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IronSnake wrote:Orks are just rodents. They can't really control anything, including themselves.

Chaos on the other hand would envelope all of the Galaxy and most likely wipe out every other race. Do Orks thrive in the eye of terror? I think not. And that's what you'd have if Chaos were to kill the Emperor. A galactic-wide eye of terror.

Yes, they do, actually. Read the story of Tuska da Daemon-Killa's Waaagh. Orks LOVE it in the Eye of Terror.

"Told yer I knew where da best fightin' wuz." -Tuska da Daemon-Killa to his ladz.

The orks also got the gak kicked out of them in that Waagh.

So, you can't exactly say they *thrive* in there...

BlaxicanX wrote:The orks also got the gak kicked out of them in that Waagh.

So, you can't exactly say they *thrive* in there...

Depends on how you define 'got the gak kicked out of them'. They smashed a minimum of seven daemon worlds; on the eighth, they FINALLY met a Daemon Prince powerful enough to beat them. . .

. . . and since he's a Khornate, he reincarnates them every day, and they get to fight him and his daemons forever. That's Ork heaven. So first they massacred their way across seven worlds (at least; several of the daemon-worlds they crushed were mentioned in the plural, so it was actually more than that) and then when they were finally beaten, they were allowed to fight the toughest fighters in the galaxy, forever. Which was, of course, what they were after all along.

Furthermore, from a 'power' perspective, that fight is simply a loss for the Daemons, because Orks don't feed the Chaos Gods. Manifesting daemons must take energy; some of that energy is lost when an Ork kills it, and there's no compensating 'feeding' from the Orks emotions, like there is from humans or Eldar. That being so, Tuska and his boyz are STILL in the Eye of Terror, weakening Khorne a little more every day. . . which is to say, one Ork Waaagh (of which there are, at any given time, probably dozens at least) has done and continues to do more damage to the Ruinous Powers than the whole of humanity has accomplished in their whole history, and they're having the time of their lives doing it.

Sounds like 'thriving' to me.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:The orks also got the gak kicked out of them in that Waagh.

So, you can't exactly say they *thrive* in there...

Depends on how you define 'got the gak kicked out of them'. They smashed a minimum of seven daemon worlds; on the eighth, they FINALLY met a Daemon Prince powerful enough to beat them. . .

. . . and since he's a Khornate, he reincarnates them every day, and they get to fight him and his daemons forever. That's Ork heaven. So first they massacred their way across seven worlds (at least; several of the daemon-worlds they crushed were mentioned in the plural, so it was actually more than that) and then when they were finally beaten, they get to fight the toughest fighters in the galaxy, forever.

Furthermore, from a 'power' perspective, that fight is simply a loss for the Daemons, because Orks don't feed the Chaos Gods. Manifesting daemons must take energy; some of that energy is lost when an Ork kills it, and there's no compensating 'feeding' from the Orks emotions, like there is from humans or Eldar. That being so, Tuska and his boyz are STILL in the Eye of Terror, weakening Khorne a little more every day. . . which is to say, one Ork Waaagh has done and continues to do more damage to the Ruinous Powers than the whole of humanity has accomplished in their whole history, and they're having the time of their lives doing it.

Sounds like 'thriving' to me.

I'm pretty sure constant bloodshed powers the Blood God. Doesn't matter who's it is, as long as it's happening

You have to wonder though, if the orks did start to gain power who would they go about conquering and looting from without mankind? So I would cast my vote down either nids or possibly tau, although they seem to be pushed back more often than not by the eldar no? Am I remembering that wrong?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

I'm pretty sure constant bloodshed powers the Blood God. Doesn't matter who's it is, as long as it's happening

The Chaos Gods are maintained and powered by mortal emotions, specifically the emotions of those creatures who resonate in the Warp; in the case of the four Ruinous Powers, they are fed by the humans and the Eldar. It isn't bloodshed itself that feeds Khorne; it's bloodlust, martial pride, the glory of victory, and the despair of death.

Orks, however, don't feed them. Ork emotions go to feed Gork and Mork, instead. Orks killing Daemons does exactly nothing to help Khorne; in fact, since those Daemons are composed of his power, and some fraction of that power will inevitably be lost in the incorporation/discorporation process when the Orks 'kill' them, the battle will be a net loss.

