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Crypteks and lords come from the Royal court and that is under the HQ section, so there for it is its own unit, even if it is attached to a unit of warriors.. Can a Cryptek leave its unit of warriors and join a unit of Immortals.. better yet can a Cryptek.. VOD a unit of warriors to a location ,, then next round leave the unit VOD to join a unit of Imortals or what ever? the answer is????? if yes then Crypteks and lords are thier own units you should count it as so.

There is no way you get two kill points for killing a unit of warriors who had a cryptec in it. They are not IC they are characters, they are sergent upgrades. If the Cryptek is alive then the unit confers no KP.

Wether or not you get back up from a SA, you definetly don't confer the additional point. (Honestly the simple answer is, kill your cryptek first when assaulted. Then it gets a EL roll either way.


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So if a unit is falling back, do you get EL rolls?

Necronmike wrote:As a mater of Fact you do get a kill point for the unit even if i do bring back the Cryptek.. because that is a unit of its own.. so you should keep inmind.. that when you are battling Necrons and you kill a unit of warriors with a lord or cryptek attached.. you get two kill points for that not just one.

Wrong. It's all one unit - the Crypteks aren't part of the royal court anymore, they're part of the warrior unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:As a mater of Fact you do get a kill point for the unit even if i do bring back the Cryptek.. because that is a unit of its own.. so you should keep inmind.. that when you are battling Necrons and you kill a unit of warriors with a lord or cryptek attached.. you get two kill points for that not just one.

Wrong. It's all one unit - the Crypteks aren't part of the royal court anymore, they're part of the warrior unit.

so what your saying is if i have a lord or cryptek join a unit of warriors, then he no longer belongs to the Royal Court? can you give me the section of the Codex that states this? i don't see where it says that if they join a unit they are not members of the Royal Court any more... maybe we should start a thread on this alone before we get off the current subject. lol

Well, they certainly arent members of the Royal Court UNIT any longer, are they?

well the Royal Court "Unit" no.. but does that mean he don't belong to the Royal Court? he becomes a basic warrior with special powers? i don't know guys i'm asking for help on this one.. would like to know how we get they are not part of the royal court any more.. i mean thats fine if it is so.. just mean i can stop giving two kill points to my one unit of warriors / crypteks.... and i think we getting away from subject on this thread maybe we should start a new thread about this?

So a wolf guard assigned to a unit is still a member of the wg unit?

No. The entire thing is ONE unit and ONE unit only.

Necronmike wrote:well the Royal Court "Unit" no.. but does that mean he don't belong to the Royal Court? he becomes a basic warrior with special powers? i don't know guys i'm asking for help on this one.. would like to know how we get they are not part of the royal court any more.. i mean thats fine if it is so.. just mean i can stop giving two kill points to my one unit of warriors / crypteks.... and i think we getting away from subject on this thread maybe we should start a new thread about this?

Go read the Space Wolf Pack Leader FAQ. Since that's the closest we have to a Royal Court as far as how to handle KP, you should follow that.

Also, no Crypteks and Lords can't leave a unit after joining it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So a wolf guard assigned to a unit is still a member of the wg unit?

No. The entire thing is ONE unit and ONE unit only.

ok how do we come up with this? and is it a rule in the big rule book? because i'm not seeing where the codex says that crypteks and lords that join a unit no longer belong to the Royal Court. need page number and spoon please lol

Necronmike wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So a wolf guard assigned to a unit is still a member of the wg unit?

No. The entire thing is ONE unit and ONE unit only.

ok how do we come up with this? and is it a rule in the big rule book? because i'm not seeing where the codex says that crypteks and lords that join a unit no longer belong to the Royal Court. need page number and spoon please lol

Necron Codex, page 90, says that a member of the royal court can split off and be assigned to lead a different unit. That only one member can join each unit. Then it ends with "Otherwise, they remain part of the Royal Court."

