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WanderingFox wrote:However, were a counter to be placed (ie say if the proposed 6th ed change to what destroy means) then there is nothing in SA stopping EL from happening since SA would still fully resolve and thus EL is not saving anything, but rather the effect happens, the model dies, and then there is a chance for it to come back at the end of the phase.

And no one has brought up this argument yet.

Oh wait - I did. It's still saving the unit. And you can do it in 5th ed - kill off an EL model during the assault. SA doesn't remove the counter, and if you want to you can even roll to bring the model back - but you can't bring him back because that'd be saving the unit.

Please read the thread and try and put forth new points to discuss, or state why you feel a certain point wasn't discussed enough.

WanderingFox wrote:
What I was countering was the 'rescue' wording not being enough to deny el, sa denies el solely because it does not remove as a casualty...

However, were a counter to be placed (ie say if the proposed 6th ed change to what destroy means) then there is nothing in SA stopping EL from happening since SA would still fully resolve and thus EL is not saving anything, but rather the effect happens, the model dies, and then there is a chance for it to come back at the end of the phase.

First point wrong, SA denies it because it says it denies saving but we will get back to this.

Second point, how can EL not save a unit that has been destroyed by a SA? By definition if the unit comes back after being a victim of SA, it is being saved. What kind of novel definition of 'saved' are you using for this. Which brings me back to my first point.

This is not a one time transaction, SA triggers and nothing can stop it unless otherwise specified and this statement remains true until the end of the game...

Edit: Ninja by Rigeld, well played

...except that still doesnt work

You are not allowed to rescue / save the unit. If, after you resolve SA the unit still exists, then you haev BROKEN the rules

You are hung up on a timing issue that is entirely made up

the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Well look at it this way, if you have a character with EL and;

He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit fails morale in the shooting phase and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit fails their morale check and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit is caught in a sweeping advance, you still place a counter when he is 'killed' but due to the SA rule, he and his unit are destroyed and all the counters, RP and EL removed.

In 6 out of 7 scenarios, the model with the EL rule gets to roll to try to return to play.

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

time wizard wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Well look at it this way, if you have a character with EL and;

He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit fails morale in the shooting phase and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit fails their morale check and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit is caught in a sweeping advance, you still place a counter when he is 'killed' but due to the SA rule, he and his unit are destroyed and all the counters, RP and EL removed.

In 6 out of 7 scenarios, the model with the EL rule gets to roll to try to return to play.

yeah thats fine not bad odds there. like i said either way don't matter to me.. last time i had played and had a cryptek with a unit and it got wiped out via SA. i talked to my opponet and he agreed to let me place a EL for the crptek.. after he consolidated i rolled for EL he got up then it was my turn i took a pop shot with the lance.. but then when it was his turn he just got killed again via shooting and i didn't make the second EL roll.. so really getting that one model back up didn't change the tide of the game. we still had fun though.. but if some one says no that SA won't allow it then thats fine too. as long as it didn't end up in some big huge debate and make the game less enjoyable.


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rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

Realy rigeld2? and is this not what this form is all about ppls Bias? what ever dude, i guess you run this form and web site so every thing you say is the right way and every one else is wrong. wow i'm guessing you have alot of friends that enjoy battling you? dude its a debate and my opions matter just as much as yours. so i'll keep posting what i think and feel and you can shove it dude.


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@ Rigeld2,, really dude don't know what your prob is with me, but you need to consider not ever one is an expert at 40k like you. some people are on here to learn and also give their point of view so you need to stop attacking people when you think they are wrong. lighten up man. its only a game.

Necronmike wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

Realy rigeld2? and is this not what this form is all about ppls Bias? what ever dude, i guess you run this form and web site so every thing you say is the right way and every one else is wrong. wow i'm guessing you have alot of friends that enjoy battling you? dude its a debate and my opions matter just as much as yours. so i'll keep posting what i think and feel and you can shove it dude.