So no; Tuska's Waaagh isn't feeding the Chaos Gods, it's weakening them. Only a tiny, tiny bit, since it's a very small thing compared to the whole Imperium feeding them, but the effect still exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Katavus wrote:You have to wonder though, if the orks did start to gain power who would they go about conquering and looting from without mankind? So I would cast my vote down either nids or possibly tau, although they seem to be pushed back more often than not by the eldar no? Am I remembering that wrong?

Each other. Orks don't mind fighting each other; in fact, in some ways they prefer it. At least against other greenskins they know they're gonna get a proppa fight!

I would bet my money on the the different alien empires floating around. Without the IoM they will have tons of room to expand.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

IronSnake wrote:Orks are just rodents. They can't really control anything, including themselves.

Chaos on the other hand would envelope all of the Galaxy and most likely wipe out every other race. Do Orks thrive in the eye of terror? I think not. And that's what you'd have if Chaos were to kill the Emperor. A galactic-wide eye of terror.

Yes, they do, actually. Read the story of Tuska da Daemon-Killa's Waaagh. Orks LOVE it in the Eye of Terror.

"Told yer I knew where da best fightin' wuz." -Tuska da Daemon-Killa to his ladz.

That isn't thriving. They are at the mercy of the Chaos God's will. If Chaos wants to stop bringing them back to life to fight the battle again, they can. That means Tuska's orks lost. Even if getting to relive the battle in which they all die means it makes them happy.

I still firmly believe Chaos would be the leading power. Necrons would be next in line. They would have no problem ridding Orks from the galaxy. They're very methodical and their technology is supreme.

IronSnake wrote:That isn't thriving.

... to an Ork, eternal war is HEAVEN.

They lost. The Chaos powers that be could turn the game off if they wanted to. Therefore Chaos must be deriving pleasure from having them respawn so to speak to keep fighting over and over as well.

Just an idea here, but who's to say that the deaths of the current four gods wouldn't just pave the way for the emergence of another pantheon? And if humanity were to suddenly wipe themselves out, Slaanesh at least would linger for quite a while due to the Dark Eldar.

IronSnake wrote:They lost. The Chaos powers that be could turn the game off if they wanted to. Therefore Chaos must be deriving pleasure from having them respawn so to speak to keep fighting over and over as well.

Sure. Doesn't change the fact that it's slowly weakening them, as I mentioned in my last post in this thread.

Not to mention that Tuska, as I also mentioned above, wiped out a MINIMUM of seven daemon worlds before he finally met his match. How many daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror has the Imperium managed to clean off? Zero, I believe.

And finally, this isn't even a particularly large Waaagh. Tuska had one Space Hulk; Ghazghkull, if you'll recall, had twelve when he attacked Armageddeon. Tuska didn't have an empire behind him or anything; Waaaghs bigger than this are roaming around the galaxy all the time. This was just ONE Ork Warboss and his personal followers, sailing blithely into the Eye of Terror (after launching a full-scale planetary assault on the hostile-environment training planet of the Cadian Shock Troops as a warm-up exercise) and kicking holy living hell out of every daemon they could find until they finally met one who could beat them.

So yeah, they lost. . . after first doing more damage to the Chaos Gods than anyone else has, before or since. One Ork Warboss.

Chaos can't really deal with Orks. It can't corrupt them, it can't feed off them; fighting Orks is a net loss for Chaos. If the Imperium tried to invade the Eye of Terror, they'd get bogged down immediately; their very presence would make daemons flock towards them from all directions, their soldiers would go mad and attack each other or mutate into Spawn and run rampant, and the whole time they'd only be making the Chaos Gods STRONGER by fighting them, because of all the bloodshed, death, and intense emotional and physical damage/changes that would be going on. Orks have NONE of those problems. It's a lot easier for Orks to fight Daemons than it is for humans, because to them Chaos is an external enemy to be killed as opposed to something inextricably linked to and sustained by their own psyche.

Chaos beats man. Ors beat down Chaos. Tyranids arrive and beat Orks. Chaos Gods and Tyranids duke it out.

blood lance wrote:Chaos beats man. Ors beat down Chaos. Tyranids arrive and beat Orks. Chaos Gods and Tyranids duke it out.

Necrons nuke both of them, and Trazyn adds more stuff to his museum.

It has to be either orks or tyranids. If the tyranids still continue on with their rampage through the galaxy when the Emperor's light fades, then the nids will eventually kill off the orks and the other races, effectively making the entire milky way galaxy devoid of all life, before moving on to the next galaxy.

