Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think, unless their an IC, they die to the sweeping advance. IC aren't technically part of the squad.

Sweeping advance destroys the unit.

If an IC is joined to a unit, and the unit gets swept, the IC is destroyed along with the rest of the unit.

Since neither RP nor EL specifically says they work against sweeping advance, then they don't.

I have cited the SA rule, and the part that says, "Unless otherwise specified..." four times now.

If anyone still thinks that either RP or EL saves a unit from a sweeping advance, please quote me the part of the rule that specifies that it does.

I'm not saying they don't die to SA. I'm saying it possible that being destroyed by SA does not necessary preclude also being returned to play by means of Ever Living. I'm not even sure I think that yet, but that's what I'm considering.

I'm still interested in hearing opinions on whether or not an EL counter generated before the SA is removed by the SA. That would be helpful to know.

Oh lord help me... but I’ll throw in...
First off... Where does it say SA Removes from play... my book just says Destroyed.
Now granted it says nothing else can be used at this "stage" but EL is used at the end of the Phase, not at that point in time, it is used at the end of all other assaults, Consolidation moves...

Continuing on… the only difference between St C and EL is when it is rolled and 5+ vrs 4+…
Lukas the Trickster… his special rule REMOVES FROM PLAY, and they FAQ to say anything that allows a “return to play” ability works… in the faq it says it is odd but it works….

I mean those of you that are saying SA kills EL completely without a EL roll … what happens if you kill the whole squad and all that is left is the EL counter?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW I can not find the rules for "Removed from play" any where... can someone tell me where that rule is at? I would like to read where the diffrence is between Removed as a casualty and Removed from play.

arch1angel - no, Lukas does NOT remove from play, it removes rfom play AS A CASUALTY. Read the whole rule next time.

Removed from play is not a defined rule, but works perfectly in English. So it works.

Finally - EL CANNOT save the unit from Sweeping Advance. The Unit (The EL IC, as an example) COULD COME BACK, if you place an EL counter, thus you are ATTEMPTING to save the unit - and NOTHING in RP says it works against SA, so it doesnt.

If you wish to claim you can save the unit (as in, the unit is destroyed and then comes back) please find a rule actually allowing it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Finally - EL CANNOT save the unit from Sweeping Advance.

You make a good point that no save can stop a sweeping advance from destroying the unit unless specifically noted in the special abilities' rules. EL does not specially note anything of the sort. Thankfully that is not the point I was trying to make. What I am asking people to consider, is what if SA does destroy the unit, but does not forbid an EL roll for it to come back. In your discussion, refer to "save" when I think you mean "rescue." Save has a very specific meaning in 40k.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The Unit (The EL IC, as an example) COULD COME BACK, if you place an EL counter, thus you are ATTEMPTING to save the unit - and NOTHING in RP says it works against SA, so it doesnt. If you wish to claim you can save the unit (as in, the unit is destroyed and then comes back) please find a rule actually allowing it.

The rule that might allow it is Ever Living. RP clearly does not (IMO). But EL is debatable. I think it's fairly clear that EL allows for a model to come back from the whole unit being destroyed. I think that while we are talking about rules that are not defined but clear in English we should remember that "removed from play" is not the same thing as "removed from the game"

Finally, I think a better and more productive question is not "does EL allow the character to come back from SA?" but "does SA stop EL from working?" Looking at the language of SA on p40 BRB, I see that "The destroyed unit is removed immediately.
Unless otherwise specified , no save or other special
rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the
battle is over."

For me, the more convincing part is the last clause, "for them the battle is over" It sounds fluffish, but seems like pretty strong language in favor of no coming back.

@nosferatu - I'm not saying you're wrong. I just want to understand it a bit better and be sure.

kirsanth wrote:

bagtagger wrote:What are you talking about?

The actual rules, how about you?

Obvious Troll is Obvious

foolishmortal wrote:
I'm still interested in hearing opinions on whether or not an EL counter generated before the SA is removed by the SA. That would be helpful to know.

