Horus Hersey Reviews - Deliverance Lost / Know No Fear

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**cincydooley**

Introductions for two reviews I just polished off. I will full text them below so as not to be uncouth, but please feel free to click through to the links as well if you enjoy them.

______________________________________

Well, it's been a while since I've reviewed a book, but here we go. Deliverance Lost by Gav Thorpe, the lastest (if you dont count No Know Fear) entry to the Horus Heresy saga. I have to say, I was left pretty cold by this one. I really wanted to like it, but there was plenty that prevented joy from happening. Here's the gist:

Deliverance Lost Review

Would love to get some commentary from those of you that have read it also. Am I simply off base and expecting too much, or did ya'll have the same sense of emptiness reading it I did?

________________________________________

So here's the review for No Know Fear. It's true that its a bit more gushy than I wanted it to be. It's true that I should probably just write Dan Abnett a Valentines Day card now, expressing my undying love for his writing. Whatever.

I read this one in a matter of two days. It would have been less, but I had to work and sleep. It was that compelling. I couldn't put it down.

Know No Fear - Dan Abnett Review

As I intimate in the review, I don't think it's quite as good as Prospero Burns, but damned if it isn't close. They're very different books, so it's hard to look at them comparatively. Suffice it to say I loved Know No Fear.

Please, comments & critiques & rambling thoughts welcome.

Cheers.

**cincydooley**

The Horus Heresy series is clearly the Black Library’s most valuable and most coveted IP within the whole of the Warhammer 40k mythos. The story is epic, so far spanning across nearly 20 novels, and as such, the plotting of it is closely guarded and plotted by a small stable of the best the Black Library has to offer: namely Dan Abbnett, Graham McNeill, James Swallow, and more recently Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Between the four author’s, we’ve been privy to some of the best writing the Black Library has ever offered in A Thousand Sons (McNeill), Nemesis (Swallow), The First Heretic (ADB), Prospero Burns (Abbnett), and The Outcast Dead (McNeill, again) over the past two years.

Not since Mike Lee’s Fallen Angels have we really seen a ‘forgettable’ HH novel. As such, the announcement of Gav Thorpe’s introduction into the HH fold made me understandably wary. He wasn’t part of the HH ‘brain trust,’ he’s better known for his xenos & elven writing, and his fumbling through the Space Hulk novella left me very cold. Despite that, the Raven’s Flight audiobook wasn’t awful, and his entry in the Age of Darkness short story collection was at least serviceable. Sadly, Gav’s inaugural full-length entry in the Horus Heresy series, Deliverance Lost, leaves a lot to be desired.

Deliverance Lost comes on the back of the Raven’s Flight audio drama and the short story “Face of Treachery” from Age of Darkness. While the aforementioned two stories aren’t required reading to dive into Deliverance, you’re left with more questions than you probably should be entering a stand alone novel if you haven’t read/listened to them, and I wholly recommend catching them before beginning Deliverance Lost.

Regardless, Deliverance Lost is the story of Corvus Corax and his Raven Guards attempt to rebuild their legion after their near annihilation at Isstvan. Fleeing from Isstvan, the Raven Guard set about to Terra to seek audience with the Emperor in an attempt to acquire the means to rebuild their legion. The Emperor begrudgingly acquiesces, which moves the plot forward to Corax’s restructuring and rebuilding of the Raven Guard via means of a neutered version of the Primarch Project.

This is all well and good, except that operatives of the Alpha Legion have infiltrated the Raven Guard, assuming the faces and names of fallen members of the XIX Legion in the aftermath of the Dropsite Massacre. This should seemingly set forth the path for a fantastic “Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy” type affair, with the Raven Guard attempting to rebuild their legion while using their knowledge of stealth to sniff out the Alpha Legion infiltrators. Sadly, it just doesn’t happen.

The Alpha Legion was introduced to us by Dan Abbnett in Legion, and I think that is the first problem Thorpe encounters in his portrayal of the most duplicitous Astartes Legion. Whereas Abbnett’s version of the Alpha Legion was cloaked in mystery, with purposeful ambiguity intertwined in the narrative and great breadth given to their secrecy, you simply don’t get the same feeling in Deliverance Lost.