If they are no longer drawn to the milky way, then the orks will do the same as the nids, but just colonize all worlds instead of destroying them. After all other races are killed off, then the orks will duke it out between themselves for the rest of time.

It will be Orks and Nids. In the fluff there is a planet where Eldrad pushed a hive fleet to a Ork held world and the constant warfare has made the Orks not only happy, but stronger. On this world Boys are the size of nobs and Nobs are the size of warbosses.

Remember the creed of the Orks: Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

BeRzErKeR wrote:

IronSnake wrote:They lost. The Chaos powers that be could turn the game off if they wanted to. Therefore Chaos must be deriving pleasure from having them respawn so to speak to keep fighting over and over as well.

Sure. Doesn't change the fact that it's slowly weakening them, as I mentioned in my last post in this thread.

Not to mention that Tuska, as I also mentioned above, wiped out a MINIMUM of seven daemon worlds before he finally met his match. How many daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror has the Imperium managed to clean off? Zero, I believe.

And finally, this isn't even a particularly large Waaagh. Tuska had one Space Hulk; Ghazghkull, if you'll recall, had twelve when he attacked Armageddeon. Tuska didn't have an empire behind him or anything; Waaaghs bigger than this are roaming around the galaxy all the time. This was just ONE Ork Warboss and his personal followers, sailing blithely into the Eye of Terror (after launching a full-scale planetary assault on the hostile-environment training planet of the Cadian Shock Troops as a warm-up exercise) and kicking holy living hell out of every daemon they could find until they finally met one who could beat them.

So yeah, they lost. . . after first doing more damage to the Chaos Gods than anyone else has, before or since. One Ork Warboss.

Chaos can't really deal with Orks. It can't corrupt them, it can't feed off them; fighting Orks is a net loss for Chaos. If the Imperium tried to invade the Eye of Terror, they'd get bogged down immediately; their very presence would make daemons flock towards them from all directions, their soldiers would go mad and attack each other or mutate into Spawn and run rampant, and the whole time they'd only be making the Chaos Gods STRONGER by fighting them, because of all the bloodshed, death, and intense emotional and physical damage/changes that would be going on. Orks have NONE of those problems. It's a lot easier for Orks to fight Daemons than it is for humans, because to them Chaos is an external enemy to be killed as opposed to something inextricably linked to and sustained by their own psyche.

lol Ok. I guess the Emperor killing Horus and driving all of Chaos into the Eye of Terror was just a minor win as compared to Tuska's little adventure huh? Some of you guys are sippin' mighty strong on the Ork koolaid.

King Pariah wrote:It's not so much that chaos would turn on itself rather, once all the psyker species whose emotions feed the chaos gods are dead, chaos would start starving to death which in turn would possibly cause them to turn on one another trying to maintain their existence for as long as possible by consuming each other. But in the end with nothing to feed off of, chaos would die.

There are entire, populated planets in the eye of terror. I see no reason why a chaos ruled galaxy would wipe out all sentient life.
A galaxy full of twisted daemonworlds, just like the current eye of terror, appears to be much more likely.

UsdiThunder wrote:It will be Orks and Nids. In the fluff there is a planet where Eldrad pushed a hive fleet to a Ork held world and the constant warfare has made the Orks not only happy, but stronger. On this world Boys are the size of nobs and Nobs are the size of warbosses.

Remember the creed of the Orks: Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

I'm pretty sure Waaagh! 'Eadcrumpa suffered an undeniable defeat when they popped the containment core of a doomsday ark that was a gift persay... Aside from that though, yeah, orks aren't likely to be the ones who get the boot in the end. Actually I think it'd be funny to see a galaxy where it's just Necrons vs Orks vs Tyranids. The ever regenerating metal legions vs the spontaneous spore spawned green boys who live for battle vs the the nigh infinite devouring swarm. I'm pretty sure that could go on forever.

humanity would not die - Imperium would die but I am sure some colonies of humans would exist and some rogue traders who travelled beyond the imperial borders.

IronSnake wrote:

lol Ok. I guess the Emperor killing Horus and driving all of Chaos into the Eye of Terror was just a minor win as compared to Tuska's little adventure huh? Some of you guys are sippin' mighty strong on the Ork koolaid.

First off; The Emperor didn't "drive all of Chaos into the Eye of Terror". He killed Horus, and drove the Traitor Legions into the Eye of Terror. The Traitor Legions are not "all of Chaos"; and he did absolutely nothing to confine Chaos itself. It's all through the Warp, just like always was.

