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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 18:00:23
Subject: Rage USR
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If bezerkers had the rage rule, of course
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 18:12:15
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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nosferatu1001 wrote:If bezerkers had the rage rule, of course
lol. Yep, caught that some time after I had posted. Must have been thinking of 3rd edition Berserkers. So I just started using "raging unit" instead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 18:30:04
Subject: Rage USR
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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They didnt have :Rage" then either - thats a 5th ed special rule. Back then they moved towards the nearest unit, nothing about visible!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 18:45:28
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Chaos_Destroyer wrote:DeathReaper wrote:It is simple, either infantry can look around as they move, and the game works just fine.
But if they are looking around as they move, then they would always move to the closest enemy unit that becomes visible, so then they would first move towards the dread, then enemy A, then enemy B, all in one movement phase. There's nothing in the rules that really explain how you determine what is visible in the movement phase. That is covered in the shooting phase, which is after the movement phase is already over. It does say in the shooting phase that you turn models to face their target, as you have to draw LOS from the models eyes to the target, so facing does matter. Otherwise, why bother to put in the rules that in the shooting phase models need to turn to face their target?
You are missing something, however; models can always draw LOS through members of their unit.
LOS is drawn from the eyes of the model; models can always draw LOS through members of their unit. Models are always members of their own unit, by definition.
Models can draw LOS through themselves. That negates all facing issues. Do note, however, that there is a FAQ exception for vehicles; they can't see through themselves, though I believe they still can through any other vehicles in their squadron.
Back onto Rage: Honestly, I'm sort of inclined to say that yes, if 'closest unit in LOS' changes during the phase, the raging units 'target' will alter. It's the Movement Phase, unit A is the closest unit in LOS, so you move towards it some distance; now unit B has come into LOS, and it's closer. It's the Movement Phase, unit B is the closest unit in LOS, so you move towards it until your move distance is used up or some other unit becomes visible which is closer. The logic is exactly the same.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/08 18:46:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 18:47:26
Subject: Rage USR
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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The closest visible will be determined in the movement phase before the unit moves. You do not keep determining the closest visible unit as you move, as rage has already forced you to move toward a certain unit. rigeld2 wrote:..Models don't have a 360 degree LOS. BeRzErKeR wrote:You are missing something, however; models can always draw LOS through members of their unit. LOS is drawn from the eyes of the model; models can always draw LOS through members of their unit. Models are always members of their own unit, by definition. Models have a 360 degree LoS according to the 'models can always draw LOS through members of their unit' clause.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/08 18:50:56
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 18:52:02
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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DeathReaper wrote:The closest visible will be determined in the movement phase before the unit moves.
You do not keep determining the closest visible unit as you move, as rage has already forced you to move toward a certain unit.
But it doesn't say anywhere that you only decide ONCE. You're explicitly given permission to move in different directions during a phase, by the general Movement rules; Rage doesn't override that, it just adds a condition, which is that you must move towards the nearest visible enemy unit.
I can't find anything that says that's decided once and never revised. Your LOS shifts constantly as you move; that means that which units are in LOS might also shift, and the Rage rule never goes out of force. You ALWAYS have to move towards the nearest visible enemy unit; if at some point you AREN'T moving towards the nearest visible enemy unit, you're breaking the rule, aren't you?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:00:20
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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BeRzErKeR wrote:[Models can draw LOS through themselves. That negates all facing issues.
Except that the rules say that models are turned to face the target they are shooting at in the shooting phase. If they could see through the back of their skull, there would be no reason to include the rule about turning to face the target.
DeathReaper wrote:The closest visible will be determined in the movement phase before the unit moves.
You do not keep determining the closest visible unit as you move, as rage has already forced you to move toward a certain unit.
If the rules said that the Raging unit moved towards the closest enemy unit that was visible at the start of the movement phase, then I would agree they would continue towards that unit. However, it doesn't, and under the "360 degree" interpretation, Raging units would change direction possibly several times during a single movement phase.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/08 19:02:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:00:54
Subject: Rage USR
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Dakka Veteran
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nosferatu1001 wrote:From the eyes of the model.
Wow, this is true, and if your model doesn't have eyes, it can't shoot according to RAW.
I can just model blindfolds on my death company or file off their eyes and they are never subject to the Rage rule since they don't have eyes. They're armed for close combat, so I never need to draw Line of Sight for them. Thanks for the tip!
