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Seriously - if you're going to continue to try and argue that you can come back after SA you need to read the entire thread. As far as I know every possibility has been covered.

Lordhat wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:but the counter is placed before SA comes into place, RP states that you remove it when a unit flees (aka triggering SA), EL does not therefore why would you remove it?

Because it would 'save' the unit. If the unit is on the board any time after it is swept, it has been 'saved', which is disallowed by the SA rule.

that is a bit of a reach, SA does not say that, it says that the unit is destroyed....yes well that model doesn't exist atm but a counter saying it can resurrect does, nowhere does it say this counter is removed (counters dont get destroyed see)

RP says to remove when unit flees, EL does not therefore you dont, the SA doesn't actually come into play here

model with EL dies....generates EL token

some models with RP die, the generate RP tokens

that unit loses combat and flees, all RP tokens are removed

the rest of the unit gets caught in sweeping advance

EL states it can still be tested for if the unit has been destroyed...test for EL (and most likely fail because you needed one more higher )





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rigeld2 wrote:Seriously - if you're going to continue to try and argue that you can come back after SA you need to read the entire thread. As far as I know every possibility has been covered.

if the model was alive when the unit flees and gets SA then its removed, if it dies before fleeing (causing the EL token to be generated) then it can test to come back

rigeld2 wrote:
EL counters aren't removed when the rest of the unit is destroyed.

If a character with EL is joined to a unit and makes its EL roll, it must be placed back in coherency with the unit. Clearly it is still part of the unit.

The Necron FAQ does indeed say if the entire unit gets wiped out, the character can make an EL roll.

But there are many ways to get wiped out. By riding in a flat out skimmer that gets wrecked in its movement phase, by being shot to death, but being crushed in an assault.

But SA says 2 important things. First is that the entire unit is destroyed and second that to avoid this fate, the special rule has to specifically state that it negates or overrides SA.
As was previously stated, all variants of space marine ATSKNF specifically say they are not destroyed if caught by a sweeping advance.

Neither RP, not EL nor even the latest FAQ specifically state that any of these roll may be taken if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance.

If a future addendum or FAQ comes out saying so, I'll be the first to bring it to everyone's attention. But for now, none of the items I mentioned say anything at all about SA, so they do not negate being destroyed by SA.

Hukoseft wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously - if you're going to continue to try and argue that you can come back after SA you need to read the entire thread. As far as I know every possibility has been covered.

if the model was alive when the unit flees and gets SA then its removed, if it dies before fleeing (causing the EL token to be generated) then it can test to come back

Covered that. You must have missed it.

but its not being subjugated to SA, the rest of the unit which is being destroyed is, its not saving itself from a SA, its saving itself from being killed but the preceding attack

if there is no unit left it gets placed within 3" of the token it generated

time wizard wrote:If a future addendum or FAQ comes out saying so, I'll be the first to bring it to everyone's attention. But for now, none of the items I mentioned say anything at all about SA, so they do not negate being destroyed by SA.

Agreed. Spelling it out the way you did in this post helps. Simply stating it the way you did when I commented did not.

based on the EL rule and how the Royal Court is.. if your unit gets sweep away.. you then remove RP counters as well because there is no more warriors left.. but then you can't EL either because, EL rule says that if your model is attached to the unit then it must return to that unit.. and if the unit is not there because of SA .. then you can't place your EL charcter back in the unit so there for you remove from play... look at first sentence of EL rule.. that says if the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty and the roll was passed it must return to play with a single wound in coherency with that unit as explained in RP rules... then look at second to last sentence .. . if the returning model cannot be placed, for what ever reason , it is lost and does not return.. this is because when the SA happen and you lost your RP markers there is no more unit to join there for it can't be placed. .. as much as i would like to come back from a EL roll.. the codex isn't going to let me.. (sucks) maybe it will get FAQ next time.. but look at PG2 of BRB .. "the most important rule" is what i like..lol

GW uses the word "Destroyed"is used in a in a limited set of contexts in the 5th ed BRB

Sweeping advance
Vehicle damage
Fleeing and trapped
Deep strike mishap

It's not used in reference to shooting casualties or normal assault casualties. There seems to be a need for a specific rule to allow a destroyed BLANK to be returned to the game from being destroyed.

hey every one.. hmmm this has been FAQ... Necron Official Update version 2.0 page number 1.. second row.. last Q and A.. it states..

