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I've been thinking of this more, and rending really seems like the best solution for avengers. This is another good reason for rending.

Lack of special weapons (aka, bolters suck)
How many players do you see say "Bolters are great! Don't waste points on meltaguns for your squads." None. This is because the bolter is often a weapon that people view as a 'necessary evil' to take their special weapons.
One of the ways a squad is judged is its cost/per special weapon ratio and why IG vets are so viewed as OP. Bolters suck, and likewise the avenger shuriken cat today sucks. People (including myself) use them to their best ability, but trust me -- anyone if they would rather have melta/PG/flamers over bolters.

Avengers get no special weapons, putting them at the bottom of the barrel of the troop choices. Rending solves this issue.
On average 10 avengers will hit 15 shots when firing, and land about ~2.5 rending shots with ~7.5 wounds. This is slightly better than a PG today. The avengers can reliably score a penetrating hit on AV 11, and have about a 50% of scoring a penetrating hit on AV12. This is slightly better than a PG but less than a MG.

This puts the on a similar pattern as the GK armies, which rely upon the rending psycannons to do the bulk of their work. If BS3 rending shuriken cannons scare someone, they must cry themselves to sleep at night over the though of a psycannon!

As such, rending cats gives the avengers/guardians a bit more punch and fill lack of special weapons hole in the unit.

It also gives the unit a bit more teeth vs. standard MEQ targets. Normally those ~7.5 wounds will kill ~2.5 MEQ. This increases the death rate to ~4.3 MEQ. Its certainly more scary for MEQ out of cover, but for those in cover its not much more deadly at all.

Can this be exploited with bladestorm and guide/doom? Yes, but no more so than DCA with dual hammerhands. The cost to get that advantage grows and can be replicated through more fire dragon squads. In summary I don't think it would be something touted as the 'most broken thing in 40k' Heck, compared to today's codex's its just a neat parlor trick.

I still think that's way too powerful.

GKs have shown us the power of massed rending. This change would take it to a whole new level.

Even if they were changed to Str3 it would be OTT.


Maybe a psuedo rending. Like rolls of a 6 to wound automatically wound and count as Ap3.

With full on rending it would mean that no vehicle short of a Landraider would be safe. Ninja Stars shouldn't wield that kinda power.

Grey Templar wrote:Maybe a psuedo rending. Like rolls of a 6 to wound automatically wound and count as Ap3.

Something similar to Gargoyles Blinding Poison could work. Any rolls of 6 to hit automatically wound. You'd be reluctant to abuse Guide to reroll dice that don't get a 6 (since you might miss entirely), but gives a nice additional punch. Certainly makes Gargoyles nastier in assault than they should be.

It's basically the Fantasy poison rule.

That could work.

Grey Templar wrote:Maybe a psuedo rending. Like rolls of a 6 to wound automatically wound and count as Ap3..

So something like rending but not vs vehciles?

I still think it does not address the main issue of a lack of special weapon in the avenger/guardian squad, but its a step in the right direction.

Auto-wounding on a 6 is pretty weak. Basically that says they have a chance to wound T8 or above. So.....that's wraithlords. You need to make it with an AP3 with the ability to ignore FNP to make it decent.

Why not different ammo types for DA like sternguard
normal 24" S4 ap 5 assault 2
Armour piercing 24" S1 ap4 assault 2 rending (in its defense it needs 6s to hurt anything and it has maximum vech risk of glaning av 10)
Tactical 24" S3 ap 6 assault 2 /heavy 3 * any model/unit that suffered an unsaved wound or casulty from these shots move as in difficult terrain in their next movement phase

Guardians only get the base ammo but with rapid fire instead of Assault

cannons are 48" S4 Ap 6 heavy 5

pistols st3 ap6 pistol2 only 1 attack in cc still

this would add tactical choice and flexibility to eldars troops and explains the different shape stars in artwork and also makes shuriken unique and shows Da s as masters of the craft.

No rending for basic troopers guns. Just no. Never.

TheRobotLol wrote:No rending for basic troopers guns. Just no. Never.

Unless your a GK. They can have psycannons with no problems in both strike squads and paladins. They can have 2-4 of them. And their STR 7 to boot. (Thats 16 STR 7 rending shots, compared to 20 STR 4 rending shots)

Aside from GK though. Just no. Never.