So a Cryptek or a Lord that splits off and joins a different unit is no longer part of the Royal Court.

think i found it.. pg 90 in codex.. under HQ and rolyal court. right above the Lord stats the last sentce states.. " only one member of the royal court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the royal court. ".. sooo no i only have to give one kill point with my warrior / cryptek unit


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@ time wizard.. we posted the same thing at the same time.. lol.. too funny.. yep it took me a double take and then it clicked .. thanks though


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but i think this is off the current thread subject lol

Necronmike wrote:think i found it.. pg 90 in codex.. under HQ and rolyal court. right above the Lord stats the last sentce states.. " only one member of the royal court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the royal court. ".. sooo no i only have to give one kill point with my warrior / cryptek unit

but i think this is off the current thread subject lol

Not really. In fact it re-affirms that the Cryptek or Lord is in fact a part of the joined unit. And if the unit they join is caught in a sweeping advance, then the unit is destroyed. Every member of the unit. And this naturally includes the Cryptek and/or the Lord. Even if they are 'down' awaiting a roll to return to life.

time wizard wrote:

Necronmike wrote:think i found it.. pg 90 in codex.. under HQ and rolyal court. right above the Lord stats the last sentce states.. " only one member of the royal court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the royal court. ".. sooo no i only have to give one kill point with my warrior / cryptek unit

but i think this is off the current thread subject lol

Not really. In fact it re-affirms that the Cryptek or Lord is in fact a part of the joined unit. And if the unit they join is caught in a sweeping advance, then the unit is destroyed. Every member of the unit. And this naturally includes the Cryptek and/or the Lord. Even if they are 'down' awaiting a roll to return to life.

hmmm strange that makes total since. not really sure i can argue that now known what i know about the Royal Court, reguardless if it has the EL special rule or not. strange enough that is logical..i'll have to wrap my head around this. good point Time Wizard.

I'm interested in the line " no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage . SA being the stage we are talking about , the last action in the assault phase .
The attempt to return an EL model is made at the end of the phase - after the SA is made , an argument could be made that this is a different stage , after all a save is not being attempted at the SA 'stage' .

I cant see a mention that an SA would remove a counter in the event of a sweeping advance .

Im not particularly arguing one way or the other - I can see the leaning of the majority consensus in this thread .

Dynamix wrote: I'm interested in the line " no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage . SA being the stage we are talking about , the last action in the assault phase .
The attempt to return an EL model is made at the end of the phase - after the SA is made , an argument could be made that this is a different stage , after all a save is not being attempted at the SA 'stage' .

Good point. So at the SA stage, the unit is destroyed. Removed from the table. All the remaining models and all the counters. This is before the end of the assault phase which is when any applicable RP or EL rolls would be made.
Makes no difference at all in the case of sweeping advance.

Dynamix wrote: I cant see a mention that an SA would remove a counter in the event of a sweeping advance .

Because it is not up to the SA rule had to mention each and every special rule. It is up to the special rule to specifically state that the sweeping attack rule does not apply to a particular army, model or unit.

Quick question. How far back did those EL counters fall back? Or more specifically, what was the result of the initiative test to see if they got swept? I know the RP counters are removed because the rules tell me to do so, but EL counters are not, as far as I can tell, a part of a unit. If they aren't subject to the start of the SA rule, why would they be affected by the end of it?

Some have refered to SA having special properties that I was unaware of. Other than the entry in the BRB is there something else you are referring to? FAQs? INAT? cite your source or post it here please.

The only special property that SA has is that the unit is destroyed. Not killed. Not removed from play. Not removed from play as a casualty. Destroyed. As in no longer a playable unit for the game. Unless the unit has a special rule that specifically tells you that it cannot be swept, or that something else happens if it is swept. Page 40.

calypso2ts wrote:

Do I get a Kill Point for the unit if you bring back the Cryptek/Lord attached? If the answer is no, then you 'rescued' the unit. The unit has been destroyed by sweeping advance, it cannot be rescued. Rescuing an individual model in a swept unit so that the unit can still exists is still rescuing the unit.

+1

Also, if the IC was attached to the unit at the beginning of the assault phase, then it is swept right along with the unit regardless of when it actually 'died'. I'm not entirely sure if this is correct, but IMO it just makes sense to apply it this way.

