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Rage says you move towards the nearest unit...is it possible to "skirt" around them, staying within one inch (i.e. as close as possible) but positioning yourself around?
My opponant does this so he can charge at someone else, it makes Rage something of a non-nerf.

So long as you move towards the unit, it's legal. However until you are within 1 inch of the unit, you must move towards it. You can't move the front units up to 1 inch, and the rest slip to the side, it's a straight line. Think of a wave crashing upon a wall, it moves forward until it can't anymore, when the water flows along the edge.

juraigamer wrote:So long as you move towards the unit, it's legal. However until you are within 1 inch of the unit, you must move towards it. You can't move the front units up to 1 inch, and the rest slip to the side, it's a straight line. Think of a wave crashing upon a wall, it moves forward until it can't anymore, when the water flows along the edge.

This.

Every model in the unit must be 1" away, otherwise, you're not as close as possible.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

juraigamer wrote:So long as you move towards the unit, it's legal. However until you are within 1 inch of the unit, you must move towards it. You can't move the front units up to 1 inch, and the rest slip to the side, it's a straight line. Think of a wave crashing upon a wall, it moves forward until it can't anymore, when the water flows along the edge.

This.

Every model in the unit must be 1" away, otherwise, you're not as close as possible.

Iranna.

This is not true. Once a single model is 1" away, the unit is as close as it can get. The rest of the models in the unit can literally do anything possible afterward.

juraigamer wrote:So long as you move towards the unit, it's legal. However until you are within 1 inch of the unit, you must move towards it. You can't move the front units up to 1 inch, and the rest slip to the side, it's a straight line. Think of a wave crashing upon a wall, it moves forward until it can't anymore, when the water flows along the edge.

But once you're 1" away can you carry on moving, so long as you're within 1"?

Joey wrote:But once you're 1" away can you carry on moving, so long as you're within 1"?

Rage rules P.76 "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."

So it seems that you can move as long as you "move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy"

I.E. make sure the closest model in the unit is 1 inch away.

So it's not actually much of a disadvantage...I find it strange that a unit should be full of rage and rush towards the nearest enemy unit...then skirt around them and charge someone else.

In this situation the Rage rule kind of falls apart as once the entire unit is within 1" of an enemy unit they can no longer move any closer. Typically one of the 2 units gets shot/assaulted which fixes this issue, but really there is no ruling to govern what a Rage unit can do when moving if within 1" of an enemy unit.

The entire unit doesnt need to get to within 1", only one member does - see measuring to units

I assume the same would the same apply if a unit with rage moved only enough models to move the front edge 6" closer and maintain coherency, in effect keeping some of the unit where they are (in order to hold an objective etc)?

Measuring distances on Page 3 tells us that "When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points"

So you need to move the unit with rage as close as possible to the nearest visible enemy unit.

So as long as you have done that and maintained coherency, you are good.

I have an additional query along these lines regarding the Mad Dok. He and his unit have the same requirement to move towards and assault the nearest unit "if possible". There is no requirement to shoot at or run towards the nearest unit. Can he, and any unit with the Rage equivalent, use running or shooting at a different unit to avoid assaulting the closest one?

gak like this and the way people try to interpret rules to their advantage pisses me off so much.

come on people... it's RAGE, you go towards the nearest unit, period...


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Seriously though, if someone did this to me, I'd just walk up to their side of the table, get as close as I could to them and constantly repeat "I'm not touching you" until my point was made clear.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:I have an additional query along these lines regarding the Mad Dok. He and his unit have the same requirement to move towards and assault the nearest unit "if possible". There is no requirement to shoot at or run towards the nearest unit. Can he, and any unit with the Rage equivalent, use running or shooting at a different unit to avoid assaulting the closest one?

the rage USR says you can shoot or run, but if you run you will do so towards the closest visible enemy unit. Not sure what Mad Dok says, but units with the Rage USR do not have to assault the closest unit, just move, and if they run, towards the closest visible enemy unit.
I would imagine, without having the Mad Dok's rules, that you could shoot something else, but no book so I can not check the rule.

Disarray wrote:gak like this and the way people try to interpret rules to their advantage pisses me off so much.

come on people... it's RAGE, you go towards the nearest unit, period...

Seriously though, if someone did this to me, I'd just walk up to their side of the table, get as close as I could to them and constantly repeat "I'm not touching you" until my point was made clear.

Yes, you move towards the nearest unit. If you run instead of shoot you move towards the nearest unit. You can assault any unit that is in range though you are not forced to assault anything.

It is perfectly legal to move towards the nearest unit with the closest model while keeping other models in the unit set of for an assault on a different unit.

Disarray wrote:the way people try to interpret rules to their advantage pisses me off so much.

Should I drop my Warboss to WS 4 just so he doesn't have such an advantage over units that have less?

Disarray wrote:come on people... it's RAGE, you go towards the nearest unit, period...

And once you are 1" away from more than one unit, do you assault them all? Do you pick just one? If so, does it have to be the original one only?

Disarray wrote:repeat "I'm not touching you" until my point was made clear.

What is your point? This is a discussion on the single proper way to interpret the rules, not the way we wish the rules were written, and you are not contributing to it.

And, yes, I am looking for every advantage I can gain against a host of other players doing the same. And just because I could play that way does not mean that I will. It generally depends on my opponent. Before you say, "You could just walk away" or "You could just annoy them until they give in or leave", both options are not readily available at Tournament play, which is where knowledge like this will most come in handy.

Disarray wrote:gak like this and the way people try to interpret rules to their advantage pisses me off so much.

come on people... it's RAGE, you go towards the nearest unit, period...


