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IronSnake wrote:

Man... too long. I didn't need a history lesson. I know the fluff. This is about the orks supposedly 'thriving' in the EoT. Which they cannot do. If they were, they wouldn't be stuck in an endless meaningless cycle of reliving the battle in which they...... died.

If you want to make a point, hear them out and make counterpoints. If you ignore points made against your theory it does not make your point right. And believe it or not that wall of text you didn't read pertained to the topic of Orks in the EoT and pretty much nullified your Emperor idea.

Go back, read it again, and come up with a counter.

The Orks certainly aren't thriving in the Eye. But they're happy.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

IronSnake wrote:

Man... too long. I didn't need a history lesson. I know the fluff. This is about the orks supposedly 'thriving' in the EoT. Which they cannot do. If they were, they wouldn't be stuck in an endless meaningless cycle of reliving the battle in which they...... died.

If you want to make a point, hear them out and make counterpoints. If you ignore points made against your theory it does not make your point right. And believe it or not that wall of text you didn't read pertained to the topic of Orks in the EoT and pretty much nullified your Emperor idea.

Go back, read it again, and come up with a counter.

Agreed, if all youre going do is sit back and say "Nope, i aint gonna do it and youre not makin me read cause readin is hard" then stop trying to have a debate. You may also want to read the quote from the eldar philosopher about orks having no struggle based off of how their society is ran. Chaos WILL turn on itself and it will do it quickly because they hate each other. They only came together during the heresy because the Emperor was a huge threat and they hated him. With him gone they would instantly turn on each other like normal.

EDIT: I do agree with you here Durza, they arent thriving but are very happy with the situation.

We forget that the Necrons are finite, there's only a set amount of them left, it may be alot but they only have x amount. Orks and nids however keep spawing. I think we all agree that the Crons may beat them but they will never destroy them. It just becomes a battle of attrition. eventualy it will just be Orks and Nids in a never ending battle. Orks love to fight, Nids love to eat

optimusprime14 wrote:We forget that the Necrons are finite, there's only a set amount of them left, it may be alot but they only have x amount. Orks and nids however keep spawing. I think we all agree that the Crons may beat them but they will never destroy them. It just becomes a battle of attrition. eventualy it will just be Orks and Nids in a never ending battle. Orks love to fight, Nids love to eat

Another reason why the new dex is dodgey. In the old dex, the necrons either wanted to kill all organics, or make them into machines. Now, it's implied most overlords find such practices deplorable. Unless of course they are one of the "renegade" overlords (like that AI, and maybe the pirate)

Chaos needs humanity to thrive. Human desires power the Chaos Gods and this power is put to use to fight against the other Chaos Gods.

I read somewhere that the Gods really only care about "the Big Game" where they all duke it out for eternity just because that is what you do to pass the time when you are powerful enough.

It also stated that the HH only happened because the Emperor was gaining to much influence in the immaterium, or something like that ( that when the Imperium got stronger, Big E also got stronger just like the Chaos Gods do when worship is practiced in their name.)

That HH was a time when the Gods made a short break in the Big Game to turn their united focus on to kicking humanitys' backside.

But this failed because Horus was a human and thus prone to idiocy and let the Emperor get onto his ship and shoot him with mind bullets.

NOW, my point is, Chaos would not dominate the galaxy because without the united Imperium, Chaos has no reason to go into the real world except to coerce humans into better worshipping practices.

As for who would actually dominate the galaxy then I think that since the Ultramarines weren't there for the final battle, they would simply go to Cadia and offer Ursarkar E. Creed a job as Senior Advisor to the Patriarch.
This would of course become the single most powerful army possible and wipe out everything in the galaxy.
Case. Closed.

Horus wasn't being stupid when he let the big E onto his ship. He had to end it quickly because of incoming loyalist forces. Letting the big E on board was probably a pretty smart though risky decision but by no means stupid.

King Pariah wrote:Horus wasn't being stupid when he let the big E onto his ship. He had to end it quickly because of incoming loyalist forces. Letting the big E on board was probably a pretty smart though risky decision but by no means stupid.