And secondly, the Horus Heresy wasn't a win for humanity in any way. Daemons aren't mortal, remember? They're just energy, expended by the Chaos Gods in order to create a physical shape. When a Daemon is created or destroyed, some fraction of the energy that went into it is lost to entropy. But if that Daemon, in the time it existed, brought IN more energy than was lost in the creation/destruction cycle, that Daemon has, on net, helped the Chaos God who created it. Killing Horus did NOTHING to the Chaos Gods, except (if you believe Legion) stop them from destroying themselves through greed.

The Chaos Gods gain energy from mortal emotion. They're mostly defined (and so, presumably, mostly fed) by negative emotion. Guess what the Horus Heresy created a WHOLE lot of? The Chaos Gods didn't create Horus; they did loan him power, and much of that was presumably lost when the Emperor destroyed him, but the initial investment of creating him didn't cost them a dime, and corrupting him was dirt cheap. Similarly, they invested power in the Traitor Legions, and some fraction of that was lost as members of those Legions died during the Heresy and the Scouring afterwards; but once again, they were using the Emperor's tools against him, working on the cheap. So that's the negative side of the ledger, and it's big, but not enormous.

Now look at the POSITIVE side of the ledger. The Emperor, humanity's most powerful, informed, and capable defender, got the piss beaten out of him and is now barely hanging on to existence while acting as a glorified interstellar lighthouse. The number of people who died in pain and terror during the Heresy is literally uncountable; that's profit for the Chaos Gods. The number of people who have lived and died without ever being free of suffering, misery, and despair under the oppressive reign of the Imperium since then is massively larger, and also massively larger than it would have been without the Heresy; that's profit, too. The survivors of the Traitor Legions have inflicted incredible suffering in the ten thousand years since, and that's MORE profit, as is the emotional turmoil of the Chaos Space Marines themselves! The positive side of the ledger is incredibly large, and climbing every single day.

And, of course, as a direct result of the actions of the Chaos Gods the whole galaxy has become much, much more Chaotic, because much of the Imperium is a garrison state; hell, how much psychic food do you think Khorne gets from Cadia alone? Martial pride, merciless determination, bitter hatred of the enemy. . . it's an all-you-can-eat emotional buffet for the Blood God. The Inquisition alone kills so many people and inspires so much terror that Nurgle (who gains power from humanity's fear of death, among other things) might as well have invented it himself.

This is exactly why Chaos is such a dire threat; humans CANNOT defeat it. Ever. Fighting Chaos only makes it stronger, because the very act of fighting it feeds the Chaos Gods. The only way you can actually beat Chaos is to starve it. . .

. . . which brings us right back to the Orks. Whose emotions don't feed Chaos, and so CAN actually starve it, which humanity cannot do.

So its in the Imperium's best interests to use orks to fight the forces of chaos?

I see a good idea for a story or campaign of some sort there.

Vice_Grip wrote:So its in the Imperium's best interests to use orks to fight the forces of chaos?

I see a good idea for a story or campaign of some sort there.

Imperium is also very corrupt and highly fanatical they hate all aliens....they would rather die by the hands of chaos then win using orks as soldiers...

BeRzErKeR wrote:

IronSnake wrote:

lol Ok. I guess the Emperor killing Horus and driving all of Chaos into the Eye of Terror was just a minor win as compared to Tuska's little adventure huh? Some of you guys are sippin' mighty strong on the Ork koolaid.

First off; The Emperor didn't "drive all of Chaos into the Eye of Terror". He killed Horus, and drove the Traitor Legions into the Eye of Terror. The Traitor Legions are not "all of Chaos"; and he did absolutely nothing to confine Chaos itself. It's all through the Warp, just like always was.

And secondly, the Horus Heresy wasn't a win for humanity in any way. Daemons aren't mortal, remember? They're just energy, expended by the Chaos Gods in order to create a physical shape. When a Daemon is created or destroyed, some fraction of the energy that went into it is lost to entropy. But if that Daemon, in the time it existed, brought IN more energy than was lost in the creation/destruction cycle, that Daemon has, on net, helped the Chaos God who created it. Killing Horus did NOTHING to the Chaos Gods, except (if you believe Legion) stop them from destroying themselves through greed.

