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There's no point in the history of the game where it wasn't packed to the gills with silliness and jokes. For example, Orks.

Eiríkr wrote:Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

The book 'slaves to darkness' disagrees with that statement.

labmouse42 wrote:

Eiríkr wrote:Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

The book 'slaves to darkness' disagrees with that statement.

The books Freebooters, Waaaagh! The Orks, and 'Ere We Go, 'Ere We Go, agree though.

Cryage wrote:The one thing i do miss a lot about the old necron codex vs the new necron codex... all of the old fluff/stories were written by guardsmen, captains, generals who saw what the necrons did. The necrons didn't write their own fluff, they were merely legends, almost ghosts in space that you were scared to ever meet.

I do appreciate they gave the necrons more fluff/character, but at the same time, keep them menacing

Yes thats what I loved about the old necrons, you didn't know much about them. Their weapons were unknown, how they travel is unknown, what goes on in the cron tombworlds when they awake is all speculation and eye witness accounts, well the ones that managed to escape. There was no hope of survival, no art stealing or talking with them, if they got you you're dead. Ghosts of a tragic past, you didn't need to go into detail to get the dead feeling from them. All you needed was the dead stare and the slow zombie like walk to know you were in trouble, no motive was needed. They didnt need to dress up to say look at me im the leader or look im a bodyguard troop. The necrons were beyond human things like officer markings and such, there units were dangerous, if they needed a flying unit it wasn't all flash and style it was rip half a necron apart and stick it to a flyer, jobs done. Souless machine killers didn't need a fashion sense.

Like in the original Alien film, what made the alien ship and the pilot so bizzar and scary was the design and the fact that nothing was explained, it was very alien.

And the space marines used to be the bad ass holy warriors who would mess anyone up because they looked like a heretic. Now they openly chat up female imperial guard well if your in the space marine game.
But recently they have started to loose the edge, the stay out of their way because its dangerous to get close to a space marine feel, whats next guardsmen openly questioning a marines judgement? A space marine romancing with an eldar farseer...

Now we feel the need to explain away everything and leave it less to the imagination.

Eiríkr wrote:Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

Past models that are goofy to the max?
Goff Rockers.
I rest my case.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:the Grey Knights are just damn bad. From legendary daemonhunters they became stereotypical knights and fanatics.

Could you elaborate on this a little? I don't see it.

Draigo. The Purifiers. Brotherhoods. And why in Heaven's Name would they need Librarians? They're all psykers!

If I want knights, I'll build a Dark Angels/Unforgiven army. If I have to build a GK army, I'm using Codex: Daemonhunters, and damn the new Codex.

DarknessEternal wrote:There's no point in the history of the game where it wasn't packed to the gills with silliness and jokes. For example, Orks.

Actually Orks are the peak of grimdark. They're the only ones who actually enjoy the in-universe situation of 40k.

Yes, the orks are silly. They're orks

They are also brutal green fungoid-enriched gorillas with attitude that want to fight and kill you for fun

THAT's grimdark

Ascalam wrote:Yes, the orks are silly. They're orks

They are also brutal green fungoid-enriched gorillas with attitude that want to fight and kill you for fun

THAT's grimdark

That's right, the deadliest comic relief in existence. Hope 'someone' doesn't mess up their Codex in the next Edition.

If they do i have about 20,000 pts of orks that will be going the way of my Necrons :(

I don't see them getting redone for a while yet though.

They'd better not...otherwise Mr. Ward's gonna have to deal with tons of complaint letters...I certainly hope he doesn't turn the Imperium into a twisted parody/joke of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy.

Tadashi wrote:
Actually Orks are the peak of grimdark. They're the only ones who actually enjoy the in-universe situation of 40k.

Man, when you put it that way, they're REALLY dark aren't they?

Rented Tritium wrote:

Man, when you put it that way, they're REALLY dark aren't they?

Absolutely.

In the Imperium, humanity battles desperately across a million worlds for their very survival as a species. No sacrifice can be balked at, no extremes can be shunned, no hesitation can be tolerated and no dissension can be allowed; to fail means not only death but an eternity of torture as the playthings of unspeakable entities from the darkest hells.

For the Orks? This is how they PLAY. Total war against an enemy that will never surrender, retreat, ask or give quarter? Great entertainment! Brutal pit-fights, commonly ending in the death of one or both parties, to resolve minor disputes? Grab the popcorn, this is better than watching football! Building up a civilization, advancing technology peacefully, becoming wise and philosophical? BORRRRRING! Rather go split someone's head open with an axe, that's fun!

The Orks are the comic relief, yes. . . but that says something about the universe, not them. In any other setting, they'd be the Always Chaotic Evil race.

Tadashi wrote:They'd better not...otherwise Mr. Ward's gonna have to deal with tons of complaint letters...I certainly hope he doesn't turn the Imperium into a twisted parody/joke of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy.

