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Of course, license fiction isn't going to be the source for truly great literature, but that doesn't mean the authors should be automatically excused from creating good, solid stories. ADB did a fairly good job characterizing Lorgar. It seems like a basic level of care could be applied to the foundation of the stories. Some of them are fairly good at that. I'm not demanding Camus. I'm just saying I can appreciate the authors who produce slightly better than average results.

Soladrin wrote:If your looking for reading on any literary or intellectual level black library isn't the place to look regardless of what series your looking at.

I personally liked KNF. As for the whole guilliman knew nothing issue, you have to remember that Calth is a LOOONG way from Istvaan and Terra , add warp storms and other shenanigens, and you get almost complete radio (or psyker?) silence.

Ok so we'll have to put it down to these then. But still, as far as I know there hasn't been a mention of anyone attempting to contact Roboute to warn him which just seems absurd to me. If it had been mentioned that an attempt has been made and an actual reason rather than what we as the reader attribute to it, I wouldn't question it. As it is, it seems a bit dumb, Much like the timeline in TOD.

I am enjoying the book none the less, don't get me wrong, things like this though irk me.

Kanluwen wrote:

You have to bear in mind that the news from Istvaan V? There was none for quite awhile. Horus' trap was pretty unexpected, and even then it was unbelievable. The audio drama "Raven's Flight" did a good job showing this, and it was only the Eisenstein which escaped the trap and was able to warn the Imperium at large of Horus' treachery.

IIRC:
- The Warmaster and his closest followers turned on their own Legionaires first.
- a warning was brought to Terra ( FotE ) by survivors and a counterforce dispatched
- parts of this counterforce were turncoats, but this seemed to go unnoticed and even NL got sent....
- the moment Horus was a valid target of imperial retribution, was the moment everyone should have been informed.
- but at Istvaan, Lorgar was present and he was at Calth too....
- so either the BL-team got the timeline totally confused ( and ToD hints at this..) or some of the actors in the series are blind and deaf.
- the WB failed to deliver a finishing blow and Roboute got to write his codex and rebuild the IoM.
- after Istvaan 5 the size of treachery was no longer hidden as 3 Legions escaped and their successors exist 10 millenia after this.
- the RG for example went to Terra...

So either Lorgar was everywhere at once or his new masters helped a lot to get him and his minions ASAP to Calth before Gulliman noticed what was going on. Still the original reason to dispatch 7 Legions was before the dropsite massacre and thus no secret and Horus new allegiance shouldn't be unknown to Gulliman. Maybe the WB contingent at Terra and the Contingent sent to Isstvan could keep their changed loyalities a secret before the massacre, but then the WB would have to have another contingent on the way to Calth already to arrive before anyone can warn Gulliman.
The problem is the time needed to assemble and transport 7 Legions towards Istvaan.
The news of the betrayal reached Terra pretty early ( ToD ) and IMO after Istvaan the lines were drawn.
Contact has to be lost for weeks or months to allow for the ultras getting ambushed this way.
Is there a hint for this? KNF has rituals to start the warpstorms...but thats too late to be useful in any way or form at Calth.
There are artifacts from Istvaan used too....

Pilau Rice wrote: But still, as far as I know there hasn't been a mention of anyone attempting to contact Roboute to warn him which just seems absurd to me. If it had been mentioned that an attempt has been made and an actual reason rather than what we as the reader attribute to it, I wouldn't question it. As it is, it seems a bit dumb, Much like the timeline in TOD.

A warning would have ruined it.... and we know from BftA that one part of the plan of the Word Bearers was ruined already.

I actually really liked Deliverance Lost. Unlike Outcast dead it had me hooked straight from the outset and didn't let go all of the way through. Don't get me wrong, I liked outcast dead, but I loved Deliverance lost, and I actually haven't read all of the HH novels yet. I've only read Horus Rising, Fulgrim, the First Heretic, Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost, so I'm not a massive HH follower, and also, I have puposefully refrained from collecting a Marine army. ever. So I'm not especially big into Raven Guard either. But I'm definately going to get Know No Fear.

1hadhq wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote: But still, as far as I know there hasn't been a mention of anyone attempting to contact Roboute to warn him which just seems absurd to me. If it had been mentioned that an attempt has been made and an actual reason rather than what we as the reader attribute to it, I wouldn't question it. As it is, it seems a bit dumb, Much like the timeline in TOD.

A warning would have ruined it.... and we know from BftA that one part of the plan of the Word Bearers was ruined already.

