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Necronmike wrote:
Point taken.. didn't pay close enough attention to this.. but i don't think this effects on how i play the example above.

It does change how you play the example. Your answer to the rules question was 'if you play smart you can save an Everliving model' which presupposes you can save an Everliving model when its unit is subject to Sweeping advance. This is not an argument for taking the Everliving save at all. Generally speaking the idea is to 'break no rule unless given permission,' so when one rule says nothing can save the unit from SA unless specifically stated it can save it from SA and the other says you can save the unit with XYZ with no mention of SA, you are breaking the SA rule without permission to do so.

Happy - dont see a problem with the first couple, although may be worth saying that RfPlay as a Casualty is equivalent to remove as a casualty

On a side note,
Seeing as though this has been resolved many times in the thread (as in, the effects aren't triggered) i'll just say this side note.

I love how the necron folk now have something else to argue about when its gotten a new codex. I cant remember how many threads there has been on this topic before!

calypso2ts wrote:

Necronmike wrote:
Point taken.. didn't pay close enough attention to this.. but i don't think this effects on how i play the example above.

It does change how you play the example. Your answer to the rules question was 'if you play smart you can save an Everliving model' which presupposes you can save an Everliving model when its unit is subject to Sweeping advance. This is not an argument for taking the Everliving save at all. Generally speaking the idea is to 'break no rule unless given permission,' so when one rule says nothing can save the unit from SA unless specifically stated it can save it from SA and the other says you can save the unit with XYZ with no mention of SA, you are breaking the SA rule without permission to do so.

sorry i don't see how it changes any thing.. if i remove my cryptek as a "casualty" and place an EL token down and then the unit gets SA.. then the EL Token is still left because it does not go by the same rule as RP.. so yes after its said and done.. i get to attempt an EL roll. my cryptek was not removed off the board from the SA it was removed as a Casualty.. according to this thread, that alone is the Difference on how or what Removed the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now i will say this much.. what difference is one cryptek going to do against a unit of " what ever " that just destroyed them... not much chances are he will get killed agian.. unless you got VOD to get out of there

The effectiveness of the unit you have tried to save is entirely irrelevant.

You have attempted to save the unit using a special rule. You cannot do this against SA, because your special rule does not specify it works against SA.

end of.

nosferatu1001 wrote:This is against the rules. So while you dont remove the EL counter then per se, it is irrelevant as if you try to roll for EL you will be breaking a rule

I do not disagree with you, in general.

I do not see that EL/RP/Thrawn/Whatever getting back up is an attempt to save the unit. The unit was wiped out.

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

And anything that puts it on the table after being wiped out has rescued it from that fate.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

And anything that puts it on the table after being wiped out has rescued it from that fate.

erm, no. The unit was wiped out. The winning unit was able to consolidate. The assault is over.

Or do you not get to consolidate if the unit you just slaughtered (ignoring SA for now) has EL counters on the ground?

I'd play it as SA > *, but I could absolutely see GW ruling the other way.

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

You keep saying that. Then saying it is ok to rescue said unit with a special rule because you do it later in the game.

I do not think that second bit is true.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

You keep saying that. Then saying it is ok to rescue said unit with a special rule because you do it later in the game.

I do not think that second bit is true.

You keep using the word rescue. I don't consider it a rescue if SA had it's effect. Rescue would be a save, a dodge, something to stop SA from working. SA worked. Nothing stopped it.

rigeld2 wrote: Rescue would be a save . . .

Then they would not have said save or rescue.
Rescuing someone from a situation requires that situation to occur.
Otherwise you are helping them avoid it or saving them from going through it.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: Rescue would be a save . . .

Then they would not have said save or rescue.
Rescuing someone from a situation requires that situation to occur.
Otherwise you are helping them avoid it or saving them from going through it.

Right. The situation occurs. SA happens. It is not stopped from happening. All models on the board are destroyed, and nothing can stop it.
Nothing stops it.
There's an EL counter to resolve.

rigeld2 wrote:There's an EL counter to resolve.

Putting a destroyed unit on the table is a very literal definition of rescuing them from that situation. Regardless of when it occurs.

Editing to add:
Just to be clear, I understand your point.
You do not need to repeat it, because you are wrong.

Feel free to agree/quote/reply with those last two lines without agreeing to the rest.

And assuming, you pass the EL roll, was the unit destroyed and immediately removed with the battle being over for them?

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:There's an EL counter to resolve.

Putting a destroyed unit on the table is a very literal definition of rescuing them from that situation. Regardless of when it occurs.

Editing to add:
Just to be clear, I understand your point.
You do not need to repeat it, because you are wrong.

Feel free to agree/quote/reply with those last two lines without agreeing to the rest.

a) I don't think it's clear that that argument is "wrong" but I'm willing to concede it.
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

If the Cryptek/Lord is a part of the unit, and that unit was destroyed by a Sweeping Advance, then the Cryptek/Lord must also be destroyed.
If he comes back, then that unit wasn't destroyed.

rigeld2 wrote:a) I don't think it's clear that that argument is "wrong" but I'm willing to concede it.

To be fair, me too - which is kind of what I meant with the edit.

rigeld2 wrote:
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

I have a bit of an odd opinion about some of that - which is why I said earlier that it has a better case.

If he was not joined at all, I can see no reason it even relates - if it was the issue gets into ICs counting as their own separate unit for CC and how you read that.
Most would say the IC is swept too.

rigeld2 wrote:
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

Main rules, page 49 under 'Independent Characters & Assaults', 2nd paragraph, last sentence, "Once all attacks have been made, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining asssault results onwards)."

When morale check is made, the IC is a normal member of the unit. If the unit gets swept and destroyed, then the IC as part of the unit is also destroyed.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:a) I don't think it's clear that that argument is "wrong" but I'm willing to concede it.