By the way what arc of fire do you consider an infantry model to have when you play?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:03:38
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:From the eyes of the model.
Wow, this is true, and if your model doesn't have eyes, it can't shoot according to RAW.
I can just model blindfolds on my death company or file off their eyes and they are never subject to the Rage rule since they don't have eyes. They're armed for close combat, so I never need to draw Line of Sight for them. Thanks for the tip!
By the way what arc of fire do you consider an infantry model to have when you play?
It's even better than that; if a model doesn't have eyes, by RAW it can't do ANYTHING that requires LOS! Yaaaaaay!
Unless it's a vehicle, that is, since vehicle LOS is different.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:05:57
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:From the eyes of the model.
Wow, this is true, and if your model doesn't have eyes, it can't shoot according to RAW.
I can just model blindfolds on my death company or file off their eyes and they are never subject to the Rage rule since they don't have eyes. They're armed for close combat, so I never need to draw Line of Sight for them. Thanks for the tip!
By the way what arc of fire do you consider an infantry model to have when you play?
Except that is what is called "modeling for advantage" and is very much frowned upon....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:14:10
Subject: Rage USR
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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BeRzErKeR wrote:But it doesn't say anywhere that you only decide ONCE. You're explicitly given permission to move in different directions during a phase, by the general Movement rules; Rage doesn't override that, it just adds a condition, which is that you must move towards the nearest visible enemy unit.
I can't find anything that says that's decided once and never revised. Your LOS shifts constantly as you move; that means that which units are in LOS might also shift, and the Rage rule never goes out of force. You ALWAYS have to move towards the nearest visible enemy unit; if at some point you AREN'T moving towards the nearest visible enemy unit, you're breaking the rule, aren't you?
Rage rules P.76 "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."
So before you move you have to determine what the "closest visible enemy" is and "move as fast as possible towards" them.
It is in the rules right there.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:15:26
Subject: Rage USR
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Dakka Veteran
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Chaos_Destroyer wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:From the eyes of the model.
Wow, this is true, and if your model doesn't have eyes, it can't shoot according to RAW.
I can just model blindfolds on my death company or file off their eyes and they are never subject to the Rage rule since they don't have eyes. They're armed for close combat, so I never need to draw Line of Sight for them. Thanks for the tip!
By the way what arc of fire do you consider an infantry model to have when you play?
Except that is what is called "modeling for advantage" and is very much frowned upon....
Right, I will just have to stick to turning my death company backwards. Is there any disadvantage to climbing ruins or difficult terrain while moving backwards?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:16:47
Subject: Rage USR
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Turning them backwards does not help. BeRzErKeR wrote:You are missing something, however; models can always draw LOS through members of their unit. LOS is drawn from the eyes of the model; models can always draw LOS through members of their unit. Models are always members of their own unit, by definition.
Models have a 360 degree LoS according to the 'models can always draw LOS through members of their unit' clause.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/02/08 19:17:24
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:17:46
Subject: Re:Rage USR
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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Why is this even an argument anyway? Rage doesn't even work RAW - you can't draw LOS in the movement phase.
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WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:18:00
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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DeathReaper wrote:BeRzErKeR wrote:But it doesn't say anywhere that you only decide ONCE. You're explicitly given permission to move in different directions during a phase, by the general Movement rules; Rage doesn't override that, it just adds a condition, which is that you must move towards the nearest visible enemy unit.
I can't find anything that says that's decided once and never revised. Your LOS shifts constantly as you move; that means that which units are in LOS might also shift, and the Rage rule never goes out of force. You ALWAYS have to move towards the nearest visible enemy unit; if at some point you AREN'T moving towards the nearest visible enemy unit, you're breaking the rule, aren't you?
Rage rules P.76 "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."
So before you move you have to determine what the "closest visible enemy" is and "move as fast as possible towards" them.
It is in the rules right there.
Moving "as fast as possible" means that you can't simply move one inch toward them. You have to move your full movement rate towards the closest visible enemy. This is lifted for running and consolidating, as you don't have to move your full rate. If another unit becomes visible as you move and is closer, then you must change direction and move as fast as possible toward the closest visible enemy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:20:57
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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DeathReaper wrote:
Rage rules P.76 "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."
So before you move you have to determine what the "closest visible enemy" is and "move as fast as possible towards" them.
It is in the rules right there.
Except it never says "before you move, determine what the closest visible enemy unit is and move as fast as possible towards that unit".
