Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lynata wrote:Time for the usual blog quote I keep handy for threads like these ...

Gav Thorpe wrote:Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

So in short, there is no such thing as a "canon" in 40k, just as there is no such thing as a "non-canon". Everyone is quite simply free to make up what they want, including or excluding parts from other sources as they see fit. This includes THQ. They would not even be forced to pull that funny "parallel universe" crap excuse, but I imagine it's easier to sell to the fans than a straight "no, we're not canon". It's the same kind of weaseling-out you often see from Black Library novel authors when they're asked this sort of stuff. Nobody wants to admit that the writing in his product is basically licensed fan-fiction, as if they fear it would go down in value if they'd do so. That being said, and considering how solidly ingrained the notion of some "canon" is within the fandom (often leading to nerdrage on various community platforms), it might actually be true.

I dislike this logic. It's basically the "everything is relative" logic, which is kind of pointless because it's true for everything. You can pretend anything doesn't exist and substitute it with your own perception.

I feel like he dodged the question, really. The day I see Games Workshop stop making its own fluff is the day I'll believe that they really do consider everything to be "both canon and not canon".

Lynata wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Would make an awesome ability for Space Marines to turn into an actual Rhino or Razorback to transport his buddies.

Open up, Brother Ianus, your Sergeant wishes to enter you!

Im still laughing my a** off..

juraigamer wrote:Doh ho ho ho! sorcerer of khorne as lord of a space marine chapter, that's what we get if we accept THQ games as canon.

The space marine game is damn close to canon, everything else... is highly questionable. I'd send in the inquisition first.

Wasn't he possessed? And I don't think, barring telepathy, he ever uses psychic powers...

BlaxicanX wrote:I dislike this logic. It's basically the "everything is relative" logic, which is kind of pointless because it's true for everything. You can pretend anything doesn't exist and substitute it with your own perception.

Certainly, but in most cases there is an official statement to the contrary, an official canon policy. Like Star Wars that has clear rules on what source is able to override another, or Star Trek with its distinction between "hard" (movies and series) and "soft canon" (anything else). The difference with Games Workshop is that you don't need to pretend like a butthurt nerd that doesn't like some new development, you are totally entitled to ignoring stuff you don't like and cherrypicking your favs, and nobody should be able to call you out on it like it'd happen in the other IPs.

For 40k, it just seems as if the fans simply assumed it would be handled like the other major IPs, because it is common for a franchise like this. And then people went on conjuring a canon policy out of thin air, some going by "studio material > anything else" or "newer source > older, regardless of origin" and so on. And this, much like a lot of other hearsay (anyone remembers the topic on Space Marine height?) then gets presented as fact, resulting in any newbie adopting this out of trust to the community.
It worked the same for me until I finally grew sceptical due to the extensive conflicts throughout the licensed material and started to look for statements from the people who are actually involved with the IP.

And because of this we have all these fluff debates where people throw conflicting sources at each other or act as if something is fact when it is but a mere suggestion.

BlaxicanX wrote:I feel like he dodged the question, really. The day I see Games Workshop stop making its own fluff is the day I'll believe that they really do consider everything to be "both canon and not canon".

He was much more clear on the subject than most other people working for the franchise, though. I have gotten a somewhat defensive vibe from that blogpost as well - probably because of the dichotomy that many Black Library authors may happily disregard other sources to write their own ideas, but then dislike their own book being just as disregardable - but compared to, say, Dan Abnett's response to this question, Gav's answer was surprisingly transparent and enlightening.

As far as the studio and its fluff are concerned, I think it's less that they themselves consider everything to be "both canon and not canon" - this is a stance they allow the consumer to take, supporting its franchise by not outright admitting that licensed material is basically "just" quality fanfiction without consequence for the wider IP. The game designers themselves will continue to do what Gav has explained: Write their own stuff, occasionally "import" outside ideas they think are cool (such as the Taniths), and simply disregarding the rest.
It's just up to the individual gamer or reader to do likewise for their own perception of the setting. They are free to stick to GW stuff only, or incorporate other stuff from outsourced books/games they like, or even preferring the latter to GW material.

It's not perfect, but I can work with that. My personal solution is sticking to GW material as written by the studio, but adding select ideas from licensed products which I think fit seamlessly into the setting. I just have to remain aware that this is merely my own perception, but I think I've gotten used to weaving "disclaimers" into my posts whenever I talk about fluff.

It's not that EVERYTHING is canon. It's everything released directly or licensed by GW is canon.

While keeping in mind that although all sources are canon, NOT all sources are reliable. Every source is biased towards something. Each codex is propaganda which is biased towards its army, for example. Each of the BL books also tends towards this kind of bias, and as shown by Black Crusade, even the FFG books have their biases (DH = inquisition is awesome, RT = rogue traders are awesome, DW = marines are awesome, and BC = chaos heretics/marines are awesome). Which bias you get in a DoW game is based on what army wins, and Space Marine is biased, of course, towards space Marines in general (even Chaos marines get in on the act in their version of the Exterminatus game mode).

And that's what I meant with hearsay confusing people new to the hobby.

There should be some kind of law for mandatory quotes when stating something to be fact...

Like so:

Gav Thorpe wrote:With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy.

Um, as repeatedly pointed out on these forums.

These is no 'canon'. This is not a comic book.

1. THQ games feature LOTs of cannons.
2. You probably meant to type 'canon'.
3. 40K doesn't really have a hard-set 'canon'.
4. Even if it did, videogames would be tertiary sources at best.

Omegus wrote:4. Even if it did, videogames would be tertiary sources at best.

