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Should all be rending

Woah. Woah. Woah. No. Stop it, stop it right now.

Should stay exactly the same, but have 18" range as standard. DA get 24".

I ran the maths, and statistically, 10 DAs with a Bladestorm Exarch and a Farseer with Guide and Doom (and Stones, of course) ends up dealing 9 rending and 8.5 normal wounds to a T4 model, if they re-roll failed hits and re-roll all wounds that did not rend.

Those 9 rends statistically kill 6 Terminators alone, 3 if they have TH/SS, with the normal wounds making it 4. If they jump into combat, the 24 combined attacks (18 from the DAs, 3 from the Exarch, 3 from the Farseer) see 11 Hits from the DAs and Exarch, and 2 from the Farseer, of which essentially both will wound, with 4.882779 wounds coming from the Avengers + Exarch, for a total of 7 (6.882779) wounds, meaning the final Terminator dies before he can strike.

Sure, the DA squad cost 272pts, which is more than the assault terminators, but only by 72pts, and you killed off a unit that could've survived a lot longer and done a lot more damage.

I prefer the 18" Guardian Catapults and 24" Avenger Catapults, they don't need rending at all.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Woah. Woah. Woah. No. Stop it, stop it right now.

Should stay exactly the same, but have 18" range as standard. DA get 24".

This is all I would change, and a points reduction to make Guardians worth taking. Giving an army's standard firearm rending is ridiculous.

Guardsmen are 5pts each, and have the exact same statline as a Guardian, with the exception of 1 worse I and 1 worse Ld (without a Sergeant, which, with Guardsmen, comes as standard).

6pt Guardians would suit me, with the extra I and extra Ld being somewhat balanced by the 18" weapon (assuming it gets increased), perhaps even 5pts each considering that guardians would come without a squad leader, and with shorter-ranged weaponry. 3pts More than a Guardsman for 12" less range (both have the same no. of shots at 12" too), 1 greater I, 1 greater Ld, being forced to take a weapon platform, and having far fewer options, just isn't worth it by far.

Whilst we're on the topic of the platform, make it optional.

No, no, and NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Rending is VERY powerful. Str4 rending can potentially glance AV13. That is WAY OTT for little ninja-star guns.


Guardians and Dire Avengers need to be made better, but it isn't because their weapon is bad.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
Should stay exactly the same, but have 18" range as standard. DA get 24".

No thank you. Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters are 7 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Guardians and Dire Avengers need to be made better, but it isn't because their weapon is bad.

They have one of the worst weapons in the game.

Shuriken Cannons would become epic.

A squad of 3 WWs with Shuriken Cannons would spit out 18 shots, which, if guided, gives us 13.5 hits, and would hurt AV13 and 14 on 6s, and auto-penetrate AV12 on 6s, of which there would be about 2 (2.2545). Those 2 rends will auto-penetrate AV12, at least glance AV13, or penetrate it on a 2 or 3, and would glance AV14 on a 2 or penetrate on a 3.

With 2 rends, that's:
2 auto-penetrates on AV12
0.67 glances and 1.33 penetrates on AV13
0.67 glances and 0.67 penetrates on AV14

Which all rounds to:
AV13 - 1 Glance and 1 Penetrate
AV14 - 1 Glance and 1 Penetrate

All for 120pts (190 if you include the most basic Guideseer).

I agree with increasing the range, having squishy wee troops with miserably short ranged guns is a huge disadvantage. However an entire army's core having Rending? I think that goes a bit far the other way...

I would also agree with the increased range, rending is a bit much though!

I want increased AP on Eldar weapons rather than range. So much of the equipment in the whole army is high AP and that really harms their chances. Fighting CSM yesterday I was struck by how hard it was to kill terminators and marines with shuriken weapons. Add the low range and you have the enemy getting up close and then getting through the firing into CC. Surely if the Eldar know they are weak and have mega technology they would at least want to keep the enemy at arm's reach?

Increase the range and make them rapid fireable.

Avatar 720 wrote:I ran the maths, and statistically, 10 DAs with a Bladestorm Exarch and a Farseer with Guide and Doom (and Stones, of course) ends up dealing 9 rending and 8.5 normal wounds to a T4 model, if they re-roll failed hits and re-roll all wounds that did not rend.

