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What are they? What units are mandatory in each list to become competative.

Blood Angels:
Descent of Angels

Chaos Daemons:
FateCrusher
Fiend Spam

Chaos Space Marines:
Obliterator Spam
Fzorgle-ation

Dark Eldar
Venom Spam

Eldar
Jetseer Council

Grey Knights
Henchmen Spaming
Paladin Armies
Purifier Spam

Imperial Guard
Leafblower
6 Hyrdas & as many Vendettas as you can afford

Necrons:
Wraiths & Scarab Spam

Orks:
Battlewagons and KFF

Sisters of Battle:
I don't REALLY know for SOB...

Space Marines:
Rifleman Dread Spam

Space Wolves:
Razorback Lists
3x Units of Longfangs

Tau Empire:
Those Battlesuits with big Railguns on their back spam
Kroot Spam ?

Tyranids:
Hive Guard, Tervigons, Trygons
Genestealer Spam



Have i missed any?
Are any of those Wrong ?

So you can use multiples of units with all armies? I am shocked!

Also, "FateCrusher"

I am not sure if an army that trades on the ability of a single character could be defined as "spam". Quite the contrary, armies that run on "synergy" such as Fateweaver + Bloodcrushers or Lash + templates (Oblits) tend to be the opposite of "spam" in most respects.

Likewise, a GK Paladin army tends to work largely on KP denial, rather than the typical "target saturation" of a spam-list.

Zweischneid wrote:So you can use multiples of units with all armies? I am shocked!

ah ha... Not really any need for the sarcasm to be honest...

I'm trying to find out with armies go along with the usual Tournemant Must haves.

Space wolves. 90% of lists MUST have the Long Fangs.

ect.ect.

Hydras and vendettas will struggle against AV14.
A unit's power is in relation to what it's facing. 6 hydra would be devestating to bikers and skimmers, but useless against 3 Land raiders.

Yeah but usually the vendettas have some meltavets in.

I'm talking about the units that are in almost every compettative list, cus i'm doing an article about tournemants have no variety in the armies.

I'd like to go to a tournemant and see Pyrovores, Ogryns, Furies of Chaos, Chaos Bikers and Rough Riders. The units that are different and, whilst bad or overcosted or whatever, still have a tactical edge to them and still provide some sort of assistance to the army.

Bloodhorror wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:So you can use multiples of units with all armies? I am shocked!

ah ha... Not really any need for the sarcasm to be honest...

I'm trying to find out with armies go along with the usual Tournemant Must haves.

Space wolves. 90% of lists MUST have the Long Fangs.

ect.ect.

Well, you rephrased the thing from "Every Race has a Spam List (Sort of)" to be a bit more sensible. Anyhow, "spam" generally is a reference to overwhelming/undermining an opponents ability to target/target priority by repeating multiple, redundant units. The typical 6 small Grey Hunter in Razorback + 3 Long Fang in Razorback + added stuff is a good example. It can present as many as 18 different targets from troops and HS alone, and can also target as many as 21 different targets a turn, all without offereing a clear "priority target" to the opponent as they all work to a degree as anti-tank, anti-infantry, etc.. reasonably well.

Yet not every army that replicates a type of unit falls into this categry. As said, a Paladin list for example will not by able to really "spam" in this sense, as the model-count is to low. Rather, Paladin lists usually play on the assumption that they can neuter a significant part of the opponents FP and win by KP-denial and/or objectives depending on the mission. So even though a "paladin-list" includes multiple paladin-units, it doesn't work to the logic of "spam" unless you dilute the definition of "spam" is simple "any given unit twice, at which point the "spam" definition is so broad as to be useless.

Similar, Tau Broadsides may offer a good investment. If you have 3 units, you have good anti-tank and can also split fire with the right equipment to target more than 3 units a turn. I would not however see them as "spam" in a narrow sense as they are highly defined in their Anti-tank role, which in turn is hard for Tau to replicate efficiently outside HS. They thus present the opponents with fairly straightforward target priority: e.g. take them out first if you rely in high AV (say a Landraider-list iconically) or ignore them if they offer not significant threat (say an Ork green-tide or the above Space Wolves list). The are not as fungible in their tactical role as, say, a small Grey Hunter unit with 2 special weapons, cc-weapons and a las-plas Raz. Consequently, they are less "spammable" and rely on different tactics (bubble-wraping, speed-bumping, whathaveyou).

Well I run with wolves and I don't have any long fangs in my army at all and I do just fine without them.

Bloodhorror wrote:I'm talking about the units that are in almost every compettative list.

But Again, i'm trying to find out the lists that are almost always present in tournemants.

Last years Warp Storm at Maelstrom games saw 2 Imperial Guard lists being taken, both having the 6 hydras, 3 vendettas and a ton of melta vets.