Edit : I don't mean to pick on you, but just pointing out the flaw in your statement.

labmouse42 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Maybe a psuedo rending. Like rolls of a 6 to wound automatically wound and count as Ap3..

So something like rending but not vs vehciles?

I still think it does not address the main issue of a lack of special weapon in the avenger/guardian squad, but its a step in the right direction.

Auto-wounding on a 6 is pretty weak. Basically that says they have a chance to wound T8 or above. So.....that's wraithlords. You need to make it with an AP3 with the ability to ignore FNP to make it decent.

12.5% improved chance per shot against GEQ, 25,2% improved chance per shot against MEQ. Significantly larger improvements the higher the toughness. It is a worth-while improvement, but the question is if it doesn't shift the focus of the weapon in the wrong direction.

labmouse42 wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:No rending for basic troopers guns. Just no. Never.

Unless your a GK. They can have psycannons with no problems in both strike squads and paladins. They can have 2-4 of them. And their STR 7 to boot. (Thats 16 STR 7 rending shots, compared to 20 STR 4 rending shots)

Aside from GK though. Just no. Never.

Edit : I don't mean to pick on you, but just pointing out the flaw in your statement.

You're not pointing flaw in his statement, because you're making a strawman. "No rending for basic troopers guns." was what he said.

Basic Troops in GK army all have storm bolters, Psycannons being special weapons you can get for 1 per 5 models (strike and terminator squads) or 2 per 5 models (paladins and purifiers, both in fact Elites made into troops by special characters).

Also, 10 man paladin squad with 4 psycannons cost minimum of 590 points, slightly more than your 10 man eldar guardian squad.

Edit: 4 psycannons in 5 man Troop unit would be plain horrible though, good thing that even Matt Ward was sane enough not to make SC who'd made Purgation squads Troops.

Unlike Shuriken weapons, the Psycannon isn't their basic weapon however. Gauss is powerful and yet that's weaker than rending.

The flaw I see with seeking an Eldar equivalent or compromise for the lack of a special weapon, is that it's versatility Eldar don't look for. Guardians (of both types) have special weapons, but as an Aspect Warrior, the Dire Avenger's are meant to specialise in a particular role in warfare and that's holding ground, fighting either defensively or offensively (in equal capability) or mowing down infantry, which are all things they can do.
If you want to take out MeQ, then that's what Banshees, Shining Spears and Fire Dragons are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons).
If you want to take out vehicles or monstrous creatures, then that's what Fire Dragons or even Spears or Hawks are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons)

*This is going by intended role; obviously things are not so effective in-game, but that's due to the flaws/date of the Codex and is not something that will be fixed by changing Shuriken Weaponry, but rather an update all-together.

Rending - even if just against infantry - is simply too powerful or flexible for the intended role of Shuriken-units IMHO. Particularly when combined with Doom/Guide/Bladestorm.
Then there is also the questionable accuracy-to-background of something like pseudo-rending, in that Eldar weapons fire what are effectively discs. These discs shouldn't be as effective against armour (particularly terminator or power) as rending would make them, not should they in theory be more powerful than Boltguns.
Shuriken weapons are noted for their Rate of Fire, not their stopping power or armour piercing (both of which are reflected in pseudo-rending).
Another flaw I see with this is the power of standard-models weapon, Fire Warriors have the most powerful weapon and even that doesn't achieve a massive model/shot-to-kill ratio as on the whole, the standard troop choices/ weapons shouldn't.

labmouse42 wrote:
I still think it does not address the main issue of a lack of special weapon in the avenger/guardian squad, but its a step in the right direction.

Required Shuriken Catapult fix aside, Guardians should be able to take their fusion guns and flamers in the catapult squads, not just the (laughably terrible) Storm Guardian squads.

Well, then there's the option of simply flicking through the codex (any version will do), raising your eyebrow, then asking yourself "if this is how their craftmanship is described, let alone their technology, why aren't their weapons all Master-crafted?"

(I also agree with DarknessEternal. Flamers and Fusion Guns seem like a Defender Guardian weapon option while Guardian Storm should have special melee weapons as options.)

Maybe the special weapon issue can be solved with the Exarchs.

Give DA exarchs the option to purchase Fusion pistols or some kind of eldar hand flamer.

It would still keep the specilized feel of the different Paths, but it would give them some anti-tank or improved anti-infantry. Especially if the rumored changes to flamer weapons in 6th is true.