What the story needed was a more plausible and less "hand wave" reason why the Ultramarines didn't see it coming. The way it was depicted that Calth happens several months after Istvaan V and the Ultramarines were business as usual despite the mobilization of seven legions to attack five traitor legions, an event that was both entirely unprecedented and involved 2/3rds of the Legions just seems a little stupid.

And before a mouth-foamer tries to explain the reasoning behind this, please stop. I will be very specific that the reasoning provided doesn't seem to be plausible, and seems very dependent on the suspension of disbelief. Plus, the fact that KNF completely ignores the ending (or events) of Battle For the Abyss (a terrible novel, but they did publish it) kinda bugs me.

I thought Deliverance Lost was an average read compared to the rest of the novels. It had great potential but it just failed on numerous levels.

The Alpha Legion shouldn't have featured in the book at all. The failure should have been 100% Corax's fault. If I had written it, the failure would have happened because they were trying to go too fast. Making Astartes in such a small amount of time without the years of prep and selection should have backfired resulting in the hideous creatures. This would have provided a good object lesson.

However, it really seems like they were just trying to figure out a way to include the Alpha Legion in the heresy, while giving them a bit more depth than the book Legion had.

I liked the Raven Guard and I really wanted them to succeed. A good twist on the whole civil war thing would have had Corax warring with himself. Namely, how hard to push to build his legion and get back into the fight.

1hadhq wrote:
A warning would have ruined it.... and we know from BftA that one part of the plan of the Word Bearers was ruined already.

Yes it would and it would not have been a surprise attack. But to have Guilliman so unaware of anything taking place elsewhere seems ludicrous. So the Mustering at Calth was huge, but to be so cut off from the events happening outside. Seems to be against everything that was implied in the way that the Ultramarines are.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What the story needed was a more plausible and less "hand wave" reason why the Ultramarines didn't see it coming. The way it was depicted that Calth happens several months after Istvaan V and the Ultramarines were business as usual despite the mobilization of seven legions to attack five traitor legions, an event that was both entirely unprecedented and involved 2/3rds of the Legions just seems a little stupid.

And before a mouth-foamer tries to explain the reasoning behind this, please stop. I will be very specific that the reasoning provided doesn't seem to be plausible, and seems very dependent on the suspension of disbelief. Plus, the fact that KNF completely ignores the ending (or events) of Battle For the Abyss (a terrible novel, but they did publish it) kinda bugs me.

Thank you, glad I am not the only one that see's the gap here. It's not necessarily months after Istvaan V, it seems as if it is more just after. But it still doesn't explain how the Ultramarines don't know what is going on at all.

I really liked the little references in Oll's chapters to what he'd done before the book. They were always worth a chuckle. I always fail at doing spoilers so I don't want to write them in...just in case, you see.

Pilau Rice wrote: But to have Guilliman so unaware of anything taking place elsewhere seems ludicrous. So the Mustering at Calth was huge, but to be so cut off from the events happening outside. Seems to be against everything that was implied in the way that the Ultramarines are.

Agreed.

The Word Bearers had time to collect geneseed from the fallen at Istvaan 3 and.....5 to use in their ritual at Calth.
Should have taken some time, to collect it all after a fight where Legions had to assemble for and travel to and bring it to calth afterwards.

Maybe we are missing the small bit where Gulliman isn't sure if Lorgar was at Calth in person. This could be the only explanation saving it partially, the WB spreading their forces and still keeping them in contact with help from their new "masters". Something like using the warp as we see at end from Erebus, who just steps in...
Would solve the second issue how they got to Calth before the events at Istvaan were known as a failure. But the primary problem stays.
To recall and assemble 7 Legions going unnoticed by Gulliman and the XIII Legio.

Cause the warp storms, were started by that ritual at Calth.

Leaves the option:
- the author planned the UM as being totally surprised by the change of loyalities and missed the date where the treachery was no longer a secret. If he just kept it to horus and 4 followers , the WB wouldn't be an obvious traitor to Gulliman as they were part of the expeditionary force sent. OtoH why should the XIII care for a few greenskins when a brother has turned?
- the author shouldn't have put Lorgars boasting about the treachery at istvaan and the sacrifice of geneseed in. Thus Calth could be before / at the same time as Istvaan.

A minor issue perhaps but one of the things that bugged me about 'Know No Fear' (which I thoroughly enjoyed) was the Ultramarines organization.

The Legion is divided into 25 "chapters" with each of these "chapters" being 10,000 marines (so the Ultramarines Legion consists of a massive quarter of a million marines).
Each "chapter" is then divided into 10 "companies" with each "company" being 1,000 marines.