To be fair, me too - which is kind of what I meant with the edit.

At least I'm not alone

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

I have a bit of an odd opinion about some of that - which is why I said earlier that it has a better case.

If he was not joined at all, I can see no reason it even relates - if it was the issue gets into ICs counting as their own separate unit for CC and how you read that.
Most would say the IC is swept too.

Right - if he wasn't joined, it doesn't matter.

If he was standing when the SA is rolled, yes he's gone. 100%.
The issue is if he's only an EL counter when the SA is rolled.
His unit did not get swept. The unit he was joined to before he was killed was swept.
Him standing back up doesn't "rescue" that unit. It has absolutely nothing to do with that (the swept) unit.
edit: I suck at the quotez.

rigeld2 wrote:The issue is if he's only an EL counter when the SA is rolled.

This is most of why I disagree. Your special rule cannot save/rescue you regardless of when it occurs.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

Main rules, page 49 under 'Independent Characters & Assaults', 2nd paragraph, last sentence, "Once all attacks have been made, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining asssault results onwards)."

When morale check is made, the IC is a normal member of the unit. If the unit gets swept and destroyed, then the IC as part of the unit is also destroyed.

Yes - if he's still standing, you're right.

If he's down before the SA is he still a member of the unit? Even if so, does him standing violate SA (since he's not rescuing the unit)...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The issue is if he's only an EL counter when the SA is rolled.

This is most of why I disagree. Your special rule cannot save/rescue you regardless of when it occurs.

You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Necronmike wrote:
sorry i don't see how it changes any thing.. if i remove my cryptek as a "casualty" and place an EL token down and then the unit gets SA.. then the EL Token is still left because it does not go by the same rule as RP.. so yes after its said and done.. i get to attempt an EL roll. my cryptek was not removed off the board from the SA it was removed as a Casualty.. according to this thread, that alone is the Difference on how or what Removed the model.

Do I get a Kill Point for the unit if you bring back the Cryptek/Lord attached? If the answer is no, then you 'rescued' the unit. The unit has been destroyed by sweeping advance, it cannot be rescued. Rescuing an individual model in a swept unit so that the unit can still exists is still rescuing the unit.

Edit: Changed save to rescue to be consistent with the SA terminology.

Edit: I agree it is a more complex argument for an attached IC to the unit, although I think the same theory applies it definitely becomes muddier.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Ignoring SA - since I don't have the Necron codex...

Is an EL IC required to stand back up with the unit it was in before it was stabbed in the face?

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Ignoring SA - since I don't have the Necron codex...

Is an EL IC required to stand back up with the unit it was in before it was stabbed in the face?

Yes. The EL rule, second paragraph says if the model had joined a unit when it was removed and passes its roll, it must be returned to play incoherency with that unit.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Ignoring SA - since I don't have the Necron codex...

Is an EL IC required to stand back up with the unit it was in before it was stabbed in the face?

Yes. The EL rule, second paragraph says if the model had joined a unit when it was removed and passes its roll, it must be returned to play incoherency with that unit.

Very well. Thanks.

Unless the unit is wiped, then its within 3" of the marker. Per the FAQ.

calypso2ts wrote:

Necronmike wrote:
sorry i don't see how it changes any thing.. if i remove my cryptek as a "casualty" and place an EL token down and then the unit gets SA.. then the EL Token is still left because it does not go by the same rule as RP.. so yes after its said and done.. i get to attempt an EL roll. my cryptek was not removed off the board from the SA it was removed as a Casualty.. according to this thread, that alone is the Difference on how or what Removed the model.

Do I get a Kill Point for the unit if you bring back the Cryptek/Lord attached? If the answer is no, then you 'rescued' the unit. The unit has been destroyed by sweeping advance, it cannot be rescued. Rescuing an individual model in a swept unit so that the unit can still exists is still rescuing the unit.

Edit: Changed save to rescue to be consistent with the SA terminology.

Edit: I agree it is a more complex argument for an attached IC to the unit, although I think the same theory applies it definitely becomes muddier.

As a mater of Fact you do get a kill point for the unit even if i do bring back the Cryptek.. because that is a unit of its own.. so you should keep inmind.. that when you are battling Necrons and you kill a unit of warriors with a lord or cryptek attached.. you get two kill points for that not just one.

what gets me is all this is over can we use EL marker if a SA takes place.. but the real question is.. when did you Put the EL down? because if the model was still standing when the SA took place then no you don't get to put a EL marker down. but if he was killed before the SA took place then yes the EL marker is applyed and you get a chance at it after the enemy unit consolidates after the SA. all this to try and keep necrons down when they are designed to "get back up" this rest at the hands of the Necron player.. if the player has his lord or cryptek still standing when a SA happens.. then too bad for them you get no EL marker. on the other hand.. Removing your lord or cryptek before the SA is also a gamble.. because what happens if the SA never happens..and you are stuck in combat.. good luck rolling 5+ to get him back up . .you just lost your cryptek or lord.

Why is it a unit of its own?

the closest analogy we have is WG: you need to kill the WG+attached to unit to get the KP, as they are one unit.

It isnt a retinue.

Also: IT DOESNT MATTER WHEN THE EL MODEL DIES. If their unit is swept, they are DEAD. DESTROYED. GONE

Attempting to bring the unit back by rolling EL BREAKS A RULE

Necronmike wrote: but the real question is.. when did you Put the EL down?

Actually, the real question is, was the Cryptek part of the unit when the sweeping advance occurred?
If so, then when the unit was swept, the unit was destroyed, and that means every model in the unit!

Necronmike wrote:good luck rolling 5+ to get him back up . .you just lost your cryptek or lord.

Which really has nothing to do with sweeping advance.