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How about AP4 Pinning and DA make Bladestorm Rending and Heavy 3?


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How about AP4 Pinning and DA make Bladestorm Rending and Heavy 3?

I'd really advise to stop trying to apply USR's to basic infantry weapons, personally.

Again, my suggestion for Shuriken Weapons would be this:

"In my Eldar Codex (linked in my sig if anyone's interested), the Shuriken weapons have the following profile:

Shuriken Catapult - Range: 18", Strength: 3, Armour Piercing: 5, Assault 3.

Avenger Shuriken Catapult - Range: 18", Strength: 3, Armour Piercing: 4, Assault 3 & enemy cover saves reduced by 1.

Shuriken Cannon - Range: 24", Strength: 4, Armour Piercing: 5, Assault 6.


Shuriken Weapons would therefore have a roughly equal (if not superior) stopping power to their current incarnation against most troops, but would have the all important greater range. This also represents the fluff by emphasising rate of fire over the individual shots stopping power (compare to Boltguns for example).

Shuriken Cannons become more usable on account of being defensive on vehicles, the superior option for anti-infantry and not competing against other strength-6 weapons, such as the Scatter Laser. Again, this therefore has increased stopping power over the regular Shuriken Catapult and much greater rate of fire. "

I agree with just dave. I think pinning, rending and such just aren't the right ways to fix what is a very basic weapon.

Grey Templar wrote:The difference there is that its a Special Weapon, not something the whole squad can get.

Then how about sniper rifiles? Eldar pathfinders have 2 chances to rend with each shot.
There are aslo basic troop weapons, such a genestealer claws that can rend. The point is, troops choices and rending are not strangers.

Grey Templar wrote:its also just about the only thing they have to take on Tanks and heavy infantry with. No Melta or Plasma(henchmen are for a completely different list type)

i'm not really sure of this is a valid approach.
* I would take a psycannon over a PG any day of the week.
* MGs are available on stormchickens and LR
* If the GK really wants, they can always just take a few henchmen squads as elite choices
I see where your going with that statement, but I'm not 100% with you.

Again, as was mentioned earlier, I think your idea of giving the exarch special weapons helps to solve the problem perfectly.
Bolters suck. Shuriken cats suck. Both are just ways to transport a special weapon to the game. Many players define the unit value on the cost-per special weapon delivery. This is one of the reasons IG vets are considered extremely good. Currently avengers have no special weapons, meaning all they have are the suck bolter.
* One solution is to make their bolter better (ie rending) but it seems to have a lot of highly emotional feedback from people posting in this forum.
* Another solution is to give the exarch something that can be the eqilivant of a special weapon.
If an DA exarch could have the equilivant of a PG, and guardian squads could have fusion guns, they would be a lot more effective yet still maintin the 'specialist role'
The only 'drawback' is that it would strongly encourage MSU eldar squads to maximize the amount of exarchs. Is that such a bad thing?


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TheRobotLol wrote:Grey knights? Just no. Never.

I agree. I hope that, in their wisdom, GW properly scoped the GK codex power wise for 6th edition, and when its released we will all sit back and say "oh, well that brings them in line with everyone."

We can hope right?

yes, Pathfinders are technically a Troops choice, but they are costed like an Elite choice.

There is also a world of difference between a Heavy 1 weapon, that at most can come in squads of 10 and are very expensive, and an Assault 2-3 weapon that can come in squads of 20 guys.


And yeah, I wouldn't trade my psycannons for anything, but it is hardly the insane powerhouse it gets made out to be.

at 25pts a pop, they better be awsome. Compare that to 5-10 pt Melta and Plasma on cheaper models in other codices.

"i'm not really sure of this is a valid approach.
* I would take a psycannon over a PG any day of the week.
* MGs are available on stormchickens and LR
* If the GK really wants, they can always just take a few henchmen squads as elite choices
I see where your going with that statement, but I'm not 100% with you. "

I would love the occasional PG - g'teed AP2 and 2 shots double tapping >>> rending with 4 shots against certain targets.