I agree, I would love to know what everyone thinks about this.

I believe there was consensus on this issue a few weeks back but I cannot find the thread, I think it was started by Jy2.

In any case the question is basically If a cryptek was destroyed and left an ever living token during combat and then his unit was swept could he make his ever living roll. I believe the Necron Codex only references removing RP Tokens when falling back not EL Tokens but I could be wrong.

Either way if you sweep the rest of the Necrons its pretty easy to stand on one or two EL Tokens to keep them down anyway, so not the most useful thing in any case.

Icemyn wrote:In any case the question is basically If a cryptek was destroyed and left an ever living token during combat and then his unit was swept could he make his ever living roll.

No, he could not, and here is why.

If a model with EL was joined to a unit when removed as a casualty, and passes its EL roll, it must be placed in coherency with that unit when it returns. Why? Because it is still considered a part of the unit. If it were not considered a part of the unit, then it would return within 3" of the counter just like a character that had not joined a unit.

So, a Cryptek joins a unit of 6 warriors. The Cryptek is removed as a casualty and an EL counter is placed. Now 3 warriors are also removed. So 3 RP counters are placed. The remaining 3 warriors get swept. Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Now on the flip side, say you have that same unit, 6 warriors and a Cryptek. The Cryptek is removed as a casualty and an EL counter is placed. Now the remining warriors are also removed. No RP counters are placed because the warriors have been wiped out. But the FAQ says then when the unit is wiped out, which in this case they were, you still get to roll EL for the Cryptek. Because you can't sweeping advance a unit that has been removed.

time wizard wrote:Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Rules basis for this please.

I know GW e-mails are worth less then a ha'penny here, but I did e-mail them this question a couple of days ago. If they ever reply, I'll let you know what was said, if you are curious.

rigeld2 wrote:

time wizard wrote:Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Rules basis for this please.

time wizard wrote:Sweeping advance destroys the unit.

If an IC is joined to a unit, and the unit gets swept, the IC is destroyed along with the rest of the unit.

Since neither RP nor EL specifically says they work against sweeping advance, then they don't.

I have cited the SA rule, and the part that says, "Unless otherwise specified..." four times now.

If anyone still thinks that either RP or EL saves a unit from a sweeping advance, please quote me the part of the rule that specifies that it does.

so nos...
what is the diffrence between
Removes from play
removes from play as casulty
wiped out
dies to failed armor save

?? and rules to define the diffrence? to me they all mean the same thing

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

time wizard wrote:Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Rules basis for this please.

time wizard wrote:Sweeping advance destroys the unit.

If an IC is joined to a unit, and the unit gets swept, the IC is destroyed along with the rest of the unit.

Since neither RP nor EL specifically says they work against sweeping advance, then they don't.

I have cited the SA rule, and the part that says, "Unless otherwise specified..." four times now.

If anyone still thinks that either RP or EL saves a unit from a sweeping advance, please quote me the part of the rule that specifies that it does.

Sigh...

Nothing is saving the unit from SA. Nothing. Not one rule. The entire unit is destroyed. Congratulations.

What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

rigeld2 wrote:Sigh...

Nothing is saving the unit from SA. Nothing. Not one rule. The entire unit is destroyed. Congratulations.

What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

That's not the point.

What is specifically telling you that you that if a model with the EL rule is caught in a sweeping advance that the EL counter is not removed and the roll is made anyway?

Nothing in either RP or EL says that the counters are not removed when the unit is swept.

That's what "Unless otherwise specified" means.

rigeld2 wrote:
What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

What is telling you that EL can 'save' a unit that has been removed via sweeping advance?

Edit: TimeWizard beat me to the punch, he is so sneaky!

So, if the Necron unit is completely destroyed via attacks made during the close combat phase, all of them can come back, but if they -aren't- all killed, and fail a leadership test, they can't come back? Doesn't make much sense to me.