The Chaos Gods gain energy from mortal emotion. They're mostly defined (and so, presumably, mostly fed) by negative emotion. Guess what the Horus Heresy created a WHOLE lot of? The Chaos Gods didn't create Horus; they did loan him power, and much of that was presumably lost when the Emperor destroyed him, but the initial investment of creating him didn't cost them a dime, and corrupting him was dirt cheap. Similarly, they invested power in the Traitor Legions, and some fraction of that was lost as members of those Legions died during the Heresy and the Scouring afterwards; but once again, they were using the Emperor's tools against him, working on the cheap. So that's the negative side of the ledger, and it's big, but not enormous.

Now look at the POSITIVE side of the ledger. The Emperor, humanity's most powerful, informed, and capable defender, got the piss beaten out of him and is now barely hanging on to existence while acting as a glorified interstellar lighthouse. The number of people who died in pain and terror during the Heresy is literally uncountable; that's profit for the Chaos Gods. The number of people who have lived and died without ever being free of suffering, misery, and despair under the oppressive reign of the Imperium since then is massively larger, and also massively larger than it would have been without the Heresy; that's profit, too. The survivors of the Traitor Legions have inflicted incredible suffering in the ten thousand years since, and that's MORE profit, as is the emotional turmoil of the Chaos Space Marines themselves! The positive side of the ledger is incredibly large, and climbing every single day.

And, of course, as a direct result of the actions of the Chaos Gods the whole galaxy has become much, much more Chaotic, because much of the Imperium is a garrison state; hell, how much psychic food do you think Khorne gets from Cadia alone? Martial pride, merciless determination, bitter hatred of the enemy. . . it's an all-you-can-eat emotional buffet for the Blood God. The Inquisition alone kills so many people and inspires so much terror that Nurgle (who gains power from humanity's fear of death, among other things) might as well have invented it himself.

This is exactly why Chaos is such a dire threat; humans CANNOT defeat it. Ever. Fighting Chaos only makes it stronger, because the very act of fighting it feeds the Chaos Gods. The only way you can actually beat Chaos is to starve it. . .

. . . which brings us right back to the Orks. Whose emotions don't feed Chaos, and so CAN actually starve it, which humanity cannot do.

Man... too long. I didn't need a history lesson. I know the fluff. This is about the orks supposedly 'thriving' in the EoT. Which they cannot do. If they were, they wouldn't be stuck in an endless meaningless cycle of reliving the battle in which they...... died.

Vice_Grip wrote:
So its in the Imperium's best interests to use orks to fight the forces of chaos?

I see a good idea for a story or campaign of some sort there.]


Imperium is also very corrupt and highly fanatical they hate all aliens....they would rather die by the hands of chaos then win using orks as soldiers...

Not saying they will.

King Pariah wrote:he ever regenerating metal legions vs the spontaneous spore spawned green boys who live for battle vs the the nigh infinite devouring swarm. I'm pretty sure that could go on forever.

It likely would.

you guys seem to be forgetting what the necrons have had planned since the old ones left and forgot to close the door behind them, when the necrons reseal the warp all the other races are stuffed anyway, all races except tyranids rely on the warp for getting around, be it tau, for skimming, mankind, for everything or orks, for jumping in on a space hulk and rolliing a d-infinity to see what point in time and space they eventually get spat out, (just look at the story of the warboss who started a waagh, went in a space hulk and came out a week before he went in, killed his past self and got a second copy of his favourite gun... orks dont care about paradox's ). tyranids however, have that nifty way of "lootin" a planets gravity and using it to pull the hive fleet where it wants to go, causing earthquakes etc, on the next planet to be devoured, but seeing as humanitys night light would be gone that would be irrelevant as the 'nids would likely have no idea that the milky way even existed or that there is even life there, there may be soemthing, however that the necrons have in plan for the tyranids. line 15 of the awakening: "That Which Lies Outside will be drawn to the harvest" i assume that "that which lies outside owuld be reffering to the hive mind wich lies outside of our galaxy, so maybe the necrons will draw em in and roflstomp them? therefore, i gotta go with the necrons winning, the second most intelligent race in the galaxy know they are the biggest threat, the number 1 most intelligent are the threat. as for the neverending fight against the orks, with the orks stranded on whatever planet they happened to be on, the necrons can just bombard them from orbit, or just wait for them to rot or kill themselves. being immortal has its benefits.

That assumes the necrontyr succeed, and in canon they certainly haven't yet.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

I'm pretty sure that if Horus had indeed succeeded in killing the Emperor then Chaos and the Imperium would flip flop places so that it was the Imperium who are the Heretics. Besides the Orks are the most dominant race in the galaxy