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Pilau Rice wrote:One thing I want to know is how did Erebus get his mitts on Tariks Geneseed when Tarik is down a hole with Loken?

Chalk it up to the impossible timeline of the whole book. Nothing in it corresponds to already established timeline of events in the HH series.


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SickSix wrote:
I just finished the book. It is about 3am lol. So I just read your spoiler but it didn't ring a bell until I put the name in lexicanum.

Spoiler:

I don't remember where or when I first heard of this mythical guardsman that was there when Horus and the Big E fought. Where did this character first pop up?

He was there in the first telling of these events.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:One thing I want to know is how did Erebus get his mitts on Tariks Geneseed when Tarik is down a hole with Loken?

Chalk it up to the impossible timeline of the whole book. Nothing in it corresponds to already established timeline of events in the HH series.

Yeah, this is starting to get a bit annoying about the series

I didn't really get the sense of any timeline errors in the book, unlike Outcast Dead.

As far as I was concerned, Calth was happening at pretty much the same time as Istvaan 5.

Lorgar was nowhere near Calth, however he was using some demonic / warp-ey magicky stuff to make people think he was - eg the 'hard light' style hologram... that was actually a demon.

Also, it's pretty clear that a whole lot of Lorgar's boasts about the success of Istvaan are outright lies. Ferrus is probably dead at that point, sure... But Corax is fighting away and noone knows what's happened to Vulkan.

The Word Bearers do it time and time again in the novel to get under the ultramarines skins, usually by claiming Gulliman died horribly.

What I really loved was that the book seemed to reference half of the 40k books that were ever written.

From Horus Rising, to Legion, to The Chapters Due, to Oath of Moment, ,to Brotherhood of The Snake to hints of even The Inquisition War with the 'perpetuals.'

Compel wrote:
As far as I was concerned, Calth was happening at pretty much the same time as Istvaan 5.

And here lies the issue, Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Lorgi are all at Istvaan 5. Erebus uses the Geneseed of victims from Istvaan and Istvaan 5 to summon the Daemons on Calth.

Istvaan however, lasted several weeks... Think of the time that Corax was running and hiding for, in Ravens Flight.

And considering they're having a pretty easy time of it all warp travel wise compared to the rest. I don't see an issue with Kor Phaeron / Erebus being there for the opening massacre, then leaving before the news of III and V, which they've been actively sabotaging, reaches Calth and the UMs. And that's without considering that Erebus did the whole warp sidestep thing he's was doing in the book.

Dorn couldn't even get much news from Istvaan and he was actively trying to...

I just didn't get a sense there was an issue with this at all, unlike The Outcast Dead which felt badly wrong.

And your point? In that case that's plenty of time for Guilliman to find out what is happening. You have to consider that Dorn was aware of what was happening on Istvann 3 due to Garro, then contacting 7 Legions and getting 3 of them together to launch an assault and then the Word Bearers getting to Calth.

According to Fulgrim, Ferrus has problems with contacting Terra due to the trouble in the warp, but reports that rebellion had broken out across the whole of the Imperium was rife. For Guilliman to not know anything whatsoever seems ridiculous.

In my opinion it's an error, no where near as bad as Outcast Dead, but still an error.

Why would Guilliam know what's going on ? We Dorn can't get in contact with him -- he/his legion is one of, if not the first person he tries to contact once he knows/believes what is going on.

The Calth assembly ordered prior to the Isstvaan events, and we know that the rebels were quite capable of preventing messages and travel -- see the AL and the WS for example.

IIRC Garro is the first person from outside the Ultramar system to arrive once events have kicked off and he gets there only due to Malcador's pull and influence and access to cutting edge/better than normal equipment.

And even he arrives after the attack has started.

and Loken ain't in any hole !

reds8n wrote: Why would Guilliam know what's going on ? We Dorn can't get in contact with him -- he/his legion is one of, if not the first person he tries to contact once he knows/believes what is going on.

The whole of the Imperium is at war according to Ferrus in Fulgrim, planets are in rebellion and it's being assailed by Alien races looking for an easy kill. There is warp communications firing all over the place. For someone who relies so heavily on information to not have any information or be aware of any of what is going on seems silly to me. Know no Fear has pretty much Battle of the Abyss redundant, the whole using the Supplicants to cover their approach aspect of it anyway.

reds8n wrote: The Calth assembly ordered prior to the Isstvaan events, and we know that the rebels were quite capable of preventing messages and travel -- see the AL and the WS for example.

Yup, but every single message that is going around at this time? WS, White Scars?

reds8n wrote:IIRC Garro is the first person from outside the Ultramar system to arrive once events have kicked off and he gets there only due to Malcador's pull and influence and access to cutting edge/better than normal equipment.

And even he arrives after the attack has started.

I would expect him too, after he's traveled all the way from Luna.

reds8n wrote:and Loken ain't in any hole !

He was with the body of Tarik in the ruin of the Choral City, that's a kind of a hole. I wasn't being literal

Edits: Quotations

The whole of the Imperium is at war according to Ferrus in Fulgrim

No change there then.