We've always played it that all the various "removed from play", "removed as a casualty" etc etc, mean the same thing: kill the model. It simplifies many things, and there are fewer arguments. Obviously you can't apply a house rule in a tournament, but it works for us.

Someone raised a good point before, as well, in that if the character in question got killed -before- everyone else, and an EL counter was placed, does the counter still count as part of the unit for the purposes of Sweeping Advance? In which case, would the counter be removed with the unit?

time wizard wrote:

No, he could not, and here is why.

If a model with EL was joined to a unit when removed as a casualty, and passes its EL roll, it must be placed in coherency with that unit when it returns. Why? Because it is still considered a part of the unit. If it were not considered a part of the unit, then it would return within 3" of the counter just like a character that had not joined a unit.

Whether or not it returns to a unit or not it is still considered part of the unit. It can still return on its own as per the FAQ.

time wizard wrote:
So, a Cryptek joins a unit of 6 warriors. The Cryptek is removed as a casualty and an EL counter is placed. Now 3 warriors are also removed. So 3 RP counters are placed. The remaining 3 warriors get swept. Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Where does it say that you remove the EL Counter? I understand that you remove RP because there are none of those models left so they are obviously removed as well as they are removed for the unit falling back.
I cant find any rules that say you remove the EL Counter.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Sigh...

Nothing is saving the unit from SA. Nothing. Not one rule. The entire unit is destroyed. Congratulations.

What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

That's not the point.

What is specifically telling you that you that if a model with the EL rule is caught in a sweeping advance that the EL counter is not removed and the roll is made anyway?

Nothing in either RP or EL says that the counters are not removed when the unit is swept.

That's what "Unless otherwise specified" means.

I've stopped arguing that I can EL from SA - that's not worth my time.
An EL model dies at init 4. It places an EL counter. The necron unit gets swept.
What gives you permission to remove that EL counter?

rigeld2 wrote:What gives you permission to remove that EL counter?

The best argument I have read without refute is you are not allowed to place one since that gives an attempt to save the unit/model.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:What gives you permission to remove that EL counter?

The best argument I have read without refute is you are not allowed to place one since that gives an attempt to save the unit/model.

Re-read what I wrote. If the EL counter is placed before the assault is resolved (IE - when you do sweeping advance) what gives you permission to remove that counter?

Oh, I did mis-read. Thank you.

Then the fact that the counter is for a special rule to save the unit from SA's destruction.

It does not change that its token rescues it from said destruction by saying its ok because it was after-the-fact. In fact, it would be awkward to call it 'rescue' if it wasn't afterward.

editing to add:
You do not rescue someone from a fire before the fire happens. You do so after it starts, and even completely after-the-fact.

kirsanth wrote:It does not change that its token rescues it from said destruction by saying its ok because it was after-the-fact. In fact, it would be awkward to call it 'rescue' if it wasn't afterward.

But nothing did rescue the unit. SA wiped all the models that are on the board, off the board.

Does it change it's an IC EL counter?

I doubt it, but it has a bit of a better case.

Either way, you are rescuing a unit from the destruction by SA. Saying it is ok because it is later in the phase/game is ridiculous to me.

/shrug

i have played this and with the same thing.. cryptek with 7 warriors.. Space Marine assult squad assaults the unit.. chop chop chop... ( as a necron player i know sweeping advances are my biggest weakness and almost a always going to happen. sooooo when i am removing my Casualties during this phase I make sure, and remove my cyptek as a casualty and place a EL token down first.. This Action Triggers the EL rule because I removed him as a Casualty during the Chop chop chop part. Then I end up losing like 4 warriors.. I place the RP markers down for the warriors.. then the phase is over..i’ve lost the combat .. I roll for LD with -4 modif.. Normally failing.. and then loose the remaining 3 models to Sweep Advance once that happen. I then remove the 4 RP markers because the RP rule says that if this happens, I have to remove the RP Markers. but I do not Remove the EL marker because the Cryptek is a IC with the EL rule and was removed as a Casualty during battle not during the SA.