Happyjew wrote: Destroyed. As in no longer a playable unit for the game.

I agree that that is often the case for the context of "destroyed" in the BRB, "weapon destroyed" being the only major exception, and this probably falls under the category of "Unless otherwise specified [by a] special rule" as the rules that repair destroyed weapons are fairly specific and special.

I just don't see it defined that way in the BRB.
Lots of fluff support...
"for them the battle is over"
"We assume that the already demoralized foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing"
"scatters and deserts the battle"
That's why I was asking if there was some other ruling people were thinking of that I had missed.

If I had to define "destroyed" based on BRB context, I would say something like...
"Removed from the game as a result of an unspecified combination of death, crippling injury, equipment damage, demoralization, and general no-longer-usefulness. No ability may bring something destroyed back to game unless it is explicit stated that it works on destroyed things" That would clarify a lot.

I did come across an interesting point in trying to confirm / clarify all this. p95 BRB Deep strike Mishap table 1-2
"Terrible accident! Teleporting troops are
lost in the Warp, deep striking jump infantry
are shot down with their transport, or some
other suitably dramatic event occurs. The
entire unit is destroyed!"

I would not try to claim EL rolls from a deep strike mishap. i would see it as against RAW and RAI, but I'm willing to bet somewhere, someone already has tried it.

how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

I am leaning strongly towards NO. EL does not specify that it brings a model back from destroyed. The whole unit is destroyed in a SA. The dead model with EL is still part of the unit (not on the table, but still part of the unit) Dying doesn't remove you from a unit, otherwise Ghost Ark's Repair Barge ability would never work.

Hukoseft wrote:how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

You do get EL, because you only remove RP counters. Unless you are one of the creative few who think you remove all counters of any kind.

Fleeing from a panic check is not the same as being destroyed by SA, either. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges here

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

You do get EL, because you only remove RP counters. Unless you are one of the creative few who think you remove all counters of any kind.

Fleeing from a panic check is not the same as being destroyed by SA, either. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges here

not entirely, IF the EL token is made during the attacks ie gets killed before combat resolution then where does it say you remove the token during SA?

Hukoseft wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

You do get EL, because you only remove RP counters. Unless you are one of the creative few who think you remove all counters of any kind.

Fleeing from a panic check is not the same as being destroyed by SA, either. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges here

not entirely, IF the EL token is made during the attacks ie gets killed before combat resolution then where does it say you remove the token during SA?

You have it backwards. Where in the EL rule does it say if the unit is destroyed by SA that the counter is not removed?

time wizard wrote:You have it backwards. Where in the EL rule does it say if the unit is destroyed by SA that the counter is not removed?

Not true.
Permissive rule set. I had permission to place the counter. Where is the permission to clear the counter?

I've already had this argument, I'm just addressing this mis-statement.

rigeld2 wrote:

time wizard wrote:You have it backwards. Where in the EL rule does it say if the unit is destroyed by SA that the counter is not removed?

Not true.
Permissive rule set. I had permission to place the counter. Where is the permission to clear the counter?

I've already had this argument, I'm just addressing this mis-statement.

Yes, permissive ruleset.

"Unless otherwise specified, nosave or other special rule can rescue the unit..."

Where is the permission in EL to not remove the counter when the unit is destroyed by a sweeping advance?

but the counter is placed before SA comes into place, RP states that you remove it when a unit flees (aka triggering SA), EL does not therefore why would you remove it?

time wizard wrote:Where is the permission in EL to not remove the counter when the unit is destroyed by a sweeping advance?

EL counters can be rolled for when the unit is destroyed.
SA destroys units.
Does SA have any permission to remove counters?
RP counters are removed because RP says to remove them.
EL counters aren't removed when the rest of the unit is destroyed.

Hukoseft wrote:but the counter is placed before SA comes into place, RP states that you remove it when a unit flees (aka triggering SA), EL does not therefore why would you remove it?

Because it would 'save' the unit. If the unit is on the board any time after it is swept, it has been 'saved', which is disallowed by the SA rule.