The infiltration of the Raven Guard is actually set up quite well; Thorpe uses believable technology for the age (face grafting) and a little used piece of Astartes physiology, the Omophagea, to allow us to believe that the Alpha Legion would be able to supplant a Raven Guard in the ranks. I liked the set up; however, the farther the story progressed, the less believable it seemed. Thorpe’s Alpha Legionnaires are constantly making small mistakes that should reveal them to the Raven Guard (and towards the end of the book, in lieu of a successful red herring, we learn they actually do and nothing is done about it!) without consequence.

Further, Thrope’s use of the name “Alpharius” became increasingly grating. I understand the use of it is to create some ambiguity in the characters (we know that there is more than one Alpha operative in the midst of Deliverance); I simply would have preferred the use of pronouns like “he” to serve as those line blurring words. Further, it is alluded to that Corax has a fair amount of psychic ability, and he is unable to sniff out any duplicity. Simply put, a well conceived premise slow deteriorated until the end of the novel, a failed red herring, and a lot of ambivalence from this reader; by the last quarter of the novel, I was simply read to move on to Know No Fear.

Despite all that, I think there are some things that Thrope does succeed at. His characterization of Corax is actually really good. We certainly can see that Corax is one of the more thoughtful of the Primarch’s, and we learn a great deal about him throughout the narrative. I like this a lot. Sadly, some of the most interesting aspects are left as unfulfilled story lines. Corax has a clear affection for those that were part of the initial uprising of Lycea, but we only get to see bits and pieces of those stories come to fruition. One of his closest confidants, the human female Epheria, has clearly won his affections for a reason, but Thorpe doesn’t go into it.

We’re also told that Marcus Valerius, the Navy Commander whom received Corax’s psychic distress signal, will have an audience with the Primarch to determine how it was that they knew to come to his aide; this is another story line that is simply left unfinished. And unfinished is really the hallmark feeling this novel conveys. Thorpe actually has a lot of good ideas running around in the novel. Corax is a fairly well conveyed character. The kinship between commander’s Branne and Agapito is interesting and appealing, but like many of the other interesting and appealing aspects of the novel, is left…unfinished.

I wanted to like Deliverance Lost a lot. I wanted Gav Thorpe to atone for the awful Space Hulk novella and reassert himself as a capable writer of the Astartes and solidify his place as the 5th member of the Horus Heresy cabal. But he doesn’t.

Deliverance Lost is a middling novel of no real consequence, and is easily the weakest entry to the series since Battle of the Abyss. My Horus Heresy reviews typically end with scores of 8 or above, high praise, and phrases like, “you really must read this novel.” However, like the Raven Guard, this one is just fine remaining in the shadows.

A disappointing 5,5 of 10; for Horus Heresy or Raven Guard completionists only.

Editors Note: Score changed from a 4/10 to a 5.5 of ten. After rethinking the problems I had with the novel, then deciding that I actually did like the Raven Guard lore sprinkled in, I believe a 5.5-6.0 is a more fair assessment of the novel. It still has its shortcomings, and the unresolved plot lines are maddening, but I think Deliverance Lost is a move in the right direction for Mr. Thorpe’s Astartes fiction.

**cincydooley**

After reading Deliverance Lost, Gav Thorpe’s first entry to the Horus Heresy published by the Black Library, I felt that perhaps I was a bit harsh in my review of Gav’s work. It was, after all, his first at bat and it wasn’t terrible. The biggest problem was that it was never a book that I really wanted to read. Sure, I was interested in Corax. I really like the Raven Guard. But the story was a bit muddled in places, the pacing uneven at times, and it contained more unresolved story lines (which I’m not convinced will be finished in other places) than I could deal with. I often picked up Deliverance Lost begrudgingly. Simply put, Dan Abnett’s Know No Fear could not have been more different.

Know No Fear is Abnett’s latest entry to the Horus Heresy, coming in with high expectations after his sublime Prospero Burns. Stemming directly from the aftermath of Dembski-Bowden’s The First Heretic and chronologically following the Dropsite Massacre at Istvaan, Know No Fear recounts the Battle of Calth, the devastating battle between the two largest Legio Astartes, the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers.