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Seriously though, if someone did this to me, I'd just walk up to their side of the table, get as close as I could to them and constantly repeat "I'm not touching you" until my point was made clear.

There's no interpretation. This is as black and white as the rules get.

Are you sure you know which forum you're in?

"In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."

Couple of questions:

1. How exactly do you determine what is "visible" for the purpose of Rage. I have been told that models "see" 360 degrees, but the rulebook says that you trace LOS from the models eyes, but that is only done in the shooting phase

2. When do you make the determination of what the closest visible enemy is?

For example, a squad of Berserkers is facing a Dreadnought that is 12" away. The Berserkers are at the corner of an intact building. As they move towards the dread, enemy unit A now becomes visible (since apparently they "see" 360 degrees constantly), and they are 8", making them now the closest visible enemy unit. They change directions and move towards enemy unit A, but as they pass a high wall, enemy unit B becomes visible, and so they move towards enemy unit B because they are now the closest visible enemy unit.




Is this really how the rule is supposed to work, with the raging unit changing directions and targets many times during a single movement phase? To me it would be more in the spirit of the rules that the Berserkers continue their move towards the Dread as that is the only enemy they see at the start of their turn, and therefore they focus all their attention on it instead of looking over their shoulder for another unit. But I don't see anything in the rules that would support that, if the models can constantly "see" 360 degrees.

#1: find out which unit is the closest and check if they are completely out of LoS. (it tells us on P.11 to not worry about which way they are pointing at the end of the movement phase, this implies a 360 degree 'Vision' for models).

#2: you make the determination "In the movement phase" (P.76 rage rules) So as soon as its the movement phase, and you go to move the unit, you have to check for the nearest visible unit.

Once you have determined this, it will not change. You will have already started moving in the movement phase, and it gives no allowance to re-check for the closest visible unit.
.
In your example, the only visible unit is the dread, so you will move as fast as possible toward it.

Page 11 says not to worry about which way they're facing because they can turn when they shoot. Models don't have a 360 degree LOS.

It implies that models have a 360 LoS.

If infantry do not have 360 LoS then you can face units with rage away from the game, and they are now able to do what they want. Which is a silly interpretation.

Or the warriors will actually look to see what is around them and that will give them 360 LoS and that seems like a reasonable way to play the game.

Nevermind. I've had this discussion in this forum before and I wasn't proven wrong. It was in a thread about the monoliths magic door. I'm not going to restate everything here.

It is simple, either infantry can look around as they move, and the game works just fine.

Or they can not and you can run backwards and totally negate the downsides of Rage.

The better way to play it is the first way.

Sometimes RaW is silly, and we have to try and find the best way to play it.

This is one of those times.

DeathReaper wrote:It is simple, either infantry can look around as they move, and the game works just fine.

Or they can not and you can run backwards and totally negate the downsides of Rage.

The better way to play it is the first way.

Sometimes RaW is silly, and we have to try and find the best way to play it.

This is one of those times.

There are specific rules for determining LOS and the facing of an infantry model does not effect this at all. It is 360. That and the idea that somehow a Space Marine who is insane with Rage and hatred for his enemy, knows where the enemy is and would deliberately run down the battlefield backwards so he doesn't "see" them is hilarious! I can see the new USR being Head In The Sand where a unit with Rage may put their Head In the Sand to calm down and not run towards the nearest enemy for a turn.

Moving backwards to rules-lawyer that you can circumvent the Rage USR?! If someone tried this stunt in my community he would be ridiculed so much he would probably start another hobby... And I can't see any TO accepting this... ever...

Holy crap...

Yes, sometimes RAW is silly. Yes, sometimes you need to use RAI. Yes, LOS as it pertains to rage is one of those times.

None of that changes my statements. You can state that HYWPI is a 360 LOS but the tenets of this forum say to be clear when you're discussing HYWPI vs RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:It is simple, either infantry can look around as they move, and the game works just fine.

But if they are looking around as they move, then they would always move to the closest enemy unit that becomes visible, so then they would first move towards the dread, then enemy A, then enemy B, all in one movement phase. There's nothing in the rules that really explain how you determine what is visible in the movement phase. That is covered in the shooting phase, which is after the movement phase is already over. It does say in the shooting phase that you turn models to face their target, as you have to draw LOS from the models eyes to the target, so facing does matter. Otherwise, why bother to put in the rules that in the shooting phase models need to turn to face their target?

Also, it doesn't say that once the nearest visible enemy is determined in the movement phase that that is the target unit for the remainder of the turn. Going back to the illustration, lets say the Dread is 18" away from the unit with Rage and enemy A is not visible but is within 3" of the Raging unit. If the unit with Rage also had fleet and moved 6" toward the Dread , ended their movement completely facing the Dread, but then in the shooting phase wanted to run in order to get closer to the dread to assault it, it would end up running back toward enemy A (now 9" away, the Dread being 12" away) because enemy A is the closest "visible" enemy because the Raging unit can see 360 degrees. If the Raging unit had to move towards the enemy based on the rules in the shooting phase, then it would still move toward the Dread because all the models in the Raging unit are facing the Dread.

Another question: we are told in the Shooting phase what parts of a model are used to determine what is visible, with wings and such not counting. So if the only thing we can see of the closest visible enemy is wings, does the Raging unit move towards it or not?

No, since you can't counts as seein something you can't draw LOS to.

rigeld2 wrote:No, since you can't counts as seein something you can't draw LOS to.

Right. And how do we determine LOS again?

From the eyes of the model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:From the eyes of the model.

Right. So in the second scenario, the Raging unit would run towards the Dread because it is in the LOS of the unit, whereas enemy A is not in LOS.