Obviously the "company" here is a Chapter and the "chapter" of 10,000 is some other name altogether. He should have used the term cohort or similar to describe this larger group. I think it was an oversight/mistake of the author rather than a retcon as why would Guilliman use the term chapter in his codex if units of that size had a different meaning in his own legion?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:
The Word Bearers had time to collect geneseed from the fallen at Istvaan 3 and.....5 to use in their ritual at Calth.
Should have taken some time, to collect it all after a fight where Legions had to assemble for and travel to and bring it to calth afterwards.

...

Cause the warp storms, were started by that ritual at Calth.

Looks like another screw-up in the timeline, the same as in Outcast Dead where Magnus appears in the throne room (the dates around that were confusing).

The lexicanum article on 'Battle for the Abyss' says that the book is set after Istvaan V but before Calth which fits in with the timeline of 'Know no Fear'.
Perhaps the ritual on Calth was to make the warp storms really bad, as in Age of Strife bad, while smaller warp storms earlier were created to block astropathic communication mainly.

I do not believe that the official time line is as fleshed out as the Black Library authors would like us believe, there are too many contradictions appearing in the books for that to be the case.

1hadhq wrote:
The Word Bearers had time to collect geneseed from the fallen at Istvaan 3 and.....5 to use in their ritual at Calth.

I hadn't thought on that, you're sure it's Geneseed from both and not just 3? I will have to have a look back on that. 3 could be explained at a push, but both?

1hadhq wrote:Maybe we are missing the small bit where Gulliman isn't sure if Lorgar was at Calth in person.

I don't think Lorgar was at Calth. He knew his fate if he faced Guilliman. I am pretty sure that it was some form of Psychic projection, like with Magnus in Aurelian. It's made such a big issue of, how clear it is and how much it's like he is in the room with Guilliman.

Not sure how it explains how it turned into a big gribbly thing, but maybe the projection was enough to cause a tear in realspace.

1hadhq wrote:This could be the only explanation saving it partially, the WB spreading their forces and still keeping them in contact with help from their new "masters". Something like using the warp as we see at end from Erebus, who just steps in...
Would solve the second issue how they got to Calth before the events at Istvaan were known as a failure. But the primary problem stays.
To recall and assemble 7 Legions going unnoticed by Gulliman and the XIII Legio.

Cause the warp storms, were started by that ritual at Calth.

There were warp storms raging throughout the Imperium, that much is apparent. The ones started on Calth are more to enhance the damage done by the Word Bearers I guess.

The Seven Legions aren't all assembled at once. From what I can make out in Fulgrim.

Fulgrim contacts Ferrus, tells him about Horus betrayal and flees - This is during or just before Istvaan 3
Ferrus is angry but Warp storms prevent him from traveling to or contacting Terra - there is chatter of the Imperium at War with itself.
Dorn finally contacts Ferrus advising of whats gone down and that he has 7 Legions, including the Iron Hands, the crush Horus.
Corax, Vulkan and Ferrus meet and launch their attack on Istvaan.
The 4 remaining Legions arrive at Istvaan and the full betrayal is revealed.

At the end of False Gods Horus mentions the mustering at Calth happening after the fall of the Auretian Technocracy and that he has a plan for the loyalist forces at Istvaan..

So joining 3 Legions together isn't going to take as long as waiting for 6 but still. The issue here as well is that their is evidence that the Imperium is already at war from Chatter over the Astropathic Choir. So you could say that the message to Guillman has been stopped or delayed at least, but then you have all the other messages pinging around.

1hadhq wrote:Leaves the option:
- the author planned the UM as being totally surprised by the change of loyalities and missed the date where the treachery was no longer a secret. If he just kept it to horus and 4 followers , the WB wouldn't be an obvious traitor to Gulliman as they were part of the expeditionary force sent. OtoH why should the XIII care for a few greenskins when a brother has turned?
- the author shouldn't have put Lorgars boasting about the treachery at istvaan and the sacrifice of geneseed in. Thus Calth could be before / at the same time as Istvaan.

Or should have just made sure that it is apparent when it takes place. If the treachery happens as Istvaan V is going beginning, that would explain how no one suspects the Word Bearers at that time as they would still deemed to be loyal.

If it happened before 3, how did they have the Geneseed.
If it happened between 3 and 5, Geneseed once again.
If it happened after V, how was it kept so quiet.

cadbren wrote:
I do not believe that the official time line is as fleshed out as the Black Library authors would like us believe, there are too many contradictions appearing in the books for that to be the case.

I think the problem is as well, it's hard to get a sense of how long things take to happen in a book. Some things seem to be written well and you get a sense of duration and others just seem to happen.

It was definitely after V. They mention geneseed from chapters that were only at V.