, planets are in rebellion and it's being assailed by Alien races looking for an easy kill. There is warp communications firing all over the place. For someone who relies so heavily on information to not have any information or be aware of any of what is going on seems silly to me. Know no Fear has pretty much Battle of the Abyss redundant, the whole using the Supplicants to cover their approach aspect of it anyway.

And if you recall it's to fight such an alien invasion -- an ork one IIRC -- that the Ultramarines are being mustered in the first place.

All the Legions are used to operating on their own and without regular contact with outside forces, they don't sit round wondering why The Emperor hasn't phoned for a while.

Yup, but every single message that is going around at this time? WS, White Scars?

They don't have to block every message -- for example the ones between the WB and the Ultramarines have been allowed to pass.

Whit Scars indeed -- The Primarchs reveals how they've been purposefully isolated through Xenos tech.

And we've already seen how the DA have been sidelined and prevented from interfering more.

reds8n wrote:
No change there then.

And if you recall it's to fight such an alien invasion -- an ork one IIRC -- that the Ultramarines are being mustered in the first place.

The difference being here is that they are declaring either for Horus or the Emperor.

And the Ork empire is an establised one IIRC, it's different from an invading force, but that's neither here nor there.

reds8n wrote:All the Legions are used to operating on their own and without regular contact with outside forces, they don't sit round wondering why The Emperor hasn't phoned for a while.

Who's saying they do? Messages are still sent out and received all the time though. I could imagine something as big as Horus going traitor you know, being one of those.

reds8n wrote: They don't have to block every message -- for example the ones between the WB and the Ultramarines have been allowed to pass.

And if their Choir was trying to make any form of communication they would probably pick up on what is happening, much as Ferrus' did.

reds8n wrote:Whit Scars indeed -- The Primarchs reveals how they've been purposefully isolated through Xenos tech.

Well, you got me on this one, we're not all as privileged or lucky as you red

reds8n wrote:And we've already seen how the DA have been sidelined and prevented from interfering more.

Been sent into the Eastern Fringe chasing the Night Lords or are we referring to something else?

KNF is a great read, it just seems a little to convenient I guess. If they would have stuck with the assault on Calth being a surprise attack I think I would have been happier.

daveNYC wrote:Know No Fear sounds good, but then again, you also called Prospero Burns 'sublime'. Heck, I dragged my way through Mechanicum, so Know No Fear is going to end up on the reading list.

I don't know if I would gush quite as much about it, but Know No Fear was indeed very good. And this is coming from someone who thought PB was middling at best.

Well, I guess it's ultimately a subjective thing. Although Abnett does write action very well (and certainly graphically!), I think he is at his best writing character arcs and narrative beyond bolter shells flying around killing stuff. Certainly, he writes intrigue and mystery very well; probably why Legion and the Eisenhorn series have been so popular, the stories themselves really give something for the writer to get their teeth into. With Prospero Burns as well, he had the opportunity to build something from the ground up (in this case, the entire concept behind the Space Wolves), and I think transformed them into one of the coolest concepts of the Heresy so far.

With Know No Fear, aside from the rather poor title, I almost felt like Abnett had his hand tied behind his back in terms of the content and a lot of it degenerated into 'and then x died'. Similar to the second part of Brotherhood of the Snake I found myself skim reading through entire sections. Although he had succeeded, in the same way as ADB, in making 'real' Space Marine characters (rather than the characterless drones which are impossible for the reader to connect and therefore sympathise with) there can be such a thing as too much action. I don't mean to be disrespectful when I say this, but in some ways it is almost like the 'Peal Harbour' of the Horus Heresy series - immense action scenes, and the 'countdown' idea (adding gravitas to the whole thing) was very well done. But ultimately, if all you are writing about is Ben Affleck driving around in a Willys jeep, his hat aslant on his head, then no matter your skills as a writer the material itself is the limiting factor. With Legion and Prospero Burns Abnett had much more of a blank slate to work with, and the books were that much more exciting as a result. We all know what the attack on Calth is about, and in that regard it was liking watching a replay of a football match. The start and stop points were already defined, and I think in terms of pure narrative it is probably one of the weakest books in the series.

But ultimately it is horses for courses I guess - it might just be that I've read so much BL that I have become jaded to anything that isn't breaking new ground, or shaking the applecart in some way, and unfortunately Know No Fear, as well written as it is, just leaves the world exactly as it found it.

"Coolest concept"? Deluded hypocrites are cool now?

I was just referring to the way that Abnett changed the Space Wolves from their conception in the William King books.

I suppose 'cool' in that it made them far more interesting and believable, and managed to add to the overriding narrative of the Heresy era universe - perhaps poor choice of words on my part.

Fair enough, the insight into Fenrisian culture did make them loathsome, as opposed to King's adolescent adventures which merely painted them as campy.

Deliverance Lost should be renamed Interest Lost.

Gav's book, while containing interesting tidbits, is a ham-handedly written and painful read.

For really the first time since starting the Heresy series I put the book down more than once in order to give my brain a break... returning to it only out of duty and a desire to not miss something important.

Corax's story had so much promise in my mind's eye... *sigh*