They can only take henchmen as Elites if they take Inquisitors as HQ, so 2 maximum. If you take coteaz you're then using Troops.

labmouse42 wrote:Again, as was mentioned earlier, I think your idea of giving the exarch special weapons helps to solve the problem perfectly.
Bolters suck. Shuriken cats suck. Both are just ways to transport a special weapon to the game. Many players define the unit value on the cost-per special weapon delivery. This is one of the reasons IG vets are considered extremely good. Currently avengers have no special weapons, meaning all they have are the suck bolter.
* One solution is to make their bolter better (ie rending) but it seems to have a lot of highly emotional feedback from people posting in this forum.
* Another solution is to give the exarch something that can be the eqilivant of a special weapon.
If an DA exarch could have the equilivant of a PG, and guardian squads could have fusion guns, they would be a lot more effective yet still maintin the 'specialist role'
The only 'drawback' is that it would strongly encourage MSU eldar squads to maximize the amount of exarchs. Is that such a bad thing?

And as I mentioned earlier, The flaw I see with seeking an Eldar equivalent or compromise for the lack of a special weapon, is that it's versatility Eldar don't look for. Guardians (of both types) have special weapons, but as an Aspect Warrior, the Dire Avenger's are meant to specialise in a particular role in warfare and that's holding ground, fighting either defensively or offensively (in equal capability) or mowing down infantry, which are all things they can do.
If you want to take out MeQ, then that's what Banshees, Shining Spears and Fire Dragons are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons).
If you want to take out vehicles or monstrous creatures, then that's what Fire Dragons or even Spears or Hawks are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons)

*This is going by intended role; obviously things are not so effective in-game, but that's due to the flaws/date of the Codex and is not something that will be fixed by changing Shuriken Weaponry, but rather an update all-together.

Giving the Exarch a single special weapon is unlikely to change much, nor is it the problem. Improve Shuriken Weapons and the problem is solved, without the need for special weapons IMHO.

Grey Templar wrote:And yeah, I wouldn't trade my psycannons for anything, but it is hardly the insane powerhouse it gets made out to be.

at 25pts a pop, they better be awsome. Compare that to 5-10 pt Melta and Plasma on cheaper models in other codices.

Yea, the trick with psycannons is when your moving their half as good, which often is less than half as effective. This is because in a game with finite turns, any turn your losing effect lower the possible effect of the weapon. Imagine it like chess. Every time you move a pawn, its lost possible effect on the game as it cannot move back. Moving psycannons is very similar.

Back on tangent -- If there was a special rule that allowed for any other aspect to be taken as troop choices, you would never see DA. Lets compare them to some.
* Striking scorpions are better as their tougher with a 3+ save and can hold their own in assault, well worth an extra 4 points a model over the DA.
* Banshees are better, as their not horribad units with support
* Fire dragons as troops ,
* Swooping hawks would be better for objective grabbing. Can you imagine hawks deep stirking every turn on objectives?
* Warp spiders for a similar reason. It would be hard to dislodge 60 warp spiders.
* Singing spears would be ... well .. ok, they would still suck as troops.
So where all the other aspects maintain their specialized effect to varying degrees (yes, scorpions have waned in power in the 5th edition FNP meta), the DA have bottomed out. Bolters just really suck in today's meta, and even bladestorm on a doomed unit is just underwhelming. I know in my army I would drop the DA in a heartbeat if I could replace them with anything more valueable. Right now I view them as a 60 point upgrade to a serpent.

The point is this -- DA (and guardians) currently suck. On the miracle of a small chance that GW employees actually get some of the ideas posted here, hopefully they can look at this thread and come up with some good ideas for solutions.

In that example, it's not so much that Dire Avengers suck, but more why wouldn't you want Elite Units as troops?

Dire Avengers are weak, but comparing them to Psycannons or specialised elite units isn't entirely fair.

Just Dave wrote:And as I mentioned earlier, The flaw I see with seeking an Eldar equivalent or compromise for the lack of a special weapon, is that it's versatility Eldar don't look for. Guardians (of both types) have special weapons, but as an Aspect Warrior, the Dire Avenger's are meant to specialise in a particular role in warfare and that's holding ground, fighting either defensively or offensively (in equal capability) or mowing down infantry, which are all things they can do.
If you want to take out MeQ, then that's what Banshees, Shining Spears and Fire Dragons are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons).
If you want to take out vehicles or monstrous creatures, then that's what Fire Dragons or even Spears or Hawks are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons)

*This is going by intended role; obviously things are not so effective in-game, but that's due to the flaws/date of the Codex and is not something that will be fixed by changing Shuriken Weaponry, but rather an update all-together.