The timing with Battle For The Abyss is dubious. Either Calth should have made the Ultramarines trigger happy for when the Abyss showed up, or the Abyss and the other ship should have made the Ultras less trusting at Calth. Only way it works is if both books occur at the same time.

Pilau Rice wrote:I don't think Lorgar was at Calth. He knew his fate if he faced Guilliman. I am pretty sure that it was some form of Psychic projection, like with Magnus in Aurelian. It's made such a big issue of, how clear it is and how much it's like he is in the room with Guilliman.

A tangent on this. I definitely agree Lorgar wasn't there. But I find the events of Aurelian to be pretty cool, and my take on it is a little different than most's (afaik).





On a different strain, the BftA plot hole still exists, because Kor Phaeron announces to the Word Bearers at the end that the Ultramarines have been alerted and will be waiting for them. This is not mentioned at all in KNF.

Sorry, needed to add spoiler tags.

Nothing much to say about Deliverance lost, other than I have no idea how the raven guard couldn't detect the infiltrators, and how one of the infiltrators has become the persona of a sen and yet doesn't have access to the gene-tech until the very end, where he ultimately failed at recovering it.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:



On a different strain, the BftA plot hole still exists, because Kor Phaeron announces to the Word Bearers at the end that the Ultramarines have been alerted and will be waiting for them. This is not mentioned at all in KNF.

You meant this:



The Furious abyss was headed for Formaska / Macragge , right?



The furious abyss was sent to Macragge ? and the infidus imperator to Calth ? And the WB keeping contact across the warp to orchestrate their attack on the UM. The abyss was destroyed before it got a shot at macragge and the speech of kor phaeron may be just his assumption the UM would react to the failure of the abyss and no longer trust them. How far is Calth from Macragge ?



Another character that is at Calth but doesn't do much: Tylos Rubio.
The Ultramarine who is recruted by Garro at Calth.
Wait. Garro had time to return to Terra, wait for an audience, get a new mission, move to Calth, and the news of Horus betrayal are still unknown to Roboute Gulliman?

daveNYC wrote:It was definitely after V. They mention geneseed from chapters that were only at V.

The timing with Battle For The Abyss is dubious. Either Calth should have made the Ultramarines trigger happy for when the Abyss showed up, or the Abyss and the other ship should have made the Ultras less trusting at Calth. Only way it works is if both books occur at the same time.

Reading the book again and flicking through some others it has to be after as there were two players definitely at both Istvann V and Calth. Erebus and Kor Phaeron as seen in The First Heretic

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
On a different strain, the BftA plot hole still exists, because Kor Phaeron announces to the Word Bearers at the end that the Ultramarines have been alerted and will be waiting for them. This is not mentioned at all in KNF.

1hadhq wrote:

Spoiler:

'Zadkiel has failed' says Kor Phaeron.' Soon the fleets presence will be revealed and Calth will be waiting for us. It is time. This will not be the massacre of which we have spoken.This will be a fight to the end, and Calth will not give up its victory easily.
...'

Spoiler:

The furious abyss had been forced out of position during the battle with the wrathful. Formaska glowered well to its starboard side, Macragge scarcely less ominuos well below it.
.....
Slowly, the vessels were moving into defensive positions. Without knowledge of the word bearers intentions or their defection from the Imperium, though, the Macragge fleet was cautious and had yet to engage.

I found these as well. It's starting to fall apart a bit now isn't it.

I can guess that at this point the Ultras were still not aware that the Word Bearers were traitors, but for an unknown ship to break warp all shot up and them not to be a bit suspicious and get battle ready, I don't think so.

1hadhq wrote:And the WB keeping contact across the warp to orchestrate their attack on the UM. The abyss was destroyed before it got a shot at macragge and the speech of kor phaeron may be just his assumption the UM would react to the failure of the abyss and no longer trust them. How far is Calth from Macragge ?

More importantly how far is Istvann from Calth?

1hadhq wrote:
Another character that is at Calth but doesn't do much: Tylos Rubio.
The Ultramarine who is recruted by Garro at Calth.

They can't put every character in

1hadhq wrote:Wait. Garro had time to return to Terra, wait for an audience, get a new mission, move to Calth, and the news of Horus betrayal are still unknown to Roboute Gulliman?

The battle was already underway, but yeah, it must have been a hell of a trip. If the warp storms were so bad as to disrupt communications how did Garro even get there?

There are a couple of more points that will require quotes one concerning the Ultramarine fleet being split, that I think I read in BftA and one concerning a message warning the Ultramarins, it's from that Word Bearer who turns into



I wonder if these timeline errors have anything to do with the colours on the sides of the books, different versions of events maybe?