Hah but it would be funny to see a twisted parody/joke of a twisted parody/joke. And current IoM isnt too far removed from the Empire anyway. Plus the IoM has always seemed to be a medieval society... In SPAAAAAACE. Not saying I want this, i like my IoM how it is, but its not the worst choice out there.

I fail to see how Newcrons aren't intimidating/scary or whatever. Before there was simply no information on them, it was boring and lazy. They only gave the illusion of some deep, terrifying, Lovecrafian theme because the writers simply said so without really showing it. In reality the Necrons were just simple at best, they went around exterminating. We already have Tyranids for the-impossible-to-reason-with-and-destroys-all-life schtick.

Now they have impossible, deadly, technology that harnesses the powers of lightning, teleportation, dimensional rifts, and the like. They are still mostly souless, silent, unrelenting machines with a thing for flaying people alive now we can have that and some personality. Overall they still sound pretty gruesome to me. Also if you want spookiness read the Nightscythe entry it talks about abduction and the like.

They're less scary because now they're lacking the fear of the unknown. They've lost the H.P. Lovecraft effect; that which is mysterious and inexplicable is always more frightening than that which is clearly explained and has a comprehensible motivation.

Yeah I think the current necron would definitely be better if we knew less. I'm fine with the changes, they just should have gone into less detail and made it more mysterious.

Rented Tritium wrote:Yeah I think the current necron would definitely be better if we knew less. I'm fine with the changes, they just should have gone into less detail and made it more mysterious.

Quoted for truth. Mystery is good in terms of fluff, like the two lost Primarchs.

I suppose there's merit to those points. Personally as a Necron player I got bored of having zero attachment to my army other than looks. It's fun to think of motives, personality quirks, and so on for my Overlord and his legions.

Though I still don't think there was anything really unknown about the Necrons, or unknown in a way that would cause fear (perhaps to in-universe inhabitants). But nothing about them send shivers down my spine, they were simply the undead of 40k. I mean their motive was pretty clearly established and immutable, which I didn't like too much.

I do miss their unity though, they still seem to be about order, obedience, and law but I like my evil to be as united and organized as the good guys. Though to their credit of all the enemies of man they certianly are the most "lawful evil" so to speak.

asimo77 wrote:I fail to see how Newcrons aren't intimidating/scary or whatever. Before there was simply no information on them, it was boring and lazy. They only gave the illusion of some deep, terrifying, Lovecrafian theme because the writers simply said so without really showing it. In reality the Necrons were just simple at best, they went around exterminating. We already have Tyranids for the-impossible-to-reason-with-and-destroys-all-life schtick.

Now they have impossible, deadly, technology that harnesses the powers of lightning, teleportation, dimensional rifts, and the like. They are still mostly souless, silent, unrelenting machines with a thing for flaying people alive now we can have that and some personality. Overall they still sound pretty gruesome to me. Also if you want spookiness read the Nightscythe entry it talks about abduction and the like.

Necrons were fine the way they were: soulless constructs from ancient times, bent on draining the galaxy of life for their C'tan Masters. Back then, you couldn't reason with them, once they catch up with you it's over. Now, you can even make alliances with them. The feel of an ancient evil is ruined, they're too 'human' to be truly terrifying.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They'd better not...otherwise Mr. Ward's gonna have to deal with tons of complaint letters...I certainly hope he doesn't turn the Imperium into a twisted parody/joke of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy.

Hah but it would be funny to see a twisted parody/joke of a twisted parody/joke. And current IoM isnt too far removed from the Empire anyway. Plus the IoM has always seemed to be a medieval society... In SPAAAAAACE. Not saying I want this, i like my IoM how it is, but its not the worst choice out there.

Not exactly medieval, more late 19th Century and early 20th Century (pre-WWI) Europe. But you're right, the Imperium is a twisted parody of human nature. It's just that I'm worried Mr. Ward might just ruin it's grimdark feel and turn it 'noblebright'.

Im not sure what Empire fluff youve read but the ones ive read was no where near noble bright. More black and grey morality.

Maybe I was exaggerating, but still, I prefer the Imperium's current monolithic (well, somewhat) and monotheistic form to the Empire's feudal and polytheistic form.

Yeah, the Empire is pretty much the Holy Roman Empire. Well in a fantastic setting. Thats one thing i liked, each area had a period of earth they based it off of, at least the human factions.

Necrons were fine the way they were: soulless constructs from ancient times, bent on draining the galaxy of life for their C'tan Masters. Back then, you couldn't reason with them, once they catch up with you it's over. Now, you can even make alliances with them. The feel of an ancient evil is ruined, they're too 'human' to be truly terrifying.