With still-wounded pride from their censure by Guilliman at Monarchia and their newfound ‘truth’ derived from the warp, the Word Bearers are tasked by the Warmaster Horus to eradicate the Ultramarines at Calth, one of the five great worlds of Ultramar. Through treachery and duplicitous means, the Legions of Lorgar are able to launch a devastating sneak attack against the Ultramarines, crippling their fleet and setting in motion an ‘extinction-level’ event that will test the mettle of the Warriors of Ultramar.

The plot only takes place over the matter of a few days, as the Word Bearers’ attack is devastating and unexpected, and Abnett made the choice to write the narrative as “a chronological account extracted and compiled from Ultima Operational Record[s],” or more specifically, a battle report; the entire narrative is in the present tense. This is a really ballsy move, one that had me completely disarmed at first, but it ends up being absolute correct decision, and one that would certainly have failed if tasked to a lesser writer. The pacing of Know No Fear is breakneck and wholly engrossing. In addition to the ‘battle report’ style which helps to drive the narrative, Abnett also ‘sections’ out the novel, cutting away from one scene to the next with very short paragraphs. The reader is never in one location for too long, and occasionally he sprinkles in these brilliant little vignettes regarding characters that only appear in a single paragraph. They’re simple, elegant touches that really expand the scope of the story and add a great deal of breadth to what is a much simpler story than Prospero Burns.

And though it is simpler, as Know No Fear is essentially an action movie, it is a Soderburgh and not aMichaelBay (though some of the devastation wrought upon Calth is certainly from aMichaelBay wet dream). Though not as intricately researched and meticulous as the aforementioned Space Wolves opus, Abnett’s work here is layered and detailed, with tons of clever nods to the 40k universe. Additionally, the characterization of his protagonists is engrossing and full of depth.

We see a lot of Guilliman in Know No Fear, but he is much more than the unflinching strategist we’d expect from the Ultramarines progenitor. Though he is clearly a measured pragmatist, it’s the small asides he shares with his commanders that really illuminate his character; the dry sense of humor he displays with them is an absolute joy to read.

If the Ultramarines were previously painted as unfeeling martial pragmatists, Know No Fear will change that a bit. Remus Ventanus, effectively the protagonist (though the Dramatis Personae for Know No Fear is five pages, so plenty of characters get their share of face time), is the epitome of what we’ve come to know of the Ultramarines. He is noble. He is intelligent. But more, he’s compassionate. He’s a full, rounded character, nothing less than what we’d expect from Abnett. Further, his depiction of Lorgar, though he has very little to do in the novel, is brilliant. Gone is the sniveling, unsure whelp from The First Heretic. Lorgar is menacing and maniacal, and his interactions with Guilliman are downright unnerving. It was perfect.

And finally, Abnett continues to be a master of his craft when it comes to the depictions of humans in the context of the Horus Heresy. There aren’t many in Know No Fear, but those few that are highlighted are really well done. The Ushmetar Kaul, led by the zealot Criol Fowst, is haunting. As our first depiction of the massive cults employed by the Word Bearers, the ‘Brotherhood of the Knife’ is an excellent entry point. Oll Persson, a simple inhabitant of Calth, is interesting and fleshed out and, despite the fact that he receives only a small fraction of the story, is far more than he initially seems. And Magos Meer Edv Tawren, the server that acts as a focal point for the Ultramarines retribution, is a surprisingly deep character that is granted what may be my favorite part of Know No Fear: a simple, tender scene between her and Vanatus that added more depth to both characters than any two lines of text should.

Dan Abnett is at the top of his game with Know No Fear. It is a fast-paced, page-turning epic that could easily be turned into a blockbuster movie. From an opening scene as disturbingly gripping as the beach scene in Saving Private Ryan, to heroic interventions that literally had me exclaiming “Yes!” out loud, Know No Fear is a compelling read. Though Prospero Burns may remain my favorite entry in the Horus Heresy saga, Know No Fear is the one I’ll find myself coming back to over and over again.

9.5/10 Masterful; A Must Read.