This forum should be about objective, non-heated rules debates. Sometimes the non-heated line gets crossed, but the objective line shouldn't.
And, actually - if you'd read the thread I've argued both sides of this rule. Not because I'm wishy washy, but because I wanted to make sure everything was looked at.
It's not an opinion that the FAQ you posted does nothing for the SA debate - it's a fact.
That FAQ doesn't mention SA anywhere. It clarifies that EL characters can stand up after all the RP tokens are removed - that's it.
It's not just the fact that being destroyed isn't the same as RFPaaC. It's that nothing can save an SAed unit without explicitly mentioning it.
Reading it any other way shows a bias that I've seen in some of your other posts as well.
I'm not trying to insult you - I'm simply pointing out that debates need to be objective and it doesn't seem like you are.

If you disagree, instead of posting how you would play it - try and debate using the rules. How you would play it rarely matters (except obviously to you and your group).


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Necronmike wrote:@ Rigeld2,, really dude don't know what your prob is with me, but you need to consider not ever one is an expert at 40k like you. some people are on here to learn and also give their point of view so you need to stop attacking people when you think they are wrong. lighten up man. its only a game.

If you took it as an attack then you read intent where there wasn't any.
I won't ever claim to be an expert, though I appreciate the compliment. I only pointed out what I see as a bias so that you (or anyone else) can get past that and objectively read the rules.
In this case, there's no differing interpretations, no different ways of reading a rule, no need to use context... this one is pretty black and white.

Rigeld2 .. incase you didn't notice i said i'd play how ever was fine it didn't mater to me, because i don't feel getting one model up is going to change the tide of the over all game so fine.. people don't want to let the EL get back up from a SA then thats great no problem. but for real.. you got to stop attacking people when you feel they are wrong. i joined this site to "learn" more and find people that enjoy the same hobby as i do and get others point of view but i will tell you this.. you are making it very hard to enjoy this site because you are right all the time and every one else don't know squat right.? well i'm sorry i'm not the expert like you man. maybe one day i will be.

Necronmike wrote:Rigeld2 .. incase you didn't notice i said i'd play how ever was fine it didn't mater to me, because i don't feel getting one model up is going to change the tide of the over all game so fine.. people don't want to let the EL get back up from a SA then thats great no problem. but for real.. you got to stop attacking people when you feel they are wrong. i joined this site to "learn" more and find people that enjoy the same hobby as i do and get others point of view but i will tell you this.. you are making it very hard to enjoy this site because you are right all the time and every one else don't know squat right.? well i'm sorry i'm not the expert like you man. maybe one day i will be.

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

1) I never intended an attack. If you read one, you misread the intent. That's the danger of a text-based interaction.
2) I do not have a problem admitting I'm wrong. You've obviously not read the placing a blast marker thread, or even a few times in this one. I also don't say that other people don't know squat.

All I did was say that it appears you have a bias. Your name, your other posts, and the 2nd one I quoted where you attempt to use the current Necron FAQ to say that EL can stand back up after SA - when it says nothing of the sort - lead me to believe that a bias towards Necrons may be clouding your judgement. That's all I pointed out. I never mentioned your grasp of the rules (good or bad), I never insulted you, I never attacked you.
All I did was address the rules at issue, and mention that it appears you're allowing your Necron bias to cloud how you are reading rules. I pointed that out in an attempt to get you to read rules objectively instead of subjectively.
If you read some other intent into that, I can't help it.

foolishmortal wrote:I am leaning strongly towards NO. EL does not specify that it brings a model back from destroyed. The whole unit is destroyed in a SA. The dead model with EL is still part of the unit (not on the table, but still part of the unit) Dying doesn't remove you from a unit, otherwise Ghost Ark's Repair Barge ability would never work.