Luide wrote:You're not pointing flaw in his statement, because you're making a strawman. "No rending for basic troopers guns." was what he said.

I read his statement has 'No rending for basic trooper guns' as in a basic trooper with a gun (ie Troops choice). I was not striving to make a strawman, but I will admit it was 5am when I wrote that. I can see the intent being as basic troop choice gun.

As a side note, how many other troop choices have access to rending weapons. The only one I can think off off top of my head is genestealers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Maybe the special weapon issue can be solved with the Exarchs.

Give DA exarchs the option to purchase Fusion pistols or some kind of eldar hand flamer.

It would still keep the specilized feel of the different Paths, but it would give them some anti-tank or improved anti-infantry. Especially if the rumored changes to flamer weapons in 6th is true.

This is an excellent idea, and there is already some precedent for it. The fire dragon exarch can bring a flamer. The dark avenger exarch can being a ML. The swooping hawk can that OP web of skulls....wait...wrong edition

labmouse42 wrote:

Luide wrote:You're not pointing flaw in his statement, because you're making a strawman. "No rending for basic troopers guns." was what he said.

I read his statement has 'No rending for basic trooper guns' as in a basic trooper with a gun (ie Troops choice). I was not striving to make a strawman, but I will admit it was 5am when I wrote that. I can see the intent being as basic troop choice gun.

As a side note, how many other troop choices have access to rending weapons. The only one I can think off off top of my head is genestealers.

You were originally correct, that is what he wrote (assuming you throw in an apostrophe).

"Basic trooper's guns" is a gun that belongs to a basic trooper. (Not excluding upgrade guns.)

"Basic, trooper's guns" is a gun that is basic and it belongs to a trooper.

And, what he wrote "Basic troopers guns" are guns that are, themselves, basic troopers.

Ok back on topic How about Shuriken Weapons cause Pinning and Shrieker Weapons (Death Jesters gun for example)cause Rending with a few more Shrieker weapons available this would be fair imo

That wouldn't be much of a boost. Pinning is pretty dang worthless in 5th, although it could be awsome in 6th if the rumored changes are true.

Brother SRM wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Woah. Woah. Woah. No. Stop it, stop it right now.

Should stay exactly the same, but have 18" range as standard. DA get 24".

This is all I would change, and a points reduction to make Guardians worth taking. Giving an army's standard firearm rending is ridiculous.

Boy howdy, do I ever miss having Divine Guidance on standard Battle Sisters Squads.

I know it wasn't QUITE rending, but as far as Terminators are concerned, basically the same thing.

Edit: They could also do it in melee.

Edit again: And also hit at either I5 or S... Can't remember if it doubled or added 2. 5 or 6 anyways. But if they did the latter, they hit at I1, regardless of modifiers.

I guess you could say that on a 6+ it counts as being AP2. Giving the effect of rending without the vehicle effect, similar to the SoB's old Divining Guidance. Then keep them to about 18" assault 2 weapons.

Or increase the range and simply only add the above effect to the DA's catapults.

labmouse42 wrote:

As a side note, how many other troop choices have access to rending weapons. The only one I can think off off top of my head is genestealers.

SM scouts with sniper rifles, IG infantry platoons with sniper rifles, IG Veteran squads with sniper rifles, Eldar rangers and Pathfinders. I think Daemonettes have rending CC attacks too.

Problem is not so much with having some Rending special weapons in squad, as special weapon is a special weapon. But having whole basic troop choice given rending weapons, especially Assault 2 Rending weapons, is very much problematic from balance point.

I think it would just be better to allow Guardians have some special weapons in their squads, like pretty much everyone else can have.

Are you talking purely ranged weapons?

Genestealers have been troops and have had rending claws since 3rd edition. Or go back to the 3rd edition 'get you by' list, they were troops with power weapons.

Luide wrote:SM scouts with sniper rifles,

Problem is not so much with having some Rending special weapons in squad, as special weapon is a special weapon. But having whole basic troop choice given rending weapons

In your example, you give SM scouts, which can all be equipped with rending weapons. While they are not assault 2, they have a 36" range, which is significantly better. That's an excellent comparison, and thank you for bringing it up.
If basic troops with rending were completely overpowered, why don't we see entire armies taken with scout snipers? Why are eldar rangers considered one of the worst troop choices in the game?