**daveNYC**

Know No Fear sounds good, but then again, you also called Prospero Burns 'sublime'. Heck, I dragged my way through Mechanicum, so Know No Fear is going to end up on the reading list.

**cincydooley**

I love Prospero. I think the depth of the story was wonderful. With that being said, I completely understand people that didnt like it, especially if they went in looking for a Space Wolves slaughterfest. Prospero is a meaty book, to be sure.

With that in mind, I really think anyone that enjoys the Horus Heresy, or for that matter great action writing, will love Know No Fear. I only rank it below Prospero because it is less cerebral, but that doesn't make KNF any less good. It also has some serious, mind bending, Holy Crap moments in there too.

**Laodamia**

I've just read your review for Deliverance lost. And I must say it really echoes my own after-thoughts on this novella.

In my opinion, this novella wasn't bad. It was reasonably interesting and organised. However, it wasn't nearly good enough for a HH novel, especially a novel dealing with such a massive issue about the 40K lore.
When I first heard about Deliverance Lost, I was really exited. I really wanted to read more about Corax and his failed gene-tampering, the monsters he involuntarily created or simply the innate workings of Primarch DNA. And all those hopes and expectations were left unfulfilled, or poorly satisfied by Thorpe's almost clumsy writing.

I expected a tragic story about Corax's failure to rebuild his legion and the loss of the primarch DNA, with an epic and unexpected ending. And I am still waiting for this tragic story... Gav Thorpe's novel is simply not "refined" (in lack of a better word) enough to be called "epic" or "tragic".

As such, I kind of feel like a great mystery and secret of the HH has just been spoiled and ruined by a poorly written novella. I felt disappointed by Gav Thorpe and Deliverance Lost.

**daveNYC**

From Prospero Burns I wanted more information about the Wolves than what one could infer from their codex. Didn't really get that, and got no more insight into Russ (Ferus is dead and we almost know more about him than Russ), personality wise).

From Deliverance Lost, I wanted to see Corax's character arc as he starts off focusing on rebuilding his legion, eventually going over the edge and obsessing over it to the point where he takes excessive risks that eventually end up burning him. What I got was was Corax going kinda-sorta near that edge, but immediately being cautioned by one of his peeps, at which point he would just back off and things would continue to be fine.

Not to mention that 'Alpha Legion did it.' is plain old lazy writing.

**CalgarsPimpHand**

daveNYC wrote:Not to mention that 'Alpha Legion did it.' is plain old lazy writing.

Man do I ever agree. I haven't read it, but I told my friend he may as well summarize for me, because the negative reviews have turned me off to it. When he got to the part about

Spoiler:

I pretty much groaned out loud. That ruins the whole point of Corax's story! He's a tragic hero! In desperation over the loss of his sons, he tries to harness forces he cannot control! Shame over his personal failure is what drives him into the Eye! Not, "Corax roxxors so hard but surprise! Alpha Legion suxxors!".

At this point I just pretend that well over half of this series was never even written.

**cincydooley**

daveNYC wrote:From Prospero Burns I wanted more information about the Wolves than what one could infer from their codex. Didn't really get that, and got no more insight into Russ (Ferus is dead and we almost know more about him than Russ), personality wise).

You don't think Prospero offered all of that, and more? I sort of did....

@Calgar - Oh, then you'll just love the notion that not only did Corax do it faster, his Astartes also whooped up on the ones the Emperor created

. Yeah, that's right. I think saying "forgetting about half of them" is pretty harsh though. By my personal estimation, the forgettable books are: both Dark Angels books, Battle for the Abyss, and Deliverance Lost. I can see why Mechanicum and perhaps even Outcast Dead would be meh for some folks, but I actually though both were quite good. I SUPPOSE I could see the same for Nemesis, if you're simply not interested in the assassin clades (how can you not be?!?), but beyond that, every other book, IMO, has been really great, particularly the most recent five (minus Deliverance).

Good stuff regardless.

**Laodamia**

cincydooley wrote:@Calgar - Oh, then you'll just love the notion that not only did Corax do it faster, his Astartes also whooped up on the ones the Emperor created . Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, this thing also irked me...

I mean, turning a teenage into a full-grown up marine able to whoop the ass of a seasoned SM veteran in less than three days (I think it took them 80 hours or so to produce a "uber-marine" right?)...