Q: if an entire unit , including an attached character from a royal court, is wiped out, do you get to make any reanimation protocol rolls? (p29)

A: you would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out...

so yes to the EL after SA.

Necronmike wrote:hey every one.. hmmm this has been FAQ... Necron Official Update version 2.0 page number 1.. second row.. last Q and A.. it states..

Q: if an entire unit , including an attached character from a royal court, is wiped out, do you get to make any reanimation protocol rolls? (p29)

A: you would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out...

so yes to the EL after SA.

Except that question has nothing to do with SA. Keep trying.

why wouldn't it? SA wipes out a unit


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i think SA wipes out a unit.. that is it in the RAW. FAQ doesnt say how the unit has to be wiped out just says that wiped out.


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or is this going to be one of those things were we start digging into the BRB to see how the word " wiped out " is used and if since SA don't say wiped out then you can't .. hmmm i'll refer back to BRB page 2 " The Most Important Rule "

so this FAQ cleared it up .. thanks GW !!

there is a forum rule here that trumps p2

Tenants of You Make the Call
#7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

p2 is contextually specific to keeping the game going and not getting bogged down by lengthy rule analysis. Dakka YMTC is all about those things

Necronmike wrote:why wouldn't it? SA wipes out a unit


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i think SA wipes out a unit.. that is it in the RAW. FAQ doesnt say how the unit has to be wiped out just says that wiped out.


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or is this going to be one of those things were we start digging into the BRB to see how the word " wiped out " is used and if since SA don't say wiped out then you can't .. hmmm i'll refer back to BRB page 2 " The Most Important Rule "

so this FAQ cleared it up .. thanks GW !!

In case you mised this.

time wizard wrote:
If a character with EL is joined to a unit and makes its EL roll, it must be placed back in coherency with the unit. Clearly it is still part of the unit.

The Necron FAQ does indeed say if the entire unit gets wiped out, the character can make an EL roll.

But there are many ways to get wiped out. By riding in a flat out skimmer that gets wrecked in its movement phase, by being shot to death, but being crushed in an assault.

But SA says 2 important things. First is that the entire unit is destroyed and second that to avoid this fate, the special rule has to specifically state that it negates or overrides SA.
As was previously stated, all variants of space marine ATSKNF specifically say they are not destroyed if caught by a sweeping advance.

Neither RP, not EL nor even the latest FAQ specifically state that any of these roll may be taken if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance.

If a future addendum or FAQ comes out saying so, I'll be the first to bring it to everyone's attention. But for now, none of the items I mentioned say anything at all about SA, so they do not negate being destroyed by SA.

hmmm ok Time.. yeah i didn't get that second post. dang it..lol

The unit is destroyed

The counter coudl restore the unit, therefore the counter must also go

Seriously, this isnt difficult. Does you special rule say you can survive SA? No? Well guess what - you dont.

As for the fluff - the unit isn't necessarily dead, just so shook up or shattered that they can't rejoin the battle. The EL guy might well get up again, just not in any shape or frame of mind to go back to the battle.

The only hole in your argument time wizard (and for the record I agree with you) is that you've not proven that a model with EL is in fact avoiding anything.

SA is successfully resolved against the model from start to finish. It just gets a chance to get back up AFTER. It's not avoiding the effect, it goes all the way to fruition. There is no rule in EL that states that it 'avoids' SA. It dies outright to it just like any model.

What you really should be focusing on is that it did not die 'as a casualty' which is really what prevents it from getting up from SA.

KP/VP issues are avoided as a result of the unit not being rescued.

In addition to the rest.

The kp/vp issue can occur outside of sweep so that doesn't really add anything

Not entirely outside, because of FAQs and such.


The if/then of those conflate parts of denying them.

Barring all of that, saying that it is ok to rescue a unit because you waited 10seconds is still ridiculous since you cannot rescue a unit without mentioning SA.

Editing to add:
And I do equate putting a destroyed unit back onto the table with it being rescued from whatever said it was destroyed.

Again, it depends on your definition of rescue.

In my mind at least, rescue means 'to prevent from coming to harm'

Nothing in the Necron codex is stopping SA from completing. In fact, the EL roll doesn't even happen inside the combat, but rather at the end of the phase.