Thus far nearly all arguements against rending have been emotional with no mathhammer backing it -- which one exception which included a doomed unit, a guided avenger squad, and a bladestorm. Why not take a normal case where 20 shots are fired, and then compare that point-for-point to grey hunters with PG, or purifiers with psycannons. I ran the numbers and while avengers did more dmg than most squads (like purifiers) they are also much more fragile. However, point for point, avengers just could not hold a candle to the MEQ killers known as fire dragons.

Another problem is that avengers are supposed to be specialized in killing infantry. The fact that fire dragons can kill more MEQ than avengers can is very off. IMHO, the killing power of avengers should be better vs. infantry, which comes from more shots. The problem with that is dragons are just so good at killing with AP1 weapons. 10 dragons can realistically be expected to kill 7 MEQ. I wish there was a mechanic like in the game 'dawn of war' where weapons had their dmg vs vehicles and dmg vs infantry and different numbers.
One could simply say, Avengers are ment to kill GEQ and not MEQ. That's all fine and good, save for that 70%+ of the armies on the table are MEQ, and your forced to take avengers/guardians/rangers as troop choices. In summary, the theme of the eldar army is specialized weapons, and the avengers just are outspecialized in their role by the anti-tank specialized troops.

All that being said, a much less controversial solution is also to give a speical weapon to the exarch, and to let guardians take 2 fusion guns/flamers like storm guardians. This solves the problem easily.

I'd probably work on the mobile more than the damage. Slightly increased range would be ok. But something like "Eldar/Guadian Fleet": can still fire a shot with non-heavy Shuri-weapons while running or something of the kind would put the fast and hard to catch back into Eldar.

That said, I don't see Shurikens as great against armour in the first place. A hail of little sharp things should be hell against unarmoured stuff, not heavy armour. I'd rather see something like "Torrent of Shuriken" alternatives in the direction of can fire Str. 4, AP - , Assault 1, Small Blast (or Template), but are then expended the next turn similar to Bladestorm.

Shuriken weapons do not fire shuriken, They fire monomolecular disks.
I'm no superbrain but if monomolecular is how it sounds it would be 1 particle thick. (If that is not a fine/sharp edge i dont know what is)
Now taking that into consideration what fluff-wise would be an acceptable USR for Shuri weapons?

They're Shurican, molecule thin shurican, but shurican nontheless.

None of the USRs would fit without seriously effecting game balance if their other stats remained the same.


I'd be ok with them being rending if, and only if, all Shurican weapons became Str2 Ap-

if they keep their same basic statlines they have now then at best they could get the psuedo-rending I mentioned earlier(rolls of 6 to wound become AP4 and alway wounds regardless of toughness)

labmouse42 wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:No rending for basic troopers guns. Just no. Never.

Unless your a GK. They can have psycannons with no problems in both strike squads and paladins. They can have 2-4 of them. And their STR 7 to boot. (Thats 16 STR 7 rending shots, compared to 20 STR 4 rending shots)

Aside from GK though. Just no. Never.

Edit : I don't mean to pick on you, but just pointing out the flaw in your statement.

Grey knights? Just no. Never.

TheRobotLol wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:No rending for basic troopers guns. Just no. Never.

Unless your a GK. They can have psycannons with no problems in both strike squads and paladins. They can have 2-4 of them. And their STR 7 to boot. (Thats 16 STR 7 rending shots, compared to 20 STR 4 rending shots)

Aside from GK though. Just no. Never.

Edit : I don't mean to pick on you, but just pointing out the flaw in your statement.

Grey knights? Just no. Never.

The difference there is that its a Special Weapon, not something the whole squad can get.

its also just about the only thing they have to take on Tanks and heavy infantry with. No Melta or Plasma(henchmen are for a completely different list type)

I remember a suggestion for guardians and dire avengers shuriken weapons to 18" both, and then just give DA twiin linked. Makes the weapons the same and stands more for the increased experience the dire avengers have. 18" cuts down the if I can shoot you, I get charged the next turn from guardians, but they shouldn't be fitted out with a rending weapon right off that bat. Unless you were going to raise the basic price of guardians and dire avengers both. That could be more fluffy since the guardians aren't supposed to be all that common.

18" Guardian, 24" DA. DA can ignore armour saves on a roll to hit as 6. An Exarch power increases this to 5+

Problem solved.