My only reaction was:

Also what did you think about the secret labyrinth thing where Corax was supposed to fetch the primarch gene-seed? This also irked me a lot. I thought it was confusing and unrealistic.

**daveNYC**

cincydooley wrote:
daveNYC wrote:From Prospero Burns I wanted more information about the Wolves than what one could infer from their codex. Didn't really get that, and got no more insight into Russ (Ferus is dead and we almost know more about him than Russ), personality wise).

You don't think Prospero offered all of that, and more? I sort of did....

@Calgar - Oh, then you'll just love the notion that not only did Corax do it faster, his Astartes also whooped up on the ones the Emperor created . Yeah, that's right. I think saying "forgetting about half of them" is pretty harsh though. By my personal estimation, the forgettable books are: both Dark Angels books, Battle for the Abyss, and Deliverance Lost. I can see why Mechanicum and perhaps even Outcast Dead would be meh for some folks, but I actually though both were quite good. I SUPPOSE I could see the same for Nemesis, if you're simply not interested in the assassin clades (how can you not be?!?), but beyond that, every other book, IMO, has been really great, particularly the most recent five (minus Deliverance).

Good stuff regardless.

Well, you got some more info, but nothing particularly interesting. Like the fact that the space vikings also use space viking bards wasn't exactly earth shattering. That said, the writing was good, and there were a few bits that were most extremely excellent, specifically the bit where skald dude is telling the story to the rune priest. Those five or so pages made the book worth getting.

Now back to ragging on Deliverance Lost though: I think there's books that go down the memory hole because they're uninteresting, poorly written, or totally side stories that don't progress the main storyline. Mechanicum, the DA books, Nemesis, Abyss, all fall into that category. (YMMV) The other reason that some books are ignored is because they either ruin a good story (Deliverance Lost) or bork up the established events in other books so badly that there's no way to reconcile things (Outcast Dead).

**Laodamia**

daveNYC wrote:
Now back to ragging on Deliverance Lost though: I think there's books that go down the memory hole because they're uninteresting, poorly written, or totally side stories that don't progress the main storyline. Mechanicum, the DA books, Nemesis, Abyss, all fall into that category. (YMMV) The other reason that some books are ignored is because they either ruin a good story (Deliverance Lost) or bork up the established events in other books so badly that there's no way to reconcile things (Outcast Dead).

Spot on IMO.

**DarknessEternal**

cincydooley wrote:
@Calgar - Oh, then you'll just love the notion that not only did Corax do it faster, his Astartes also whooped up on the ones the Emperor created . Yeah, that's right. I think saying "forgetting about half of them" is pretty harsh though. By my personal estimation, the forgettable books are: both Dark Angels books, Battle for the Abyss, and Deliverance Lost. I can see why Mechanicum and perhaps even Outcast Dead would be meh for some folks, but I actually though both were quite good. I SUPPOSE I could see the same for Nemesis, if you're simply not interested in the assassin clades (how can you not be?!?), but beyond that, every other book, IMO, has been really great, particularly the most recent five (minus Deliverance).

Fulgrim was ten million pages of "and then some generic Marines killed some more guys."

**cincydooley**

daveNYC wrote:

Now back to ragging on Deliverance Lost though: I think there's books that go down the memory hole because they're uninteresting, poorly written, or totally side stories that don't progress the main storyline. Mechanicum, the DA books, Nemesis, Abyss, all fall into that category. (YMMV) The other reason that some books are ignored is because they either ruin a good story (Deliverance Lost) or bork up the established events in other books so badly that there's no way to reconcile things (Outcast Dead).

Yeah, I actually think you and I are pretty much on the same page. Like I said, I can wholly understand why Mechanicum and Outcast, and even Nemesis may not float everyone's boat. Bear in mind one of my favorite Black Library books is Titanicus though

. I try not to think TOO hard about the timelining of a lot of the stories; because they didn't design the HH series as a chronological one (in regards that one book follows another book follows another book) I actually think they do a really good job of keeping things/events aligned. I think it's only going to get better now that they have the "Brain Trust" organizing everything. I think Magnus' timeline in this whole thing is a problem in general. His shattering of the psychic defenses on Terra seem to be the biggest problem they have with the timelining.