Psyrifle Dreads for GK

for the SoB I believe it's 2 BSS (as requires troops of course)
2 Exorcists
2 Dominions with TL-MM immos
Celestine
Uriah jacobs (and probably a battle conclave of 6DCA/3crusaders)
That's like, what, around 1100 points that every sisters of battle army in existence would take?

It's not just that these are required to be competitive, it's all we really have to select from. hehe.

Though I suppose you could try total un-armored and have only seraphim, retrebutors, and repentia. I've yet to see that list.

Orks don't need battlewagons to be competitive. Kan walls do pretty good too. I agree on the KFF though, and I'll add boyz to the list. All competitive Ork lists currently have KFF and Boyz with whatever support fits the player's goal best, be that battlewagons or killa kans usually.

Fire Warriors.

Orks = Boyz

Quite simple and vague, but fixes everything.

Too many pie plates? Get more Boyz to da fight! Death Star? More Boyz to stomp em good! Too many Orks? Rubbish, get more Boyz! Them beakies hassling you with their fancy shootas? Get da Boyz over there and get to the krumpin. Humies hiding in their metal boxes? Boyz have a hidden PK, get smashing! Elves zooming around? Get enough Boyz to cover da field, they can't run forever. Them Tin boyz keep getting up? Good keeps da boyz happy.

Great White wrote:Fire Warriors.

Yeah this, you need at least one squad to make a legal army list so I guess this is the only must take unit.

I only ever field about 5-10 Guardsmen and a Command squad in my army.

Once I played a battle were the only infantry I had was 1 Lord Commisar.

Jetseer isn't must have, it's a deathstar.

A must have is Wave Serpent with DAVU and or 5 firedragons.

Bloodhorror wrote:
Space Marines:
Rifleman Dread Spam

I play Space Marines, and so does all but a single player at my local club. Not only have I never seen a Rifleman Dread fielded in a tournament, I've never seen one fielded, period. No travelling players have ever brought one in either. I was all expecting another 'omigodspacemarinesspampods' or 'omigodspacemarinesspamrhinos' thread. I can't speak for stores, clubs, and games that I'm not in, but around my area, it's just not the case.

Jetseers aren't mandatory at all, but Farseer(s)/Eldrad ARE.

@ bloodhorror

I think the term you are really looking for is "internal balance", which tends to describe the relative attractiveness of different choices in a given army list, or a given army list's FoC category.

Some books handle it better, some worse, though trying to do a "internal-balance" ranking of some sort will inevitably lead to a flame war of massive proportion. But common examples are, among others, Space Wolf Long Fangs, IG Vendettas or GK Psyfleman Dreads. For the respective FoC choice of their respective armies, they tend to be "very good", so you will likely see a prevalence for them in "competitive lists" (especially those traded over net-forums, rather than lists "built-by-experience").

Inversely, other books offer more (meaningful) choices, so there is less overall domination of just one type of unit that sticks out as the "no-brain choice".

But in a sense, your aim of doing a list of those "no-brain choices" across all books is somewhat flawed because not all books handle "internal balance" equally good or bad.

For the SoB I'd definitely say their special characters. Given the huge nerf to the Canoness, they almost seem to be unplayable without.

Bloodhorror wrote:Dark Eldar
Venom Spam

Are any of those Wrong ?

Dark Eldar do great with wyches in raiders. Venom, as effective as they can be, are not mandatory.

Dark Eldar : Triple Triple-lanced Ravagers with FF

DoA? Competitive?

For BA, its Sanguinary Priests. Not matter what you are doing, your list is only helped by including some.

pyrovores oh and mandrakes....dont forget mandrakes

Bloodhorror wrote:Yeah but usually the vendettas have some meltavets in.

I'm talking about the units that are in almost every compettative list, cus i'm doing an article about tournemants have no variety in the armies.

I'd like to go to a tournemant and see Pyrovores, Ogryns, Furies of Chaos, Chaos Bikers and Rough Riders. The units that are different and, whilst bad or overcosted or whatever, still have a tactical edge to them and still provide some sort of assistance to the army.

I've seen all these units, usually in the best painted categories XD

Competitive painting exist btw either as part of a general tourny and occassionally as a stand alone paint project. In Japan, you actually end up seeing quite alot of model painting (in general, not just GW models) done as shows and what not. There's almost always a speed paint, best painted, most unique etc at just about every anime convention here. I'm pretty sure they have some in the US and EU as well.


As an aside, if you ever get Korean TV, they have full time video game competition championships on two dedicated channels. They still have star craft tournaments and you typically see the most effective builds demonstrated though sometimes someone does use another unit or 5 when it is most effective. That is changing on the fly but the opening moves are typically the same.