Giving the Exarch a single special weapon is unlikely to change much, nor is it the problem. Improve Shuriken Weapons and the problem is solved, without the need for special weapons IMHO.

JustDave, sorry I did not mean to ignore you posts.

In order to keep the versatility, you would need to have the special weapon fill the role of what the unit is designed for. For example, fire dragons get a fire pike (and a heavy flamer, wtf?). Swooping hawks get a more powerful flashlight. In the case of DA exarch, I can see the exarch getting an assault 8 weapon or something like that. Basically something that would give enough shots out to balance the DA out yet keep them still profiled as anti-infantry.

I was running the numbers with your proposed cats. Tweaking their STR from 4 to 3 has a number of side effects. STR in this game has a linear effect vs Toughness/Armor in 40k. Tweaking a value up or lower by one can have dramatic effects when applied to a set of targets (psybolt ammo comes to mind, cough cough) By lowering the STR and increasing the shooting, you still get 1 wound per hitting cat vs MEQ. Its slightly more effective vs T3 troops, but falls off a cliff when wounding T5. That would make cats useless vs bikers or other targets they are currently decent against. Just making them poisoned would do better IMHO.

I'm also not sold on the AP4 for avengers. If people actually played other armies other than MEQ, it would be great -- but go to any tournament and 70%-90% of the players are MEQ. I'll grant that occassionally you see a lot of zenos or IG, but for the most part MEQ is whats out there. So paying a premium for a weapon that's good vs 30%-10% of your opponents is just bad.

Now, I do like your ideas for getting outside the box. Instead of just tweaking around with rules like 'rending' your really pushing for new throughs -- which is a good thing IMHO.


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Just Dave wrote:In that example, it's not so much that Dire Avengers suck, but more why wouldn't you want Elite Units as troops?

Dire Avengers are weak, but comparing them to Psycannons or specialised elite units isn't entirely fair.

Heck, we can look at a broad number of troop choices that people actually want to take.
* Ork Boyz
* Grey Hunters
* IG vets
* GK henchmen/purifiers/.... well lets just say GK and that covers it.
* BA assault squads
Does it not make sense that all troop choices should be desirable?
Saying 'Well, DA should suck because their troops" does not seem a valid answer. Making them desirable does.

(oh, as a side note, a few of those examples were fast attack as well. Not to nit-pick, I just want to make sure you knew i was not only picking elites, I was thinking of the other aspects)

labmouse42 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:And as I mentioned earlier, The flaw I see with seeking an Eldar equivalent or compromise for the lack of a special weapon, is that it's versatility Eldar don't look for. Guardians (of both types) have special weapons, but as an Aspect Warrior, the Dire Avenger's are meant to specialise in a particular role in warfare and that's holding ground, fighting either defensively or offensively (in equal capability) or mowing down infantry, which are all things they can do.
If you want to take out MeQ, then that's what Banshees, Shining Spears and Fire Dragons are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons).
If you want to take out vehicles or monstrous creatures, then that's what Fire Dragons or even Spears or Hawks are for* (as well as all the sources of heavy weapons)

*This is going by intended role; obviously things are not so effective in-game, but that's due to the flaws/date of the Codex and is not something that will be fixed by changing Shuriken Weaponry, but rather an update all-together.

Giving the Exarch a single special weapon is unlikely to change much, nor is it the problem. Improve Shuriken Weapons and the problem is solved, without the need for special weapons IMHO.

JustDave, sorry I did not mean to ignore you posts.

In order to keep the versatility, you would need to have the special weapon fill the role of what the unit is designed for. For example, fire dragons get a fire pike (and a heavy flamer, wtf?). Swooping hawks get a more powerful flashlight. In the case of DA exarch, I can see the exarch getting an assault 8 weapon or something like that. Basically something that would give enough shots out to balance the DA out yet keep them still profiled as anti-infantry.

I was running the numbers with your proposed cats. Tweaking their STR from 4 to 3 has a number of side effects. STR in this game has a linear effect vs Toughness/Armor in 40k. Tweaking a value up or lower by one can have dramatic effects when applied to a set of targets (psybolt ammo comes to mind, cough cough) By lowering the STR and increasing the shooting, you still get 1 wound per hitting cat vs MEQ. Its slightly more effective vs T3 troops, but falls off a cliff when wounding T5. That would make cats useless vs bikers or other targets they are currently decent against. Just making them poisoned would do better IMHO.