@Darkness -- Man... I think Fulgrim is by far the best depiction of a Primarch that we have right now, save Horus. Between the Fulgrim and Manus, we get to see two really well fleshed out Primarchs, and who doesn't love that? And speaking of fleshed out.... space marine opera house orgy ;D

**b1soul**

cincydooley wrote:With that being said, I completely understand people that didnt like it, especially if they went in looking for a Space Wolves slaughterfest.

I disliked Prospero Burns, but NOT for the reason stated above
I find it annoying and frankly quite belittling when someone implies that I probably didn't like a certain book because I was looking for bolter p0rn

That said, your reviews are well written and well thought out

**cincydooley**

b1soul wrote:
cincydooley wrote:With that being said, I completely understand people that didnt like it, especially if they went in looking for a Space Wolves slaughterfest.

I disliked Prospero Burns, but NOT for the reason stated above
I find it annoying and frankly quite belittling when someone implies that I probably didn't like a certain book because I was looking for bolter p0rn

That said, your reviews are well written and well thought out

I honestly didn't mean any condescension by it; probably didn't state it that well.

I can understand why people wouldn't like both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. They're both very slow moving, meticulous narratives that simply don't have as much 'action' as I think people would have liked. I mean, In Prospero Burns the razing of Tizca is really really quick and not nearly as detailed as it could have been. I know a lot of folks I talked to that didn't like the novel had a problem with that. Prospero did also change the Space Wolves fluff a bit; I really liked it. I liked that they really became the noble savage in the book. I think the small amount of face time Russ gets (goodness do I want to see more of him) is of great insight into his character and intelligence. You get the impression in Know No Fear that, if Guilliman thinks he has an equal amongst his brother primarchs, that Russ may be it.

Anyways, thanks for the compliment, and again, I really meant no affront by the comment.

Too bad we have to wait so long for the next Heresy book. On to some bolter-porn Space Marine battles

**daveNYC**

cincydooley wrote:You get the impression in Know No Fear that, if Guilliman thinks he has an equal amongst his brother primarchs, that Russ may be it.

Really? Gonna have to get the book and read it, but I'd almost say that among the Primarchs, Russ is a bit of an outlier. Pretty much every other Primarch attempted to build or create something when they crashed on their planets. A lot of them took over the world, or built empires, defended the planet against xenos or mutants, led a revolution. More or less did something that was kind of Emperor-lite, in that they tried to make the world a better place. Even Batman chipped in.
Russ, OTOH, lived with wolves, was adopted by the king, then chipped in booting head until the king died and he got the throne. His activity during the crusade is also different from that of his brothers, in that a good chunk of them try and 'do something' with the worlds they conquer. Statues to the Emperor, good infrastructure, libraries, what have you. Not all of them do so, but I'd say that most of them try to create in addition to just destroying things. That's not really what the Wolves get up to though. So it's kind of strange that Guilliman, the most Emperory of all the Primarchs, would feel such kinship with Russ.

**cincydooley**

I don't know that it's a kinship (he seems to have that with, sadly, manus). They discuss the 4 legions Guilloman thinks, when teamed with the ultras, would be indefeatable. They are the imperial fists, the iron hands, the blood angels, and the wolves. And his legionaries seem to hold Russ in very high esteem as well.

**Mr. Balloon Hands**

So a am about half way through Know no Fear. Guilliman and Logar is such an epic match up. There is the sub plot of how each write numerous volumes of what they believe in the life of war. I thought that was pretty wild. how they have such devotion and respect from their legions. I am a huge fan of Chaos cause I kinda feel they are always the underdog in a lot books. its almost sad they dont get some major props in these books. I am kind of worried that Word Barriers are going to have the tables turned on them when clearly there should be no possible way for an epic comeback. Now not that I dislike loyalist legions. I really enjoy some. Now Istavaans (sp?) was great, but even there a lot of it was Chaos v. Chaos. Thousand Sons got punked hard. Deliverance Lost made me like the Raven Guard a lot more. Books like Aurelian i thought was absolutely awesome showing how Chaos can be so powerful.