Ghost Arks do not, technically, bring back dead models. They add entirely new necron models, with the restriction that they can't increase a unit's size to more than it started the game. I'm not necessarily sure which side of the argument I actually am on, but either way, I don't think Ghost Ark's ability is directly relevant.

rigeld2 wrote: I pointed that out in an attempt to get you to read rules objectively instead of subjectively.
If you read some other intent into that, I can't help it.

if this is what you where getting at then this is what you should of said instead of " leave your bias at home" , that comment to me was taken as you were dismissing anything i had to say about this thread. and your right Text base interaction is dangerous. i don't have a problem with looking up rules and learning how things can be taken in a different point of view. infact this site has helped me out alot with fine tuning my crons. Because I do want to play the "right" way and i don't want to "cheat" my friends while we battle. because i do more casual battling then tournaments. and its only natrual that people show favior to thier Armys. but i don't feel like i'm bias on this because i also point out that EL can come back from a SA because the EL rule says that if that model was joined to a unit, and if the EL roll was made it has to return to "That" unit and if the SA took that unit away then he can't be place back, but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Necronmike wrote:but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Yes - An EL model can come back if a unit is wiped out. They FAQed that because if you read the RP/EL interaction literally, they can't. This is because EL references RP with some differences, RP cannot come back from a wipeout, and EL doesn't override that.

This has nothing to do with SA. If all SA did was auto-kill everyone in the unit, then it would work. Unfortunately, however, SA destroys the unit (so RFPaaC tricks don't work) and specifies that nothing can save the unit unless it's explicitly stated.

Is there any rule or FAQ that explicitly says EL can come back from SA?

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Yes - An EL model can come back if a unit is wiped out. They FAQed that because if you read the RP/EL interaction literally, they can't. This is because EL references RP with some differences, RP cannot come back from a wipeout, and EL doesn't override that.

This has nothing to do with SA. If all SA did was auto-kill everyone in the unit, then it would work. Unfortunately, however, SA destroys the unit (so RFPaaC tricks don't work) and specifies that nothing can save the unit unless it's explicitly stated.

Is there any rule or FAQ that explicitly says EL can come back from SA?

yes i agree, the comment this morning was just saying that EL "in genral" is not saving a unit.. it was bring back a dead Charcter model.. a unit of warriors don't have EL it has RP, any ways. guess i should have also stated in my comment that i'm not really talking about SA at all just the EL and RP part. thats all i was saying.


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oh yeah i said i was done in this thread lol,, its like a train wreck you can't help but keep looking.

It is bringing back a member of the unit, therefore it IS saving the unit.

Necronmike wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Yes - An EL model can come back if a unit is wiped out. They FAQed that because if you read the RP/EL interaction literally, they can't. This is because EL references RP with some differences, RP cannot come back from a wipeout, and EL doesn't override that.

This has nothing to do with SA. If all SA did was auto-kill everyone in the unit, then it would work. Unfortunately, however, SA destroys the unit (so RFPaaC tricks don't work) and specifies that nothing can save the unit unless it's explicitly stated.

Is there any rule or FAQ that explicitly says EL can come back from SA?

yes i agree, the comment this morning was just saying that EL "in genral" is not saving a unit.. it was bring back a dead Charcter model.. a unit of warriors don't have EL it has RP, any ways. guess i should have also stated in my comment that i'm not really talking about SA at all just the EL and RP part. thats all i was saying.

The Character model is part of the unit.
The unit was destroyed.
Bringing back the character model means the unit is no longer destroyed.

Yes - a unit of warriors doesn't have EL. A Cryptek joined to the unit does. Reading the rules literally, there's no way for the Cryptek to stand back up if the unit (all the warriors and the cryptek) are killed to a man by lasguns.
The FAQ clarifies the intent that the Cryptek would stand back up.
This has nothing to do with SA as the FAQ nor the EL rules say anything about sweeping advance.

Rigeld .. we get it ok

You didnt appear to, as you seem to think that a mdoel attached to the unit is part of the unit, and that by saving that model you are in fact saving the unit

If unit A is Swept, unit A CANNOT EXIST ANY LONGER. It is gone, entirely

If you try to bring back a member of unit A, then unit A would now exist again - and you have just broken a rule telling you that this is not allowed

NOS ... I get it thanks for the help though.

I think this horse is dead and can't be beaten any more it don't have a RP or EL .. hmmm must have gotten SA then.

the difference here is effect resolution...

Firstly, "cannot exist any longer" is no where in the rules, by quote or by implication. The only thing that implies this is fluff, and therefore not important.

EL is not a save or special rule that prevents SA. Therefore, it has absolutely no interaction with SA at all (go read the wording of the rule you're tossing around again).

