Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I find this erroneous. I only have 1 wraith squad and 1 scarab swarm in my 1.5k list, and it seems to function fairly well.
It is of my opinion that only noobs spam, as they are unable to come up with decent tactics, and therefore rely on unimaginative gimmicks.
Noobs & mindless sheep are the only ones who spam.
For the noob, it lets them compete decently with more seasoned players and let's them in on the tourny fun as well. Usually after a while as they gain more experience and realise that spamming isn't an auto-win, they start to change things up and slowly build their own tactics and lists.
The mindless sheep are the bigger problem group. Guys who troll through the forums endlessly looking for the 'easy button' insta-win lists so they don't have to take the time & effort to learn how to properly play the game. Just look at how many people jumped onto the GK bandwagon! You can bet that for every person who was either a codex daemonhunters player or picked the army up for the modeling aspect, there's at least one other person who jumped on board because GK's are a '40k easy-mode'.
However, some armies do indeed have a 'one list to rule them all' book that they're shoehorned into using in order to be competitive. Look at daemons; it's pretty much mandetory to include Fateweaver because the army has a lack of shooting, few high armour save units and almost no anti-tank. Fatey though at least gives the core of the army a resiliance it otherwise lacks, which is crippling for a combat-oriented army.
I find the idea that you need mass infantry to win as IG a lie.
Iv even beat Necrons with my stupid "dumb" almost no infantry army build.
Overwhelming works with Tanks, and Artillery as well.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
sudojoe wrote:However, I really should defend the scientific method here a bit. While it may seem silly that there is a mathmatically optimal list, it most certainly can exist however it is a moving target and very hard to quantify as the metagame changes beyond people's abilities to predict it.
Oh, right, I'm not saying some lists aren't stronger than others or that math means nothing.
What I am disparaging is the idea that having a stronger list will always give you more victory, especially in such a small data set as a yearly tournament. I think what most tournament-types fail to realise is that the more similar controlled variables get (like how exactly you build your list), the more uncontrolled variables (like the way particular dice roll) affect the outcome of the game. Once you get a practically-the-best list, making the teeny tiny upgrade to a more-practically-the-best-list won't really affect things much, because the difference between your list and your opponent's list is microscopically small. For all intents, they're equal, which means list composition doesn't matter compared to other factors.
Of course, most tournament types like to believe that 40k is a controlled game because that means they earned their victories, rather than they got lucky at the right places at the right time, unlike the person who came in second or third (who must have been worse players, otherwise they would have come in first).
It's not uncommon for the human brain to attempt to quantify and control the random. It does tend to breed some peculiar ways of thinking about things, though.
Ailaros wrote:
...Of course, most tournament types like to believe that 40k is a controlled game because that means they earned their victories, rather than they got lucky at the right places at the right time, unlike the person who came in second or third (who must have been worse players, otherwise they would have come in first).
It's not uncommon for the human brain to attempt to quantify and control the random. It does tend to breed some peculiar ways of thinking about things, though.
If skill was all that really mattered in this game, I'd actually win most of my games.
But at its core, this is a game that uses dice to determine the outcomes of actions and sadly, they really don't like me.
Once your player skill gets out of the noob range, the purpose of skill is to play the odds more exactly how you want them to be played. When you have two players with basic mastery over the odds, it really does come down to how the dice roll.
I mean, I've had bad luck and still won before, but that's because my opponents did some really dumb stuff (and I've likewise given victories to other people in a similar fashion). But when two players are in top skill with strong lists, the differences between their skill level and list strength is small, which means its relatively unimportant compared to other factors.
Like how the dice roll.
If you want to ignore this fact, though, it makes sense to constantly be retooling your list to make something slighly more ultimate, as you'd think that would be the only thing (other than player skill) that would ever actually matter in determining the outcome.
The first time I played against Necrons with my all armor army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/12 22:12:25
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
Alexzandvar wrote:The first time I played against Necrons with my all armor army.
Been. There.
SEVEN TIMES.
I have learned after that first time to keep my units back and just pummel the advancing necrons with my Manticores and Basilisks. Put down a field of fire to wipe them out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When I won my first time against Necrons it was with my final unit left, a Leman Russ demolisher.
And when I won......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/12 22:23:26
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
I've been doing fairly okay without Tervigons and Trygons with Tyranids, but agreed on Hive Guard. If the enemy has any transports, your only hope of dropping them in time to let you get an assault off is Hive Guard.
Peehhh Infantry. Why waste points of SOFT SQUISHY MORTALS, when you can use points for Machines! I shall crush the enemy under the treads of my utterly overpowered and unbalanced army!
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
Wraiths w/ whipcoils + c'tan with time's arrow vs. Draigo = rage quitting GK player. Sigh...
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
I have learned after that first time to keep my units back and just pummel the advancing necrons with my Manticores and Basilisks. Put down a field of fire to wipe them out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
When I won my first time against Necrons it was with my final unit left, a Leman Russ demolisher.
My ultimate solution to necron blobs has become the psyker battle squad. It has been soooooo effective that they have become target #1 even surpassing the artillery. The valk sometimes still edge them out though.
weaken resolve, no worry about hoods, Ld 2, take 50% casualties, GG. Can't even roll your RP. I'm usually able to down at least 10 necrons with massed fire power a turn without problems by weight of fire and pie plates. It's geting them to stay down that's the hard part.
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
I don't take Venom Spam... I take 3 Ravagers though... I think that is the MUST HAVE unit for DE... I use 4-5 Venoms at 2k....
Tau DO NOT need kroot in any way shape or form to be comp.
I believe a XV8 Crisis Suit is a MUST HAVE. The XV88 Suits are very handy to have but you could field 3 Hammerheads and get by... No suits = Lose.
The only unit you're going to see in nearly every Eldar army is Fire Dragons.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Kabal of the Void Dominator - now with more purple! 
~4100
~1660
- 3300 painted 
Orks (5,000 pt Apoc Kan Wall, 1850 Bikerz)
Grey Knights (1850 Crowe Purifiers, 2500 'Ard Boyz Draigo)
Sisters of Battle (Seraphim spam)
2400 Empire
+ 
= 
+ 