If that was the only thing you want to complain about in my post... I am going to consider that positive

It would not be a big Chaos empire. The whole point of Chaos is, well, chaos. There would be too much animosity among the Chaos factions and Legions- those supporting individual gods, those in favor of Chaos Undivided. Orks would continue to be a mess as they ususally are. Tau could potentially gain a small foothold, though with no FTL it would be much smaller than the IoM. Eldar might prosper a bit, but are iffy. Dark Eldar would continue what they always do.

It would not be a big Chaos empire. The whole point of Chaos is, well, chaos.

I don't think they would be able to organise into an empire, they would try though, but to many would try, there would be fighting among the primarchs. So mabye just a few smaller empires that slowly beat eachother to death.

Vice_Grip wrote:

It would not be a big Chaos empire. The whole point of Chaos is, well, chaos.

I don't think they would be able to organise into an empire, they would try though, but to many would try, there would be fighting among the primarchs. So mabye just a few smaller empires that slowly beat eachother to death.

A good point. I could see a Chaos Undivided alliance, a nurgle alliance, a khorne alliance, etc.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

IronSnake wrote:

Man... too long. I didn't need a history lesson. I know the fluff. This is about the orks supposedly 'thriving' in the EoT. Which they cannot do. If they were, they wouldn't be stuck in an endless meaningless cycle of reliving the battle in which they...... died.

If you want to make a point, hear them out and make counterpoints. If you ignore points made against your theory it does not make your point right. And believe it or not that wall of text you didn't read pertained to the topic of Orks in the EoT and pretty much nullified your Emperor idea.

Go back, read it again, and come up with a counter.

Relax, chief. I read it. The bulk of what was posted did not counter my point to begin with. Orks DO NOT THRIVE IN THE EYE OF TERROR. One odd event aka; Tuska getting trapped in an endless death cycle does not prove anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

IronSnake wrote:

Man... too long. I didn't need a history lesson. I know the fluff. This is about the orks supposedly 'thriving' in the EoT. Which they cannot do. If they were, they wouldn't be stuck in an endless meaningless cycle of reliving the battle in which they...... died.

If you want to make a point, hear them out and make counterpoints. If you ignore points made against your theory it does not make your point right. And believe it or not that wall of text you didn't read pertained to the topic of Orks in the EoT and pretty much nullified your Emperor idea.

Go back, read it again, and come up with a counter.

Agreed, if all youre going do is sit back and say "Nope, i aint gonna do it and youre not makin me read cause readin is hard" then stop trying to have a debate. You may also want to read the quote from the eldar philosopher about orks having no struggle based off of how their society is ran. Chaos WILL turn on itself and it will do it quickly because they hate each other. They only came together during the heresy because the Emperor was a huge threat and they hated him. With him gone they would instantly turn on each other like normal.

EDIT: I do agree with you here Durza, they arent thriving but are very happy with the situation.

I never said I didn't read it. I said it was too long, which it was. I know the history of WH40K. So to be talked down to like that was 1. insulting and 2. a waste of his time and mine considering he's still wrong.

Orks do not thrive in the EoT. The end. Anyone who touts Tuska's ... semi... victory(?) as an example of 'thriving' is way off base.

Dabedman wrote:Chaos needs humanity to thrive. Human desires power the Chaos Gods and this power is put to use to fight against the other Chaos Gods.

I read somewhere that the Gods really only care about "the Big Game" where they all duke it out for eternity just because that is what you do to pass the time when you are powerful enough.

It also stated that the HH only happened because the Emperor was gaining to much influence in the immaterium, or something like that ( that when the Imperium got stronger, Big E also got stronger just like the Chaos Gods do when worship is practiced in their name.)

That HH was a time when the Gods made a short break in the Big Game to turn their united focus on to kicking humanitys' backside.

But this failed because Horus was a human and thus prone to idiocy and let the Emperor get onto his ship and shoot him with mind bullets.