Got off topic there. I guess I am just worried about the direction Know No Fear is headed in respect to who will have a more important and meaningful victory. Either way I think its one of the better reads. It is soooo far past "lots of bolter porn" which i see being complained about here and there.

**Pilau Rice**

Have thoroughly enjoyed this thus far. Am liking the Ultramarines, Guilliman and the Word Bearers. I think Mr Abnett has done a cracking job with Know no Fear.

It's refreshing read and I think has given an injection of adrenaline into the series, which it needed honestly.

I am struggling though with something

Spoiler:

**Kanluwen**

Information isn't instantaneously transmitted in 40k. It requires the use of Psykers for that--either through Navigators on ships bearing news, or through Psykers contacting other Psykers.

There's massive Warp Storms going on at this point in time, and likely the message isn't getting through.

**Pilau Rice**

Kanluwen wrote:Information isn't instantaneously transmitted in 40k. It requires the use of Psykers for that--either through Navigators on ships bearing news, or through Psykers contacting other Psykers.

There's massive Warp Storms going on at this point in time, and likely the message isn't getting through.

Spoiler:

It will have to do.

**Kanluwen**

Well, you also have to think about it like this.

There's not really a reliable way to vet the source of a psychic transmission. If you were Roboute Guilleman, wouldn't the idea of "Could it have been one of Horus' pet psykers sending out misinformation?" cross your mind?

You have to bear in mind that the news from Istvaan V? There was none for quite awhile. Horus' trap was pretty unexpected, and even then it was unbelievable. The audio drama "Raven's Flight" did a good job showing this, and it was only the Eisenstein which escaped the trap and was able to warn the Imperium at large of Horus' treachery.

**Pilau Rice**

Kanluwen wrote:Well, you also have to think about it like this.

There's not really a reliable way to vet the source of a psychic transmission. If you were Roboute Guilleman, wouldn't the idea of "Could it have been one of Horus' pet psykers sending out misinformation?" cross your mind?

You have to bear in mind that the news from Istvaan V? There was none for quite awhile. Horus' trap was pretty unexpected, and even then it was unbelievable. The audio drama "Raven's Flight" did a good job showing this, and it was only the Eisenstein which escaped the trap and was able to warn the Imperium at large of Horus' treachery.

Psykers seem to be able to get a feel from a transmitted message, Ing Mae Sings reaction to the message than Horus sends in Galaxy in Flames seems to be an indication of that. But regardless, there wasn't any message sent to Guilliman bar the cryptic and confusing message from Horus about the mustering.

This notion doesn't seem to stop Russ though either, totally different characters granted. Any message at a time like that should be examined with scrutiny. But he's not even aware of anything that has happened about Horus. I could understand if it was before anything happening on Istvann, where the Imperium is none the wiser of Horus betrayal, or even during the first battle, but afterwards?

And yeah, you're right, there wasn't news from Istvaan 5 for quite awhile. But the gap between Eisenstein being stranded, picked up and taken back to Terra, then rousing of the counter force to stop Horus, then the traveling to Istvann, doesn't happen in a day.

**Kanluwen**

Pilau Rice wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Well, you also have to think about it like this.

There's not really a reliable way to vet the source of a psychic transmission. If you were Roboute Guilleman, wouldn't the idea of "Could it have been one of Horus' pet psykers sending out misinformation?" cross your mind?

You have to bear in mind that the news from Istvaan V? There was none for quite awhile. Horus' trap was pretty unexpected, and even then it was unbelievable. The audio drama "Raven's Flight" did a good job showing this, and it was only the Eisenstein which escaped the trap and was able to warn the Imperium at large of Horus' treachery.

Psykers seem to be able to get a feel from a transmitted message, Ing Mae Sings reaction to the message than Horus sends in Galaxy in Flames seems to be an indication of that. But regardless, there wasn't any message sent to Guilliman bar the cryptic and confusing message from Horus about the mustering.

Yeah, but what feel are you going to get from a psyker who's sending you a lie?

This notion doesn't seem to stop Russ though either, totally different characters granted.

To be fair...I think Russ should be discounted. He was told by Horus that Magnus did something terrible--even traitorous. That all happened before Istvaan V.