EL is not 'saving' anything. Saving implies prevention, EL does not prevent anything.

For lack of a better anology, it's like putting an apple on the table. SA tells you to take the apple off the table and nothing can stop that, so you do it. EL is saying "okay, now place another apple EXACTLY like that old apple on the table."

The unit was already slain. SA has no further input on this. It's done and resolved. EL then comes back and says "okay, now roll for these counters" There is NOTHING in SA that states that the model may never be returned to the table (except for fluff, which as far as I know isn't considered rules).

The only rules listed in the SA wording are: 1. unit is destroyed. 2. no save or special rule can stop it unless specifically mentioned.

EL does not stop SA, SA completes from start to end with no interaction from EL at all.

Also, EL does not place a counter from sweeping advance. Yes you get to place them if you are still wiped out, but wiped out =/= destroyed (at least not in 5th edition). EL specifically has wording in its rules that say you do NOT place a counter if a character is 'destroyed' Ergo, this whole debate is moot to begin with.

The only time when this argument will actually be of any worth is when/if the rules change and destroyed is made equivalent to wiped out/removed as a casualty.

And on that note, I'm tired of repeating myself. I've given my argument, you've ignored it completely, there's nothing else I could possibly say in addition to what I have been saying for the last 3 pages. As I find myself saying at the end of more and more of these threads, have fun going in circles...

Also, for all the toting of being unbiased, you sure refuse to see anyone else's point of view

So it gives points each time that way.

Still does not make sense since you are not putting "another [unit] EXACTLY like that old [unit] on the table."

You are re-placing the same unit back into the battle - rescuing it many would say, from the fate SA dealt it.

WanderingFox wrote:Also, EL does not place a counter from sweeping advance. Yes you get to place them if you are still wiped out, but wiped out =/= destroyed (at least not in 5th edition). EL specifically has wording in its rules that say you do NOT place a counter if a character is 'destroyed' Ergo, this whole debate is moot to begin with.

Not really - since you can place an EL counter before you get sweeped (in that assault you just lost) and then nothing removes the counter.

And on that note, I'm tired of repeating myself. I've given my argument, you've ignored it completely, there's nothing else I could possibly say in addition to what I have been saying for the last 3 pages. As I find myself saying at the end of more and more of these threads, have fun going in circles...

I haven't ignored it. If you read the thread I brought up the exact same arguement. You haven't brought up anything new.

Also, for all the toting of being unbiased, you sure refuse to see anyone else's point of view

That's an amusing statement. Perhaps you should read all the posts I've made in this thread?

EL is not a save or special rule that prevents SA. Therefore, it has absolutely no interaction with SA at all (go read the wording of the rule you're tossing around again).

BRB on Sweeping Advance wrote:The destroyed unit is removed immediately.
Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special
rule can rescue the unit at this stage

It's not about preventing SA. It's about rescuing the unit.
The unit was destroyed and no special rule can rescue it.
If the unit comes back to the table, has it been rescued?

By your argument, I get a KP every time that lone EL model hits the ground... because it's not *that* unit that comes back, it's another identical one.

kirsanth wrote:So it gives points each time that way.

Still does not make sense since you are not putting "another [unit] EXACTLY like that old [unit] on the table."

You are re-placing the same unit back into the battle - rescuing it many would say, from the fate SA dealt it.

hence the preface of "for lack of a better analogy"

The issue is that SA only deals with abilities that prevent SA. To me at least, this means things that say "sweeping advance does not work against this unit" or "instead of being swept..." There is no prevention in the EL rules, SA continues completely through all of it's motions, and makes no mention of the unit being gone for good (rules wise).

If, for example, SA had the phrasing "and cannot be returned to play unless a special rule explicitly states that it ignores sweeping advance" then I would not be arguing this hypothetical point.

Anyway, as I've said before, you don't get to place an EL counter from a sweep to begin with so this whole argument is moot

side note: thanks for taking the time to actually read and make an intelligent response instead of just telling me i'm wrong


@rigeld2:
First read the above, the analogy was not perfect. Sorry

Second, that is exactly my point. If an IC dies in an assault before the unit gets swept it DOES get to make its EL roll because a counter was placed (dieing in an assault is a 'remove as casualty'). What I was getting at is that the actual act of destruction sweep does is not 'remove as casualty' and therefore no marker is placed.