I would say there were some deep flaws with the Oldcrons. Namely being uninteresting, there was no way to make a unique army or put your own flair on on a Necron army without it contradicting the fluff. Also the only personailites were with the C'tan who should not be the star of a Necron army. More importantly Tyranids already fill the "terror that cannot be reasoned with" role. Now, Necrons fill a unique role in the universe: an enemy that fights by a code and is internally stable (at least within a dynasty, though fighting amongst dynasties is pointed out to be quite rare and all Necrons have the desire to reunite their empire and rule the galaxy as per the Silent King's last orders). They are "lawful evil" army in D&D terms.

Also being human doesn't really make them "un-terrifying", maybe somewhat less scary but only marginally so. If being human makes something unscary then Chaos, Dark Eldar, the IoM, and practically every sentient race isn't grimdark.

Somone said the codex are more heroic while the BL tends to still be dark. An idea. Everyone says Kids are GW main source of profit. Kids want heroism. Now they buy codexes but maybe not the BL because they dont bother.
So what if the dichtmy is actually intended.

asimo77 wrote:

Necrons were fine the way they were: soulless constructs from ancient times, bent on draining the galaxy of life for their C'tan Masters. Back then, you couldn't reason with them, once they catch up with you it's over. Now, you can even make alliances with them. The feel of an ancient evil is ruined, they're too 'human' to be truly terrifying.

I would say there were some deep flaws with the Oldcrons. Namely being uninteresting, there was no way to make a unique army or put your own flair on on a Necron army without it contradicting the fluff. Also the only personailites were with the C'tan who should not be the star of a Necron army. More importantly Tyranids already fill the "terror that cannot be reasoned with" role. Now, Necrons fill a unique role in the universe: an enemy that fights by a code and is internally stable (at least within a dynasty, though fighting amongst dynasties is pointed out to be quite rare and all Necrons have the desire to reunite their empire and rule the galaxy as per the Silent King's last orders). They are "lawful evil" army in D&D terms.

Also being human doesn't really make them "un-terrifying", maybe somewhat less scary but only marginally so. If being human makes something unscary then Chaos, Dark Eldar, the IoM, and practically every sentient race isn't grimdark.

I agree with all of this. I personally think the Necrons are a bigger threat to the galaxy, now than they were bever. Overlords like Imotekh, are actually going out, and conquering parts of the galaxy. Before, there were just small skirmishes and nothing lasting. I really did enjoy the rewrite of the fluff, much more than Codex: C'tan and servants.

I've really enjoyed all of the Necron Overlords fluff, especially Trazyn.

It's not like Necrons don't still have the weapons (More now even) and troops that were so terrfying for members of the Imperium to fight. I mean, Gauss weapons literately flay you apart! Necron warriors are still shown to be just as relentless and implacable as before, which is shown quite well in the Sands of Fordris story in the dex.

The Codex is also full of plenty of Grimdarkness. For example, Ghost Arks being used to drag unwilling civilians to have their souls fed to hungry Stargods, and entombed in an un-thinking automaton for the rest of eternity, is pretty grimdark if you ask me.

I prefer the "We are the Necrontyr. Surrender and die." thing they had before. They didn't have personality. They didn't need it. It was attitude and style that made the army. The C'tan were the personality. It should have been your enemy fearing the unending slog of Necrons towards his lines without thought, without malice. The art did so much for that army.

Surtur wrote:I prefer the "We are the Necrontyr. Surrender and die." thing they had before. They didn't have personality. They didn't need it. It was attitude and style that made the army. The C'tan were the personality. It should have been your enemy fearing the unending slog of Necrons towards his lines without thought, without malice. The art did so much for that army.

Bolding by me. I already play Tyranids, why do I want another army with almost the exact same personality? For the most part you just described how most of the Necron Army still functions. It's only the Nobility, and their Bodyguards who got the personality lift. Warriors are just as implacable and "We are Legion" as always, like in the Sand of Fordris story that I cited.

The Personality of the Royals really does add a lot more depth to the army, than the two star gods could ever give it.

A lot of people also seem to be hung up on Trazyn and his "art" collection... think those people should re-read his entry.

His "art" is artifacts and soldiers. The way I read it / interpreted it, he captured the Catachan and put them into stasis to add to his "collection" and when he sent over the Tesseract labyrinth's, i assumed he wanted to trap Valeria for being a pain in his ass.

I read that hyperscroll message with sincere sarcasm and crass from trazyn not "oh dear, thank you so much!"

The guy is a dick and wants to capture weapons of war for his own intrigue, it has nothing to do with fancy artwork. I love Trazyn, i think he is a true villain.

Huron Blackheart disagrees with this statement.

rockerbikie wrote:Huron Blackheart disagrees with this statement.

You seem to have misspelled Lucius the Eternal, friend.