Like I've said, I agree with the wording that SA prevents EL, but only in the sense that SA does not 'remove as a casualty' and therefore no EL counter is generated.

Just to point it out, again, EL only functions on models that have already been removed from the game, and by that definition it implies that SA has already successfully completed its entire effect at that point. The unit was not saved, it was removed from play. In the case of the EL model, the model is gone, there just happens to be a counter placed on the table (assuming that SA allows the counter to be placed, which it does not).

From there, at the end of the phase, you roll for the counter since it was not removed with the unit in the SA, and the model that counter represents gets back up.

Again, I agree with the wording that SA does not currently allow for EL to function, but only in the sense that it does not permit the counter to be placed initially.

Until then, this is just yet another item that needs to be added to the Necron FAQ.

WanderingFox wrote:From there, at the end of the phase, you roll for the counter since it was not removed with the unit in the SA, and the model that counter represents gets back up.

Again, I agree with the wording that SA does not currently allow for EL to function, but only in the sense that it does not permit the counter to be placed initially.

Until then, this is just yet another item that needs to be added to the Necron FAQ.

Ahah! Here we diverge. EL allows the counter to be placed. So, in fact does SA. That is not the issue.

Follow if you will an example.

A Cryptek is joined to a unit of 8 warriors.

In the shooting phase another unit, really doesn't matter who, but a unit with assault weapons, shoots the Cryptek/warrior unit and after the smoke clears 3 warriors are down. So 3 warrior models are removed and 3 RP counters are placed next to the unit.

Now in the Assault phase that same unit assaults the Cryptek/warrior unit. And in the assault, the Cryptek and 2 warriors go down. Now 2 more RP counters are placed next to the unit, and an EL counter is placed where the Cryptek was removed, since it has the EL rule.

The Cryptek/warrior unit failed inflict any wounds in return, so the other unit won the combat by 3 wounds. The Cryptek/warrior unit takes a morale test and rolls a 9, more than the 7 needed to pass. The 2 units will now roll a D6 and add their I value. The Cryptek/warrior unit does not roll high enough and is caught in a sweeping advance.

This unit is now destroyed. All of the models in the unit are removed. All of the counters, which reresent models that may be returned to the unit, will also have to be removed because the unit has been destroyed.

Unless RP or EL specifically said that the counters that were placed on the table after the model had suffered its last wound could or would remain there even in the event of a sweeping advance, then there is nothing that says that either the models or the counters remain. They are all picked up and removed.

Don't get me wrong here. I am of the opinion that EL at least, should still work for the character even if its unit is caught in a sweeping advance. Particularly in light of the last GW FAQ.
However, having said that, the rules are clear that "unless otherwise specified..." nothing can save a unit from a sweeping advance. ATSKNF specifically mentions that if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance, it is not destroyed. Unfortunately, those words are missing from both the RP and EL Necron Special Rules. So until FAQ 2.1 says that either EL or RP counters are not removed due to sweeping advance, then at this point, they are.

I see it this way. Sweeping Advance says that the unit is destroyed and removed immediately. It also says that for the unit the battle is over. If a Crptek were to stand back up after the SA, the unit is in fact not destroyed, nor is the battle over for the unit.

Agreed Happyjew.

May not seem right, but it is.

WanderingFox wrote:Just to point it out, again, EL only functions on models that have already been removed from the game, and by that definition it implies that SA has already successfully completed its entire effect at that point. The unit was not saved, it was removed from play. In the case of the EL model, the model is gone, there just happens to be a counter placed on the table (assuming that SA allows the counter to be placed, which it does not).

I believe EL functions on models that have been removed from the table or play but not removed from the game. SA destroys the unit. In 5th BRB, destroyed has a strong context of "goodbye, don't come back without a doctor's note," the doctor's note might take the form of a faq entry, clarificaion or a nifty special rule. I would even settle for something that said "comes back from being destroyed" with no mention whatsoever of SA in the special rule/ruling. I haven't seen that yet, so I won't even try it and I will challenge anyone who tries it on me.

The issue there is that "for them the battle is over" is not relevant in game terms. It's fluff. Informational fluff, but fluff nonetheless.

@ time wizard:

EL requires "as a casualty" because it's placement is exactly like that of reanimation protocols (it just lacks the same removal conditions).