NOW, my point is, Chaos would not dominate the galaxy because without the united Imperium, Chaos has no reason to go into the real world except to coerce humans into better worshipping practices.

As for who would actually dominate the galaxy then I think that since the Ultramarines weren't there for the final battle, they would simply go to Cadia and offer Ursarkar E. Creed a job as Senior Advisor to the Patriarch.
This would of course become the single most powerful army possible and wipe out everything in the galaxy.
Case. Closed.

If I may...

Chaos requires sentient, emotional life that is bound to the Warp to thrive. This seems to rule out the Tau and Orks, but everything else is fair game.

The gods don't only care about the Great Game. They turn their attention to the material realm to ensure their supply of emotion will doesn't run out. They also have a few side hobbies. Tzeentch constructs elaborate plots for no reason, Khorne collects skulls, Slaanesh has a palace full of the damned to mess with and Nurgle tests plagues and spreads fear. If I may use a metaphor, a WoW player may have only three people he considers his rivals, but that doesn't stop him from going on raids if he needs or wants to.

AFAIK, the gods stopped the crusades because the Imperial Truth was cutting off some of their supply by denying them religion, and so dedicated sacrifice.

Horus let the Emperor for any number of reasons, among them:
1)Only he was allowed to kill his father.
2)He needed a quick finish to the battle.
3)A repressed piece of love or guilt forced him to give his father a fair chance at victory.

Chaos would indeed dominate the galaxy. It creeps into the minds of the unprotected, and the gods don't need to exert any great effort to let someone's own sins damn them.

PS, wasn't the garrison on Cadia established after the Heresy, making the Ultramarines recruiting Creed (10'000 years after the Heresy) impossible?

IronSnake wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

IronSnake wrote:

Man... too long. I didn't need a history lesson. I know the fluff. This is about the orks supposedly 'thriving' in the EoT. Which they cannot do. If they were, they wouldn't be stuck in an endless meaningless cycle of reliving the battle in which they...... died.

If you want to make a point, hear them out and make counterpoints. If you ignore points made against your theory it does not make your point right. And believe it or not that wall of text you didn't read pertained to the topic of Orks in the EoT and pretty much nullified your Emperor idea.

Go back, read it again, and come up with a counter.

Relax, chief. I read it. The bulk of what was posted did not counter my point to begin with. Orks DO NOT THRIVE IN THE EYE OF TERROR. One odd event aka; Tuska getting trapped in an endless death cycle does not prove anything.

Just pointing it out, nothing personal.

Tuska did stomp what, 7 daemon worlds before getting beat down? With a relatively small Waaagh!? I think that's damn good and if it had been a good sized Waaagh!, who knows what would have happened?

81Northman wrote:Nothing changes

I'm going to agree with this and take it up a notch. I don't think that things would be much different for humans either. Horus would have won and set up a rigid hierarchy based around a cult of personality that was defended by uber-warriors sworn to absolute loyalty (but who sometimes switch sides), being scarcely managed by a massive, ruthless interstellar bureaucracy. There would be constant fighting with xenos and heretics (though the definition of that would change somewhat), with endless petty rebellions constantly needing to put down.

In other words, it would be the imperium, except horus would be in charge.

As for everyone else talking about chaos, you're all missing one crucial point. Just as chaos itself is composed of primal human emotion, they are arranged along primal human political structures. The only reason why chaos has any semblance of strength and unity is because they have a common enemy. Without that enemy, they wouldn't get stronger, because there wouldn't be anything to unite them.

It's sort of like how when anybody invades Afghanistan or Somalia (or any tribal-system society). Everybody fights each other until there is a common enemy, which they all band together to fight. When the fighting is over, they immediately devolve to petty factionalism again.

The exact same thing would happen to chaos. If horus took over, he would be a common enemy to any one chaos god's attempt to dominate, and so they would have the same level of quasi-unity, except it would be against Horus (who would be obliged to fight back in order to keep power), their one-time champion, rather than the emperor.

Really, I don't see how much of anything would have been different if the civil war had gone the other way. A part of the fluff which I think GW has created on purpose.