I'm also not sold on the AP4 for avengers. If people actually played other armies other than MEQ, it would be great -- but go to any tournament and 70%-90% of the players are MEQ. I'll grant that occassionally you see a lot of zenos or IG, but for the most part MEQ is whats out there. So paying a premium for a weapon that's good vs 30%-10% of your opponents is just bad.

Now, I do like your ideas for getting outside the box. Instead of just tweaking around with rules like 'rending' your really pushing for new throughs -- which is a good thing IMHO.

No worries man, better late than never, eh?

But they have an assault 4 weapon and bladestorm; assault 8 is A LOT.

They can only reasonably be so powerful while remaining a standard troop choice, as troop's are rarely that good a choice. It's only a small tweak - if one at all, i.e. not a points drop - that's really needed to make Dire Avengers better IMHO.
Str 3 is better against infantry, other than T5, but that's only a 0.06 difference per model, against something they're not exactly decent against as it is IMHO.

I'd say poisoned is arguably off-limits as a result of it being too similar to the Dark Eldar, whilst Rending is too powerful.

As for my suggestion for AP4, it's not for this that the Dire Avengers pay for (in my 'dex at least); they gain more from the all-round increased increased stats and abilities, CCW & BP and cover negation. I'd say that's worth 4pts, no?
I agree about the prevalence of MeQ, but short of increased RoF, there's not really much you can do about it. I'd argue reducing cover saves is enough.

Maybe my proposed changes may only work in the right context, because whilst Dire Avengers only become marginally better against 3+ with the weapon upgrade, in the context of these changes (my Codex) there's a lot of other AP3 options...



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labmouse42 wrote:Heck, we can look at a broad number of troop choices that people actually want to take.
* Ork Boyz
* Grey Hunters
* IG vets
* GK henchmen/purifiers/.... well lets just say GK and that covers it.
* BA assault squads
Does it not make sense that all troop choices should be desirable?
Saying 'Well, DA should suck because their troops" does not seem a valid answer. Making them desirable does.

(oh, as a side note, a few of those examples were fast attack as well. Not to nit-pick, I just want to make sure you knew i was not only picking elites, I was thinking of the other aspects)

I meant elites as in-terms of abilities, rather than FoC, but yeah...

I'm not saying DA should suck, I'm suggesting they're not that weak and nor should they be that powerful IMHO.
I agree troops should be desirable, and they largely are, but they aren't supposed to have the greatest damage output on account of being troops; this is negated by a low points cost or other abilities.
8 bladestorming Dire Avengers (with the Str3 catapults) would take out 10 Guardsmen (edit: maths wrong)! Thats for less than 120pts and more than Scatter-laser War Walkers. That's a good damage output, whilst being at 18" and other abilities. Note: few things are expected to make their points back immediately or in such a simple manner, but I believe it can demonstrate that Dire Avengers can work as anti-infantry.

I want... different type of shuriken ammos....

Rending type ( but count as heavy 1 )
Monocular type ( increase range by 6" )

Just Dave: Bladestorm is +1 shot per shuri-weapon, not +100% shots

Grey Templar: you seem to be referring to Dire Avengers as if they are the standard troop choice for Eldar. They are not. They are the GK equivalent of Terminators, and Terminators aren't carrying Bolters, they're carrying fancy Bolters (and force weapons).

Personally I still think the one point penalty to any saves is an elegant solution. Granted they'd still need to be 18" range to be worth a damned, but with this they are an increased threat to everything (decreased to IG and Guardians, of course).

That, however, still doesn't solve the problem that Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers are basically copy-pastes and that one unit will obsolete the other.
Of course, the service pack for that is to make Dire Avengers catapults deadlier, remove penalty from Bladestorm but make it slightly weaker, alter Defend to offer more shooting benefits. Give Guardians more weapon options and give Guardians more items (such as webways, plasma shields, etc).

labmouse42 wrote:Heck, we can look at a broad number of troop choices that people actually want to take.
* Ork Boyz
* Grey Hunters
* IG vets
* GK henchmen/purifiers/.... well lets just say GK and that covers it.
* BA assault squads
Does it not make sense that all troop choices should be desirable?
Saying 'Well, DA should suck because their troops" does not seem a valid answer. Making them desirable does.