Those 9 rends statistically kill 6 Terminators alone, 3 if they have TH/SS, with the normal wounds making it 4. If they jump into combat, the 24 combined attacks (18 from the DAs, 3 from the Exarch, 3 from the Farseer) see 11 Hits from the DAs and Exarch, and 2 from the Farseer, of which essentially both will wound, with 4.882779 wounds coming from the Avengers + Exarch, for a total of 7 (6.882779) wounds, meaning the final Terminator dies before he can strike.

Sure, the DA squad cost 272pts, which is more than the assault terminators, but only by 72pts, and you killed off a unit that could've survived a lot longer and done a lot more damage.

I prefer the 18" Guardian Catapults and 24" Avenger Catapults, they don't need rending at all.

I don't think you're allowed to re-roll wounds that succeed even if it would statistically grant you a better result.

In either case, I think that Bladestorm should be removed completely. While an interesting mechanic, it does completely lock catapults where they need to be improved significantly for non-DA models by making the "better version" completely over the top when rolling +1 attack from Bladestorm.

However, when discussing the 272pts squad, it is important to note that the lesser survival in the DA squad is something which speaks in the DA squad's favour, not the other way around. The DA squad is easier to kill with lighter weapons, this means that they are at a disadvantage and as such merit a cost reduction or performance increase compared to an arbitrary balance between two compared units.
In other words, the unit that could've survived a lot longer and done a lot more damage should've cost a lot (times 2) more.

Personally I don't know about rending. It feels like it's over-used in WH40K at the moment, even if the shuriken swarm is the posterchild for what weapon would be rending. My personal preference would be:
Range 18", S4, AP*, Assault 2. * A shuriken burst penalizes any save made against it by one.

screw buffing the weapons all together!

Give all Eldar biological units Hit and Run, since they're oh so nimble elves. It would give them a fair bit more use out of those short range assault weapons.

Karnac wrote:screw buffing the weapons all together!

Give all Eldar biological units Hit and Run, since they're oh so nimble elves. It would give them a fair bit more use out of those short range assault weapons.

I actually really like this idea. Hit & Run instead of fleet. Get charged? Break away with your good I, shoot 'em up at close range, charge the remainder with a CC squad

"I don't think you're allowed to re-roll wounds that succeed even if it would statistically grant you a better result."

Doom allows you to reroll to-wound, no requirement for it to be failed to-wound only. RAW you can reroll anything you like.

Increased range, maybe assault 3 within 12"?

Ok so rending is a bit much but what about Shuriken weapons -1 on armour saves -2 at half range or Rolls of 6 to hit are AP3

Well, they definitely need something. Personally, I'd like to see all Shuriken Weapons become AP1. That'd make Eldar a natural check on all the SM spam.

On a more balanced note: Make them rapid fire 24", and increase them to S5.

Problem with bumping them to S5 on base guns is that's the only thing that makes Tau worth taking.

If you up Guardians to be RF 24", S5 AP5, you have a Fire Warrior for about 1/2 the cost, that doesn't get steamrolled as badly in CC.

Shrike325 wrote:Problem with bumping them to S5 on base guns is that's the only thing that makes Tau worth taking.

If you up Guardians to be RF 24", S5 AP5, you have a Fire Warrior for about 1/2 the cost, that doesn't get steamrolled as badly in CC.

Okay, then how about making them AP4? I'd really like to avoid having Shuriken Catapults just be a Bolter clone. Eldar have already lost many of the things that made them technologically advanced, we don't want to loose any more.

I could get behind AP4. Helps a lot against Tau and Necrons, not much of change against other armies.

Shrike325 wrote:
If you up Guardians to be RF 24", S5 AP5, you have a Fire Warrior for about 1/2 the cost, that doesn't get steamrolled as badly in CC.

Try 4/5 of the cost and loses faster in CC. They both blow so hard in CC that the 4+ save is a better thing to have.

Get back to the 2ed 24" range, and stuff this dg/da range dichotomy. It really weirds me out that the aspect boys have bigger guns. Their advantage is bs4 and bladestorm (which, btw, should be an every turn ability). Keep them at ap5 but also assault 2 to differentiate from bolters.

Increase the Shuriken Catapult range to 18" and the Avenger Shuriken Catapult to 24". Make them have either AP 4 or a kind of Fantasy ish thing (AP 5 and reduces armour saves by -1).

Remember though that Fire Warriors have 2 very distinct advantages that Guardians do not.

1. Bonding Knives... being able to regroup while below 50% is HUGE.

2. Options... unit upgrade has tons of things that can make the unit better, like markerlights and Target Lock, Black Sun Filter, etc.