In the event that an EL model dies, and then the unit gets swept, there is nothing preventing you from getting up within 3inches of the marker.

This is of course, dependent on the definition of 'rescue the unit at this stage'

In my opinion (for that is all any of really have here right now), that means that any ability that could potentially stop sweeping advance as it happens (ie. at this stage) must explicitly state that it does so. Nowhere in the SA rules does it state that the unit cannot get up at a later time.

WanderingFox wrote: If, for example, SA had the phrasing "and cannot be returned to play unless a special rule explicitly states that it ignores sweeping advance" then I would not be arguing this hypothetical point.

It has that wording. It's been quoted many times. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."

WanderingFox wrote: In my opinion (for that is all any of really have here right now), that means that any ability that could potentially stop sweeping advance as it happens (ie. at this stage) must explicitly state that it does so. Nowhere in the SA rules does it state that the unit cannot get up at a later time.

Here you have me confused. First you agree that for a special rule to keep a unit from being destroyed by a SA, it must explicitly say so. Then you say that nowhere in the SA rule does it state that a unit cannot get up at a later time.

If the unit gets up at a later time, it has not then been destroyed. SA says when a unit gets swept "The falling bach unit is destroyed." It further says "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

The rule for SA does not have to state that a unit cannot get up at a later time. Quite the opposite. For that to happen, the unit must have a special rule that allows it to come up at a later time.

And neither RP nor EL have that rule.

WanderingFox wrote:In my opinion (for that is all any of really have here right now), that means that any ability that could potentially stop sweeping advance as it happens (ie. at this stage) must explicitly state that it does so. Nowhere in the SA rules does it state that the unit cannot get up at a later time.

I want the rule to work that way, I really do - and I don't play Necrons And I see that point of contention, I just don't feel it's valid (as I stated earlier in the thread).

The SA rule states that the unit is destroyed. The EL model is a member of the unit (even an IC at the point that SA resolves). If the unit is destroyed with no special rule being allowed to save it, you can't bring the unit back later on.

@time wizard:

You missread what I wrote. What I mean is that SA only provides context for abilities that explicitly stop SA from functioning (rescue at this stage). It does not stop something from doing it later.

Perhaps a hypothetical example.

I have a unit of models. These models have a rule that states "The turn after these models are removed from play. Return them to the battle in your movement phase using the deep strike rules."

By the way SA is worded, if that unit gets swept there is nothing stopping that unit from being destroyed. It is removed from play.

However, it's special rule (which does not satisfy the condition of 'rescue at this stage' since the models are dead) kicks in a full turn later and deep strikes the originally dead unit back onto the board.

In contrast, if this hypothetical unit's power was phrased "Instead of being destroyed, the unit may deep strike back onto the board in your next movement phase." Then sweeping advance would prevent it. Why? Because this version of the power happens 'at that stage' in other words, if it were to go off, it would prevent SA from resolving (ie. destroying the unit). Since it does not give explicit permission to deny SA, it doesn't and SA continues.

The point I've been trying to make is that EL does not function like the second one, but rather like the first. SA completes fully, and since SA has no rules that state that the unit may not come back, EL would still function (again assuming that a counter was placed, which we've established is currently impossible).

Destroyed = removed from play.
Destroyed =/= removed from play forever.

Destroyed is not equivalent to removed from play. You have absolutely no rules anywhere to back up that assertion.

I did not mean the status 'removed from play'

I meant the action of removing the model from play. Destroyed isn't actually defined ANYWHERE, which is why this argument is possible.

WanderingFox wrote:I did not mean the status 'removed from play'

I meant the action of removing the model from play. Destroyed isn't actually defined ANYWHERE, which is why this argument is possible.

Normally, the model would be destroyed, RFP, RFPaaC, etc...

SA destroys the unit. Therefore the unit cannot be in play anymore.

No where does it say that. It says to remove it from play, but does not denote that it can never return to play.