It says, "in the movement phase (not some part of the movement phase but the whole thing), units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."
Bit in parentheses added.
Here's the problem with your interpretation; let's say we have 3 units, A, B, and X. Unit X has Rage, which means it always has to move towards the closest enemy unit. It can see unit A; unit B is closer, but it is hidden behind a wall and cannot be seen when the Movement phase begins.
Unit X, therefore, moves towards unit A. That's not disputed. But after moving 4", a model from unit X can see a model from unit B.
Refer back to the Rage rule. "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."
Unit B is the closest enemy unit. It is visible. It is currently unit X's movement phase. According to the Rage rule, it must, therefore, move towards unit B as fast as possible. Since it has already moved 4", it can only move 2" more; it moves 2" towards unit B. If it doesn't move towards unit B but instead continues towards unit A, it has broken the rule; it did not move towards the closest visible enemy unit during the entirety of its movement phase, which is what Rage requires.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/08 19:22:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:22:37
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Nemesor Dave wrote:Chaos_Destroyer wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:From the eyes of the model.
Wow, this is true, and if your model doesn't have eyes, it can't shoot according to RAW.
I can just model blindfolds on my death company or file off their eyes and they are never subject to the Rage rule since they don't have eyes. They're armed for close combat, so I never need to draw Line of Sight for them. Thanks for the tip!
By the way what arc of fire do you consider an infantry model to have when you play?
Except that is what is called "modeling for advantage" and is very much frowned upon....
Right, I will just have to stick to turning my death company backwards. Is there any disadvantage to climbing ruins or difficult terrain while moving backwards?
Running backwards would only work if the enemy is all the way on the other side of the table. As soon as something comes into the models peripheral vision you have to move towards them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:23:21
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Nemesor Dave wrote:
Right, I will just have to stick to turning my death company backwards. Is there any disadvantage to climbing ruins or difficult terrain while moving backwards?
Nope, won't work; everything except vehicles has 360-degree LOS, remember?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:24:34
Subject: Rage USR
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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It comes down to a question:
What is the "closest visible enemy unit"?
we have to ask this before we start moving.
once you find the answer, then you move towards it. as fast as possible.
the closest visible enemy unit has been determined, so you do not go back and re-assess what the closest visible enemy unit is once you start moving, as the condition of moving towards the closest visible enemy unit has been fulfilled.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:28:20
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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DeathReaper wrote:It comes down to a question:
What is the "closest visible enemy unit"?
we have to ask this before we start moving.
once you find the answer, then you move towards it. as fast as possible.
the closest visible enemy unit has been determined, so you do not go back and re-assess what the closest visible enemy unit is once you start moving, as the condition of moving towards the closest visible enemy unit has been fulfilled.
But it isn't a one-time condition, it's a state of being. Rage is not a checkbox you have to mark off every turn, it is a directive that has to be followed at every point. It has to be re-assessed constantly. Rage doesn't say "before you move, determine this". It says, "Whenever you move, you must move in this manner", and those two are different things.
Yes, you have to ask before you start moving. And you have to KEEP asking, every single time you move any distance, because you're breaking the rule if you move in any direction which is not towards the closest visible enemy unit, even if that's a different unit than it was a minute ago, at any time during the movement phase.
Or, to rephrase; you are treating 'closest visible enemy unit' as if it's a quality which is added to one particular unit at the beginning of the movement phase, and then stays with them. It isn't, it's a description of relative positions, and that description will alter as the unit moves. Rage requires you to keep track of those alterations, and adjust your movement so as to always comply with certain requirements. You can't just check once and then not do so again.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/08 19:29:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:28:45
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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BeRzErKeR wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
Right, I will just have to stick to turning my death company backwards. Is there any disadvantage to climbing ruins or difficult terrain while moving backwards?
Nope, won't work; everything except vehicles has 360-degree LOS, remember?
Again, if they do, then why the rule that models turn to face their target in the shooting phase? Couldn't they see them through the back of their skull without having to turn to face them?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:30:32
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Chaos_Destroyer wrote:
Again, if they do, then why the rule that models turn to face their target in the shooting phase? Couldn't they see them through the back of their skull without having to turn to face them?
To cover vehicles for one, to preserve aesthetics for another, and to ensure that you measure correctly from non-round units for a third. Turning a bike, for instance, changes its range by a certain distance, because the base of the model is longer than it is wide.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/08 19:30:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:33:31
Subject: Rage USR
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Dakka Veteran
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BeRzErKeR wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
Right, I will just have to stick to turning my death company backwards. Is there any disadvantage to climbing ruins or difficult terrain while moving backwards?