(oh, as a side note, a few of those examples were fast attack as well. Not to nit-pick, I just want to make sure you knew i was not only picking elites, I was thinking of the other aspects)

I'd like to point out that Boyz are the only one in that list that are taken for their own merits, rather than as a special weapon delivery system and/or Razorback tax.

Mahtamori wrote:Just Dave: Bladestorm is +1 shot per shuri-weapon, not +100% shots

Grey Templar: you seem to be referring to Dire Avengers as if they are the standard troop choice for Eldar. They are not. They are the GK equivalent of Terminators, and Terminators aren't carrying Bolters, they're carrying fancy Bolters (and force weapons).

Personally I still think the one point penalty to any saves is an elegant solution. Granted they'd still need to be 18" range to be worth a damned, but with this they are an increased threat to everything (decreased to IG and Guardians, of course).

Fluffwise, DA are the standard troop choice for the Eldar.

Guardians are civilians pressed into service because there is a need. Dire Avengers are proper soldiers.





Anyway, like I said earlier, the best fix for this is to give the DA Exarch the option to purchase some specialized pistols.

Maybe as follows,

Fusion Pistol---15 pts
Fire Pistol(Str3 Ap5 flamer pistol)---10 pts

Guardians are different in that they can get heavy weapons instead of special weapons.

Both Troops choices would have a place, delivery of Heavy and Special weapons. But in the true Eldar fashion they would be specilized in a specific role.

Grey Templar wrote:
Fluffwise, DA are the standard troop choice for the Eldar.

Guardians are civilians pressed into service because there is a need. Dire Avengers are proper soldiers.

Because there aren't enough Dire Avengers on any craftworld (sans Biel-tan) to make up an entire army. It's hard to call them the standard army when they're out numbered by their militia 100 to 1.

Just give Dire Avengers some manner of cover negation, or the ability to go full defensive/offensive with portable cover/LoS blocking.

Think like DoW2 where the guardians can setup defensive barrier shields to use as cover. Now have Dire avengers be able to do, and have cover negation.

Grey Templar wrote:Anyway, like I said earlier, the best fix for this is to give the DA Exarch the option to purchase some specialized pistols.

Maybe as follows,

Fusion Pistol---15 pts
Fire Pistol(Str3 Ap5 flamer pistol)---10 pts

Guardians are different in that they can get heavy weapons instead of special weapons.

Both Troops choices would have a place, delivery of Heavy and Special weapons. But in the true Eldar fashion they would be specilized in a specific role.

Personally, I disagree.
A single Fusion Pistol (even at BS5) isn't really worth it IMHO, whilst the Fire Pistol is arguably weaker - and definitely more short-ranged - than the dual catapults.
Furthermore, this doesn't change things for the Guardians.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Just give Dire Avengers some manner of cover negation, or the ability to go full defensive/offensive with portable cover/LoS blocking.

Think like DoW2 where the guardians can setup defensive barrier shields to use as cover. Now have Dire avengers be able to do, and have cover negation.

Pretty good suggestions IMHO.

Mahtamori wrote:Just Dave: Bladestorm is +1 shot per shuri-weapon, not +100% shots

I had them auto-hitting... Correct it now.

The Problem is that DAs roll of anti-infantry is incomplete.

Shooting is the ONLY way that DAs can be considered Anti-Infantry as they are terrible in CC. (And yes I know they have several options like defend and Shimmer Shields but they don't have an option that improves their model removal capability; especially as their defenses do not translate to most ICs that join them)

CC abilities that DAs lack:
1. S - standard of 5+ to wound is a significant disadvantage without an ability to modify it
2. T - standard of being wounded on a 3+
3. Sv - 4+ save is lackluster for CC survivability
4. No Assult grenades - higher I is pointless if assulting
5. No Anti-Tank Grenades - 100% ineffective vs armor because of low S and no grenades
6. Ld failure means squad is dead, or effectively dead if below 50% - Exarch abilities mitigate this but do not remove its probability.

So, if DA's are not going to be able to improve their CC abilities it stands to reason that that Should get an improvement, over that of other standard troops, to allow them to stand on somewhat equal footing. And giving an extended range to their shooting isn't good enough with the above deficiencies in CC.