my point. RP/EL can never save you from a sweeping advance, nor does it prevent it in any way, shape, or form. Therefore, the specific wording that states special rules do not prevent sweeping advance unless explicitly mentioned is irrelevant. Therefore, the only thing to consider is whether or not you are allowed to place the EL counter, and in this case that is debatable based on the wording of the new Necron FAQ entry.
edit:
Like I said, I don't agree with that wording, but it is a possible (if stretched) interpretation. Come 6th edition, however, it will be the correct one (assuming the leaked rules are true and sweeping advance does trigger on-death effects).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/25 01:21:29
W/L/D:  9/4/8  Under Construction |
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2012/01/25 04:04:00
Subject: Everliving and sweeping advance
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Interesting, I think Fox is suggesting that SA destroys the unit, but that the EL counter is placed and rolled for. Placing the EL counter and rolling for it is not a save or special rule to avoid. The unit is destroyed, but the character might come back. I'll think about it.
Follow up question. A royal court character dies at INIT 3 but the squad is not wiped, the EL counter is placed. The necrons lose combat, fail their morale test, and lose the Initiative test, thus destroyed due to SA. What happens to the EL counter from earlier? I know RP counters are removed if the unit is swept. I know EL counters are rolled for like RP counters. Are they removed like RP counters?
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"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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