Nope, won't work; everything except vehicles has 360-degree LOS, remember?
This is what I thought too, but I can't find it in the BRB. Only thing I found was that LoS is drawn from the models eyes. So RAW you can turn your model around.
Do you know the page number for that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:35:25
Subject: Rage USR
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Nemesor Dave wrote:
This is what I thought too, but I can't find it in the BRB. Only thing I found was that LoS is drawn from the models eyes. So RAW you can turn your model around.
Do you know the page number for that?
Same page, a bit further down. Models can always draw LOS through members of their own unit.
A model is always, by definition, a member of its own unit.
QED: a model is allowed to draw LOS through themselves. Models can therefore see through the back of their own head, and no, that doesn't make any sense. But it does mean that just turning the model around to face the other way won't stop them from drawing LOS.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/08 19:35:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:40:28
Subject: Rage USR
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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It actually says: Rage rules P.76 "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy." and not BeRzErKeR wrote:"Whenever you move, you must move in this manner"
in the movement phase, units with this rule, most always move as fast as possible (AkA. 6 inches If possible) towards the closest visible enemy unit. This MUST be determined before you move. if you try to determine this after you move you do not know which direction to go in.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/02/08 19:41:46
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:41:44
Subject: Rage USR
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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BeRzErKeR wrote:Chaos_Destroyer wrote:
Again, if they do, then why the rule that models turn to face their target in the shooting phase? Couldn't they see them through the back of their skull without having to turn to face them?
To cover vehicles for one, to preserve aesthetics for another, and to ensure that you measure correctly from non-round units for a third. Turning a bike, for instance, changes its range by a certain distance, because the base of the model is longer than it is wide.
Warhammer 40K uses True LOS. not everything has 360 degree LOS. There is nothing that has 360 degree LOS unless otherwise specified. This includes all vehicles, including Walkers (which must turn in the Shooting Phase to face what they are shooting.)
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:44:52
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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BeRzErKeR wrote:Chaos_Destroyer wrote:
Again, if they do, then why the rule that models turn to face their target in the shooting phase? Couldn't they see them through the back of their skull without having to turn to face them?
To cover vehicles for one, to preserve aesthetics for another, and to ensure that you measure correctly from non-round units for a third. Turning a bike, for instance, changes its range by a certain distance, because the base of the model is longer than it is wide.
Or simply for the reason given in the rulebook, to draw LOS from the model's eyes to its target....
And vehicles can't pivot towards their target in the shooting phase.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:46:03
Subject: Rage USR
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Especially as youre told to determine LOS by looking behind their heads. Difficult to do that from in front of them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 19:51:27
Subject: Rage USR
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Fresh-Faced New User
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DeathReaper wrote:It actually says: Rage rules P.76 "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy." and not BeRzErKeR wrote:"Whenever you move, you must move in this manner"
in the movement phase, units with this rule, most always move as fast as possible (AkA. 6 inches If possible) towards the closest visible enemy unit.
This MUST be determined before you move. if you try to determine this after you move you do not know which direction to go in.
Sure you do! Look at the illustration I posted. The Raging unit starts its move towards the Dread because it is the only visible enemy (not necessarilly the closest though). As soon as the Raging unit rounds the corner of the building, with your 360 degree interpretation, enemy A becomes the closest visible enemy, and then moves toward them as fast as possible. As soon as they pass the high wall that was hiding enemy B, enemy B becomes the closest visible enemy and so the Raging unit moves toward them if it has enough movement left. The "move as fast as possible" just forces the Raging unit to move its full movement rate towards the closest visible enemy. Otherwise, the Raging unit could just move 1' and still be in front of the building, and out of LOS of enemies A and B.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/08 20:08:32
Subject: Rage USR
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Beaver Dam, WI
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And therein lies the screw of Rage. If I know you have a unit subject to it, I just make sure in MY movement phase that the closest thing to you is not something you want to charge... Say I have GK and a unit of strike marines and a unit of purifiers backed up by a dreadnought....
You have a hoard with one PK, I am probably going to set you up that you have to close with the purifiers so I can CLEANSING FLAME you. OTOH, say you have no PK, I may bring forward the dreadnought since you can't harm it.
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