Let me get you the exact wordings:

Reanimation Protocols:
"If a model with reanimation protocols rule is removed as a casualty... Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it.

...

... return one of the slain models to play ...

... [u]Reanimation protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit [u]has been destroyed - once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters. Characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols..."

Ever Living:
"... is removed as a casualty, do not add a reanimation protocols counter, but instead place an ever-lving counter..."

The rules go on to specify how EL is different, namely in the lack of a counter-remove stage for fall-back etc.

Important things to note:
1. They both only function when it's removed as a casualty.
2. Only RP counters are lost on a fallback
3. Characters are NOT the same unit as the unit that they are in for purposes of RP/EL

Sweeping advance states the following:
"The unit is destroyed. ... The destroyed unit is removed immediately.
Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

SA 'destroys' which negates RP/EL. Rescue implies prevention, if EL were to still place a counter, it would not be 'preventing' SA from completing as the counter is placed after the model is removed. The unit (ie immortal squad w/ cryptek) would still die to SA. However, RP specifically states that the character is not part of the unit for purposes of RP. Specifically, this means it is not susceptible to RPs remove counter stage (see red text).

Finally, since SA has completely resolved at this stage, and the hypothetical EL counter has not been removed, you roll for it at the end of the phase and follow RP as normal.

Again, as I've stated, EL counters are not placed as SA does not remove 'as a casualty' However, current leaked 6th ed rules change this (by equating destroy, wiped out, and remove as a casualty to the same thing).

edit:
before anyone freaks about the red text, it is only in regards to RP/EL so it doesn't modify anything outside of that (KP/VP etc.)

WanderingFox wrote:......."Characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols..."

Note how the characters do not count as part of the unit only for the purposes of RP.... SA is not RP. The unit is destroyed, nothing in EL or RP specifically grants immunity, therefor EL cannot be applied. As I said earlier, IC's MAY be different, but upgrade characters are definitely wiped with the squad and may not return to the field.


6th edition is still a rumour, there is really no point in bringing it up at this time.

Since most probably my english will fail me one more time if things get too complicated, I will give an example on my point of view in this.
An Overlord and a Royal Court of 5 lords gets in cc. The overlord and 2 lords die of wounds. At that point they are removed from play as a casualty and each leaves an EL counter behind.
Then the rest of the lords get caught in sweeping advance. At this stage the only unit that is affected by SA is the Royal Court. The Overlord is not part of the RC anymore as he has been removed from play. The lords get destroyed and each leaves a EL counter behind.
At the end of the cc phase you have 6 EL rolls to make. The 5 EL rolls from the lords are forfeit because if they were to be successful they would reconstitute the Royal Court which was affected by SA. The EL roll for the overlord can be attempted because if it is successful then the overlord can return to play as a single model unit that was never affected by SA.

That isnt correct.

The Lord is a normal member of the unit (page 48 and 49, as already mentioned) and so, if the unit is swept SO IS THE IC- whether he is living or not

Also: SA does not finish resolving, it is a permanent ending for that unit. NOTHING can save the unit - and this is not limited in time. If you attempt to recover the unit at a later point (rescuing them from harm, another way to define rescue) you have still broken the rules for SA - because you are trying to use a special rule to recover the unit

No matter what you try to do the unit is dead. In this the rule works EZXACTLY the same as WBB (token == downed necron) and WBB was the "poster child" example of a psecial rule that doesnt work against SA. 4th edition gave it as the canon example, in 5th the SA rule is *word for word* the same - with the exception that WBB was removed as an *example*

Lordhat wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:......."Characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols..."

Note how the characters do not count as part of the unit only for the purposes of RP.... SA is not RP. The unit is destroyed, nothing in EL or RP specifically grants immunity, therefor EL cannot be applied. As I said earlier, IC's MAY be different, but upgrade characters are definitely wiped with the squad and may not return to the field.


6th edition is still a rumour, there is really no point in bringing it up at this time.

I say exactly this in my post if you had read the whole thing.

What I was countering was the 'rescue' wording not being enough to deny el, sa denies el solely because it does not remove as a casualty...

However, were a counter to be placed (ie say if the proposed 6th ed change to what destroy means) then there is nothing in SA stopping EL from happening since SA would still fully resolve and thus EL is not saving anything, but rather the effect happens, the model dies, and then there is a chance for it to come back at the end of the phase.