Any message at a time like that should be examined with scrutiny. But he's not even aware of anything that has happened about Horus. I could understand if it was before anything happening on Istvann, where the Imperium is none the wiser of Horus betrayal, or even during the first battle, but afterwards?
And yeah, you're right, there wasn't news from Istvaan 5 for quite awhile. But the gap between Eisenstein being stranded, picked up and taken back to Terra, then rousing of the counter force to stop Horus, then the traveling to Istvann, doesn't happen in a day.

Something to remember is that Lorgar and the others seemed to have a pretty good idea as to what each other were doing. Most likely...it was because Lorgar effectively summoned the Warp Storm that was cutting off all communication. The traitor's ships as well were able to navigate fairly easily.

**Pilau Rice**

Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, but what feel are you going to get from a psyker who's sending you a lie?

Maybe something along the lines of, their not telling the truth

Kanluwen wrote:
To be fair...I think Russ should be discounted. He was told by Horus that Magnus did something terrible--even traitorous. That all happened before Istvaan V.

My point isn't on Istvann here. You said why would Guilliman trust Horus, I guess you mean if he knew about the betrayal, which he clearly doesn't.

Russ had been warned beforehand, that Horus had turned traitor, by one of his own men and then Magnus sends a message saying the same thing. But he doesn't even contemplate that Horus could be a traitor. Put it down to his animosity with Magnus, but Guilliman isn't, well at least to me, that kind of character. Even when the Word Bearers are smashing face he looks for all the details before engaging.

Kanluwen wrote:
Something to remember is that Lorgar and the others seemed to have a pretty good idea as to what each other were doing. Most likely...it was because Lorgar effectively summoned the Warp Storm that was cutting off all communication. The traitor's ships as well were able to navigate fairly easily.

Of course they did, they were in on it, the Imperium knew what was going on too though as well, after they found out about, hence the whole, you know, V incident. It might be explained in one of the prior books why Guilliman isn't there, so I will flick through tonight, I think most likely Fulgrim or Deliverance Lost, but for him to not have any idea of anything that has been going on seems a bit of a poor attempt at getting it to fit in, just like TOD.

**Kanluwen**

If I remember right, Guilliman was in the process of refitting the fleet or something before an expeditionary force was to be launched.

I know the Dark Angels weren't there because they were finishing a campaign in the Shield Worlds.

**Pilau Rice**

Kanluwen wrote:If I remember right, Guilliman was in the process of refitting the fleet or something before an expeditionary force was to be launched.

I know the Dark Angels weren't there because they were finishing a campaign in the Shield Worlds.

Hopefully I find something along the lines of

I have sent messages to our brother Primarchs but have not been able to reach Guilliman due to my carrier pidgeon being to fat.

**Veteran Sergeant**

daveNYC wrote:Know No Fear sounds good, but then again, you also called Prospero Burns 'sublime'. Heck, I dragged my way through Mechanicum, so Know No Fear is going to end up on the reading list.

KNF is a good "low attention span" novel. It reads smoothly, and that's because for the most part, it cannot be bothered with things like coherency or character development. This isn't terrible. Like he said in his review, it reads like an action film. In that way, it might be one of the more effectively written of the HH novels, simply because you do indeed want to keep reading. Even if it is ultimately unsatisfying from a literary or intellectual level. It's the novel equivalent of a popcorn movie. Those looking for a solid narrative with few incongruencies and characters they can truly care about, will be somewhat disappointed (unless they are willing to simply "go with it" on its other strengths). Characters in KNF kinda come and go, sometimes without any explanation, only to reappear later. And the human character, Oll, may or may not grab you. If his story grabs you, he won't be a problem. If it doesn't, his sections are jarringly slow placed, as if someone inserted scenes from A Thin Red Line into Independence Day.

**Soladrin**

If your looking for reading on any literary or intellectual level black library isn't the place to look regardless of what series your looking at.

I personally liked KNF. As for the whole guilliman knew nothing issue, you have to remember that Calth is a LOOONG way from Istvaan and Terra , add warp storms and other shenanigens, and you get almost complete radio (or psyker?) silence.