So I feel to answer this question is really based on whether the necron player is smart enough to know what is going to happen and when and what he/she should anticipate happening. Now I will say that if the cryptek is left on the board and gets removed during the SA then that is the necron players fault and does not get the EL token. Be smart and know how to play your units.. everyone removes the IC last in battle because this is the space marine way.. "Remove the guy with the power fist last".. necrons need to think outside the box.. if you get assaulted.. Remove your IC first (crypteks only, i do not recomend this with over lords, named lords, destroyer lords) so you can try for an EL.. because you are probable going to get SA in close combat. So to me it’s a Tactic Necron players should learn.. if they let the IC get removed by SA then that’s their fault on why they don’t get EL.

Also keep in mind.. that Sweeping Advance happens after the Assault phase is done. also when i talk about this tactic, i'm refering to a unit of warriors with a cryptek. i do not practice this with over lords, named lords and " Assult Units " And that’s my two cents..lol.

Necronmike wrote: Also keep in mind.. that Sweeping Advance happens after the Assault phase is done.

I just wanted to address this point, because I've stated my position backed up by the rules quite clearly in this thred.

Have a look at page 33 in the main rulebook, at the assault Phase Summary.

Under '3 Resolve Combats'
1st bullet point is pick a combat
2nd bullet point is fight
3rd bullet point is determint results
4th bullet point is check morale
5th bullet point is sweeping advance
6th bullet point pile in
7th bullet point is pick another combat and repeat.

Sweeping advance does not take place when the assault phase is done, it takes place (if it occurs) during each particular combat.

time wizard wrote:

Necronmike wrote: Also keep in mind.. that Sweeping Advance happens after the Assault phase is done.

I just wanted to address this point, because I've stated my position backed up by the rules quite clearly in this thred.

Have a look at page 33 in the main rulebook, at the assault Phase Summary.

Under '3 Resolve Combats'
1st bullet point is pick a combat
2nd bullet point is fight
3rd bullet point is determint results
4th bullet point is check morale
5th bullet point is sweeping advance
6th bullet point pile in
7th bullet point is pick another combat and repeat.

Sweeping advance does not take place when the assault phase is done, it takes place (if it occurs) during each particular combat.

Point taken.. didn't pay close enough attention to this.. but i don't think this effects on how i play the example above.

arch1angel wrote:so nos...
what is the diffrence between
Removes from play
removes from play as casulty
wiped out
dies to failed armor save

?? and rules to define the diffrence? to me they all mean the same thing

Remove from Play: The model is removed. Except for St. Celestine there is no way to come back from these abilities.
Remove From Play as a Casualty: The model is removed as if it has lost its last Wound. However, special abilities that come into effect off of losing last wound do not apply.
Wiped Out: Your opponent has no models left on the table at the end of a standard mission. If this happens before the final round, you win.
Dies from Wounds: The model is removed from play as a casualty, but anything that happens when you lose your last wound still apply.

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It does not change that its token rescues it from said destruction by saying its ok because it was after-the-fact. In fact, it would be awkward to call it 'rescue' if it wasn't afterward.

But nothing did rescue the unit. SA wiped all the models that are on the board, off the board.

Does it change it's an IC EL counter?

So, you have a unit A

It gets sweeping advanced, and is destroyed because the special rule does not state it isnt

You then try to roll to recover unit A, breaking the SA rule becausey ou have tried to save the unit using a special rle that does not specify it works against SA

It doesnt matter WHEN the unit reappears - you have tried to save a unit via a special rule that does not say it works against SA. This is against the rules. So while you dont remove the EL counter then per se, it is irrelevant as if you try to roll for EL you will be breaking a rule

nos, seeing as how I answered the question posed for you, do you mind checking/fixing my answers?