Except that GW doesn't consider them so.

I've always assumed they're canon - I don't see why they wouldn't be.

Contradictions with other sources, I reckon, as well as GW not supporting any sort of "canonicity" anyways - as expressed by the people who actually worked for the company instead of just selling their opinions as fact.

Perhaps it could be false stories. If you want to get hardcore, most lore comes from rembrancers, most rembrancers works were edited by a council of propagandist iterators and such. We are talking a span over a millennia, if not more. Sifting through the bs stories would not be an easy task. At least that's how I like to judge to help myself accept the ridiculousness spouted sometimes. Lots of book burnings maybe?

BLOODCLAWallday wrote:Lots of book burnings maybe?

The 2E SoB Codex includes a blurb about how the Ecclesiarchy keeps ancient records from the days during the Horus Heresy in its fabled Vault of Origins deep below the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra - books stored in humming stasis fields, with pages so brittle that they would crumble to dust the instant they are touched or turned.

Safeguarding books you aren't able to read. Somehow, I thought this was quite awesome. Gotta love the old fluff.

That's appalling. I had never actually found such quotes, and now that I have... Man, does it feel wrong.
Of course this is just my opinion, but this non-policy reeks of carelessness to an extent I'd have found unthinkable a few minutes ago. They created a fantasticly rich universe and now they're basically saying "consistency ? whuzzat lol" ... ?
I'm now certain you can find a picture of the GW logo if you look up a dictionary at "shameless".

That being said, I must admit I was following the same line as Lynata on such matters up until now, recently including codex material (two guesses at what prompted me to cross that line). Disregard the ludicrous, endorse the plausible. And I must say that although loose, their work is still better built and/or more vast than a lot I can think of right now.

Oh well, they make awesome models.

Hyd wrote:That's appalling.

An alternative viewpoint is that they want the reader to form their own opinions.

It's typical of GW, sloppy writing. I don't think the THQ-crap is canon personally.

Melissia wrote:An alternative viewpoint is that they want the reader to form their own opinions.

I think that's more something you do by inserting untold events or showing things from several credible but contradicting viewpoints (multiple Unreliable Narrators... which is a way to see BL authors I guess). Obviously you're left to your own devices as it is but not because of quality narration, just because the original authors couldn't give a damn.
It's really a personal view, I value consistency and world-building highly in my reading, and they usually come together by necessity. Seeing a verse of such epic scale orphaned like that makes me feel cheated.

OK, time to get off my soapbox

As for the THQ games, they made a terrible job at handling Chaos and the Alpha Legion, so I'd disregard. The galaxy is vast enough for the DoW events to have happened though ; nothing contradicts that bitter conflicts took place in a system named Kaurava or Aurelia.

i think of the games as canon. the whole "titus cannot have been captain since sicarius was" is likely just due to people seeing Titus' colours and assuming he was from the second company. that simply culd have been an error are a hint of carelessness on THQ's part. better to assume he is actually frm a different company than to assume the entr game happened in a parrallel universe.

No, no, THQ stated outright that Space Marine was not to be considered canon.

There is no such thing as "canon" in the franchise, anyways. THQ also never stated such thing (as far as I'm aware, and I have read that forum post), they stated it "takes place in a different timeline" as a cop-out regarding the aforementioned controversy.

Of course, one might say that it results in the same thing either way, given that in an alternate timeline any number of crap could be different. I'm sure that in some alternate timeline, Earth would be owned by the Imperivm Romanvm right now.

Gab for the new Emperor

Keep in mind that PC games follow their own rules due to game mechanics. Most feature planets where 4-12 races are active at the same time (not usually happening), most feature different campaign endings for all player races, while only at most one can be true in the 40k universe. And the endings are usually exaggerated, with e.g. Sororitas culling all imperial Space Marines and Guard when winning in Soul Storm.

So while some statements from PC games can be transferred to 40k tabletop/background, there is no automatism.

I think technically no. I also think that BL books are technically not considered to be part of the canon, and that it's just determined by what GW alone writes. However, most fans generally accept BL books as canon anyway.

Does the game "Space Marine" by THQ ever give a date in it of when this is happening?
If not Titus could be a Captain from some point in the chapters past?

Kroothawk wrote:Keep in mind that PC games follow their own rules due to game mechanics.

So basically like the tabletop, which deviates from the lore to follow its own game mechanics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zakiriel wrote:Does the game "Space Marine" by THQ ever give a date in it of when this is happening?
If not Titus could be a Captain from some point in the chapters past?

It takes place after the timeline of DoW2. Probably after the Marine victory in Retribution if I had my guess ,but it could also be after Chaos Rising or even between CR and DoW2.

It would have to occur after the 'nid invasion as one of the NPC Marines lost his arms to a Tyranid. Likewise it would have to occur before the end of the current timeline, as the Marine Codex notes that "Sicarius still leads it to this day", aka "now".

Unfortunately, in GW fluff only two Captains led the 2nd Company within this timeframe - Sicarius and his predecessor Agemman, who was already Captain before the 'nids showed up. So ... go figure.

NO. Blood ravens shouldn't be here, or should at least have a primarch...

Yes they should be here and they have a primarch, we just aren't sure which one it is obviously.

Lynata wrote:It would have to occur after the 'nid invasion

Well yeah. The 'nid invasion occurs before/during DoW2 (with that subsector being just one in the path fo the hive fleet).

Aye, the only thing I've ever seen of DoW2 were the trailer and that gorgeous Exterminatus cinematic - I don't have any idea on how this game and the Space Marine one my potentially be connected, so I was analyzing the latter alone.