That being said I can't see Shuriken weapons becoming Rending... I could see them getting a rule that makes them AP2 on a wound roll of 6. Say... rending lite.

Avatar 720 wrote:I ran the maths, and statistically, 10 DAs with a Bladestorm Exarch and a Farseer with Guide and Doom (and Stones, of course) ends up dealing 9 rending and 8.5 normal wounds to a T4 model, if they re-roll failed hits and re-roll all wounds that did not rend..

I happen to think rending if a fine idea.
You gave an excellent analysis of how effective rending weapons would be in an ideal situation. However I disagree with you that you think its OP.
Edit : Comparing avengers to purifiers may be a bad example.

How is it that fire dragons are considered just fine yet rending avengers are considered over the top?
In the example above you could have bought nearly 2 full squads of those dragons, as they don't need the farseer nor exarch to be effective.
Fire dragons are a great comparison as they fit the eldar model -- deadly close up and fairly weak in assault. After fire dragons take their one shot, how often to they live to see another turn? I play with 3 squads of them and their almost always killed/assaulted the turn after they come out.
This would make avengers would be the same way -- deadly up close but cleaned off after their alpha strike.

Shrike325 wrote:Problem with bumping them to S5 on base guns is that's the only thing that makes Tau worth taking.
If you up Guardians to be RF 24", S5 AP5, you have a Fire Warrior for about 1/2 the cost, that doesn't get steamrolled as badly in CC.

Respectfully, you have never seen guardians in assault. About the only thing they can steamroll in assault are tau. Point for point guard outnumber the guardians so much they can't hold a candle to them.

Firedragons are a specilist infantry unit. Of course they are good at what they do.

Dire Avengers and Guardians are supposed to be the anti-infantry of an Eldar force. Maybe increase the RoF of all Shuriken weapons by 1.

Grakmar wrote:Well, they definitely need something. Personally, I'd like to see all Shuriken Weapons become AP1. That'd make Eldar a natural check on all the SM spam.

On a more balanced note: Make them rapid fire 24", and increase them to S5.

Thats even worse then giving them rending.

And Ninja stars won't ever qualify for Str5(at least the handheld ones)

leave Str5 to the Tau(they need it)

Shrike325 wrote:Problem with bumping them to S5 on base guns is that's the only thing that makes Tau worth taking.

If you up Guardians to be RF 24", S5 AP5, you have a Fire Warrior for about 1/2 the cost, that doesn't get steamrolled as badly in CC.

I doubt that sucky firewarriors with their pulserifles are what makes tau worth taking.
+6inch range for both the normal shuriken catapult and the dire avenger variant would help.
All other problems should be solved by lowering the pointscost/ buffing the units directly trough new abilities or whatever.

Add TL? or a comparable re-roll ability?
I don't know much about eldar, only seen one army of them, but considering their "best in the universe" attitude I would imagine the eldar, above any other army, would focus on not wasting fire and actually hitting their target.
Most shooty armies out there either make up for their BS by having higher S weapons than normal (tau) or more shots that normal (ork) or cause more saves than normal (guard).
But I can't at present think of an army that focuses on "we won't miss, so we don't need to have redundant firepower" especially since the eldar wouldn't want to waste what they have.

Maybe an increased AP, but it's annoying to have an army focused on say AP 4, when it's possible your enemies are 6+ armor or 2+ armor, so either way the additional cost for higher AP is pointless to you.

In my Eldar Codex (linked in my sig if anyone's interested), the Shuriken weapons have the following profile:

Shuriken Catapult - Range: 18", Strength: 3, Armour Piercing: 5, Assault 3.

Avenger Shuriken Catapult - Range: 18", Strength: 3, Armour Piercing: 4, Assault 3 & enemy cover saves reduced by 1.

Shuriken Cannon - Range: 24", Strength: 4, Armour Piercing: 5, Assault 6.


Shuriken Weapons would therefore have a roughly equal (if not superior) stopping power to their current incarnation against most troops, but would have the all important greater range. This also represents the fluff by emphasising rate of fire over the individual shots stopping power (compare to Boltguns for example).

Shuriken Cannons become much more versatile on account of being defensive on vehicles, the superior option for anti-infantry and not competing against other strength-6 weapons, such as the Scatter Laser. Again, this therefore has increased stopping power over the regular Shuriken Catapult and much greater rate of fire.