Warhammer table top cannot be changed on the fly. You can't adapt new units onto the map after the game started. You just have to build your initial list with the most effective all comers effectiveness/point at the start. Since you mentioned competitive, you really can't expect people to just take flavor in their lists when some units are really poorly conceived and doesn't offer enough for just about any purpose. Blaming people for fielding what is more effective when they are blinded to their oponent while some units in codexes are so specialized is kind of a silly argument.

Should I take a katana to a gun fight? I'd look cool for sure but kind of ineffective. If you told me that it'd be a gun fight but everyone starts less than 2 ft from eachother and everyone has bullet resistant armor and I get a light saber or a gun... hey, that stabby stabby looks a lot better.

Tau: Pathfinders and Seeker Missile Spam

Necrons: Lords with MSS (okay so this is for more of lulz though it is competitive), Annihilation Barges are a pretty good unit to bring along, CCB w/ Lord w/ warscythe

n0t_u wrote:Orks = Boyz

Quite simple and vague, but fixes everything.

Too many pie plates? Get more Boyz to da fight! Death Star? More Boyz to stomp em good! Too many Orks? Rubbish, get more Boyz! Them beakies hassling you with their fancy shootas? Get da Boyz over there and get to the krumpin. Humies hiding in their metal boxes? Boyz have a hidden PK, get smashing! Elves zooming around? Get enough Boyz to cover da field, they can't run forever. Them Tin boyz keep getting up? Good keeps da boyz happy.

That second-to-last one made me chuckle because it was exactly how I got a massacre against someone. Against Chaos Daemons (1k point match) I had killed everything but his last HQ on a chariot ( ) - anyways, something that made him move 12" in the movement phase, with flatout/turbo boost capability. I thought I was screwed, but I had enough boyz left on the field that he eventually got stuck in a corner, and even turboboosting over the flood of boyz would have left him in assault range.

On topic, I don't see Battlewagons as being completely necessary. I win plenty of games just by flooding the field with regular, plain old boyz. As for other armies, I see a lot of Grey Knight psyrifle dreadnoughts (Dreadnought with two twin-linked autocannons and psybolt ammo), and Sisters of Battle have the Exorcist.

Bloodhorror wrote:I'm talking about the units that are in almost every compettative list, cus i'm doing an article about tournemants have no variety in the armies

Then you're looking for something different than "must have" units.

Tournaments are different than regular games of 40k, because they're timed (and usually have WAY too many points for their time limit), they almost universally have WAY too little terrain, and they rarely use a single mission from the main rulebook, like the rulebook tells you (either they will do different missions, or they will do combinations of missions, which wrecks the drawback of KP games, for example).

Add to this the psychology of the tournament player. People who are willing to travel great distances and sometimes spend serious money on 40k are the kind of people who believe that 40k can be boiled down to a science, rather than a strategy game built around dice. If you have this mindset, you are much more willing to believe that each codex has a, one, THE most competitive list, and that there is a, one, THE most competitive army with said list. All of the theorycrafting and playing are just trying to identify what the one proverbial ring of power list is that can beat them all, and they will use however much science they need to find it, at least, until the next codex comes out, and they have to obsess over new calculations again.

Combine a certain type of person with a certain type of game in a certain kind of environment and you're going to get a certain way of thinking about 40k. It has nothing to do with "must have" choices within a codex itself.

And just to make a specific correction, you need neither vendettas nor hydras to play guard competitively. I've played plenty competitive with other plenty competitive players and have won, despite only occasionally fielding hydras, and having never fielded a vendetta.

Add to this the psychology of the tournament player. People who are willing to travel great distances and sometimes spend serious money on 40k are the kind of people who believe that 40k can be boiled down to a science, rather than a strategy game built around dice. If you have this mindset, you are much more willing to believe that each codex has a, one, THE most competitive list, and that there is a, one, THE most competitive army with said list. All of the theorycrafting and playing are just trying to identify what the one proverbial ring of power list is that can beat them all, and they will use however much science they need to find it, at least, until the next codex comes out, and they have to obsess over new calculations again.

I had a sudden mental image of someone yelling "Noooo my precioussssss!" as a new codex is released and the metagame suddenly changed.

However, I really should defend the scientific method here a bit. While it may seem silly that there is a mathmatically optimal list, it most certainly can exist however it is a moving target and very hard to quantify as the metagame changes beyond people's abilities to predict it.

Bloodhorror wrote:What are they? What units are mandatory in each list to become competative.

Necrons:
Wraiths & Scarab Spam

I find this erroneous. I only have 1 wraith squad and 1 scarab swarm in my 1.5k list, and it seems to function fairly well.
It is of my opinion that only noobs spam, as they are unable to come up with decent tactics, and therefore rely on unimaginative gimmicks.

Chaos Space Marines:
Defiler