I was told the different colours referred to different story arcs, then again I've been told by the same people that GW paints are the best ones to use and other paint is rubbish.

Lorgar was not at Calth, he was/is elsewhere with Angron and the World Eaters.

There's a specific bit in "Butcher's nails" when the WB announce that the attack on Calth will just have started and that Ultramarines are dying.

reds8n wrote:
There's a specific bit in "Butcher's nails" when the WB announce that the attack on Calth will just have started and that Ultramarines are dying.

You're just showing off now Red.

Not at all.

.. showing off would be going on about what Lucius and Co. discover in " the Mirror crack'd" .


.. or the revelations about the Alpha legion !

reds8n wrote: Not at all.

.. showing off would be going on about what Lucius and Co. discover in " the Mirror crack'd" .


.. or the revelations about the Alpha legion !

LOOK, LOOK, I HAVE BUTCHERS NAILS AND I'VE LISTENED TO IT

Heard about the Mirror Crack'd and sounds very interesting, nothing about the Alphas though.

Back on topic, much of BftA seems to be a bit redundant now, the whole Supplicants being used to mask the fleet's approach doesn't even appear to have been taking into consideration as it's now an expected meeting at Calth between the Word Bearers and Ultras.

I also wonder, what's Sol Tagron doing at this point, he's supposed to be in high anchor over Terra.

I enjoyed Deliverance Lost until the very end. The end of the book seemed very rushed and there were several loose ends.

But reading some of the initial comments in this thread, looking back now, the whole premise is just bad. Uber-space-marines in 80 hours? Yeah, that was a bit crazy. The maze thing was confusing. You could not draw a picture of it in your head at all.

Now that I'm looking back on it, it was actually a pretty bad story. I think it's sad that actually, the Alpha Legion seem to have the better story and characters in the Raven Guard book.

One thing did confuse me however:

SickSix wrote:

Spoiler:

Why did the emissary from the Cabal say that giving Horus the gene-tech would push the scales unfavorably to the side of the Primordial Annhilator?? I thought the whole mission of the Cabal was to have Horus win? This part made absolutely no sense to me.

You have raised a good point and one that I actually missed. It doesn't make sense to me at the minute and is going to require an investigation and ... sigh ... revisiting the book itself.

Thanks SickSix

In KNOW NO FEAR, how in the world has the return to canon of:



not been discussed yet?!?

Alpharius wrote:In KNOW NO FEAR, how in the world has the return to canon of:

Spoiler:

Ollanius Pius

not been discussed yet?!?

It was, weeks ago when this topic first came up. Also in that thread was the impossible timeline of the book.

Having not finished the book a couple of weeks ago, I avoided any such threads like the plague that they are!

Still, I cannot believe that is still not being discussed!

Alpharius wrote:Having not finished the book a couple of weeks ago, I avoided any such threads like the plague that they are!

Still, I cannot believe that is still not being discussed!

I just finished the book. It is about 3am lol. So I just read your spoiler but it didn't ring a bell until I put the name in lexicanum.

This should be interesting.

**edit**
Is it also wierd that my favorite character, or the one I had most empathy for was the one with the least face time(literally lol)?

Dredged this up because I refused to touch this thread until I had got ahold of Know No Fear.

Having just finished it, I can say that I really enjoyed it. I was a little nervous going in, because, while I love Eisenhorn, and the Gaunt series, Abnett doing space marines usually frustrates me. Brotherhood of the Snake, I barely remember. Prospero Burns was better, but still... I was disappointed.

b1soul wrote:

cincydooley wrote:With that being said, I completely understand people that didnt like it, especially if they went in looking for a Space Wolves slaughterfest.

I disliked Prospero Burns, but NOT for the reason stated above
I find it annoying and frankly quite belittling when someone implies that I probably didn't like a certain book because I was looking for bolter p0rn

That said, your reviews are well written and well thought out

This. I didn't like Prospero Burns because, in regards to HH novels, I want to know about the important characters. I want to see Primarchs, and what their personalities are like. I want to know what the legions were originally like. I'm never thrilled when one (especially one that looks to cover a very relevant event), meanders off on a side story with only a few, nodal touchstones to the "big show".

Know No Fear, however, did a great job. Rowboat was pretty well done, as was Lorgar's appearance, and I enjoyed the frequent mention of personality traits of the other Primarchs as well.

I still want a Vulkan book though :(

I still want a Vulkan book though :(

It's coming

One thing I want to know is how did Erebus get his mitts on Tariks Geneseed when Tarik is down a hole with Loken?