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@Coa

Pg 6 1st paragraph. Much of the galaxy answered to their rule. YOU stop posting false information.

Much means not all. Much of the galaxy answer to the Imperium and yet Orks have more planets then Humans.

It is just a matter of perception, much of the galaxy then belonged to the Old Ones giving their unique transportation. So there is no chance that Necrons were all over the galaxy when Old Ones beat the mall to their homeworlds.

After the war wit hthe Old Ones was over Necrons were all over the glalaxy thanks to the C'Tan. So it is only natural to say this when your forces are on great number of habitable worlds.

Now YOU start read my posts and not twist the info.

Whether you believe it possible or not doesn't matter. As there is no new fluff specifically contradicting the Necron landing force on Mars, it still happened. Mars was just unlucky and couldn't roll any pens to get rid of quantum shielding.

Harriticus wrote:No, it's not valid.
1.) Their new ships would likely be unable to reach Mars
2.) Their new ships wouldn't stand a chance against Imperial defenses
3.) There's no more C'tan on Mars, Void Dragon is a prisoner/slave of the Necrons and a Space Marine Captain could probably take him.

Despite all evidence to the contrary?

-no mention of his defeat specifically in the new codex
-techpriests still using/repairing technology via miraculous means
-none of his rumoured powers having a representation among the c'tan shard powers in the codex

Not to mention the horus heresy novels (most assuredly still cannon since horus rising was recently re-released for its anniversary) alluding strongly to the possibility that the "Dragon of Mars" is a god-like cybernetic being.

And think it through: if there was a whole and intact C'tan sitting dormant beneath Mars, wouldn't the Necrons be desperate to seek it out and shatter it like the others? To the point where they would deploy the fastest ships they have, equipped with the best defenses they could put on them, and try for a suicidal run into its lair just to establish whether it's feasible on a larger scale?

Also keep in mind that the rules downplay the fluff to an extreme degree - look at the 'nids shadow in the warp rules compared to its fluff. And remember who wrote the new fluff and how much said person tends to exaggerate in doing so.

I think the Mars story stands.

@Coa pg 10 also states they ruled the Galaxy.

Only means of transportation Necrons have now is their pre Old Ones war ships.

Wait, really? (I don't have the new dex)
They only have sublight ships? That means they are not a threat, at all.

King Pariah wrote:@Coa pg 10 also states they ruled the Galaxy.

That was brief time, before they turned against C'Tan and then before they go to sleep to avoid being destroyed by Elar.


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Frazzled wrote:

Only means of transportation Necrons have now is their pre Old Ones war ships.

Wait, really? (I don't have the new dex)
They only have sublight ships? That means they are not a threat, at all.

While this is true they are still a threat. Before they destroyed the C'Tan they were transported all over the galaxy.
There is not exact number of planets that Necrons occupy. But they number in millions...

Frazzled wrote:

Only means of transportation Necrons have now is their pre Old Ones war ships.

Wait, really? (I don't have the new dex)
They only have sublight ships? That means they are not a threat, at all.

They have the Webway now.

Brother Coa wrote:
Just reread it, I am still right. Gates are unstable at best, and with the Eldar watching Webway Necrons have little chance with them travelling across the galaxy.

The Webway seals itself, the Eldar sealed it once before, they don't do it anymore. Here's the exact quote:
"In some curious fashion, the webway can detect when its environs have been breached by a Dolmen Gate and swiftly attempts to seal off the infected spur until the danger has passed."

"Attempts" implies doesn't always succeed. And the Eldar are mentioned nowhere there. The Webway heals itself.

The Eldar are mentioned here however:
"Many Dolmen Gates were lost or abandoned during the time of the Great Sleep, and many more were destroyed by the Eldar. Those that remain grant access to but a small portion of the webway, much of that voluntarily sealed off by the Eldar to prevent further contamination."

Where, precisely, does it say the Eldar actively seal off the webway in modern times? It doesn't, they used to. Most likely at their height. However, the Necrons do use Dolmen gates to remarkable effect, implying the Eldar cannot stop them from using it regardless. You're wrong, categorically and provably so. The Necrons use the Dolmen Gates as their form of travel now, effectively enough to ensure they've wiped out two Space Marine chapters, crippled a third, and conquered hundreds of worlds.

They used C'Tan ships, it seems after they destroy them they destroyed their ships to.

The C'tan do not use ships. The C'tan never gave the Necrons ships. Find me an exact quote and page number in the whole ten paragraphs in which the C'tan are mentioned which says otherwise. Cite your sources, or cease your endless bashing of anyone who isn't your beloved Imperium.

While this is true they are still a threat. Before they destroyed the C'Tan they were transported all over the galaxy.
There is not exact number of planets that Necrons occupy. But they number in millions...

It's not true, but that's not the point I want to raise.

A lot of people are mistaking mystery for threat level. I think (excepting their horrid space combat nerf) the Necrons became remarkably more powerful now than they were before. They managed to enslave C'tan, and the Shards alone are powerful enough that the Imperium thought they were the real thing. They have the Orrery, possibly the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. They've conquered a lot of worlds, wrecked a lot of face and generally messed things up big time.

The problem is their suffering what I call "Dalek Syndrome". When too much of a Big Bad is revealed, even if that reveal shows all their most powerful guns, it lessens their apparent threat. A mysterious enemy we know nothing about is much more terrifying than one we know a lot about, even if that "a lot" includes enslaving gods and blowing up stars.

The problem with the Dolmen Gates it it limits the Necrons badly. It specifically states that Webway is a tangled, semi functioning mess and the Dolmen Gates can only access the portions the Eldar (Dark and standard flavours) aren't using. Needless to say, I suspect the Eldar are using the most functional areas...

There may be millions of Necron worlds, but how many of those are stranded without a Doleman Gate, or as the one mentioned in the Codex is, stuck with a useless chunk of Webway? A Necron Tombworld without a Doleman gate is only a danger to anything on that world, and the Codex makes it clear the Eldar had a good try at blowing up as many of the Gates as they could. They've also had a long time to look, even assuming they did stop before the Fall and forgot in the whole 'debauched party leading to the birth of a Chaos God' thing.

As far as we know, the only thing remotely connecting the Sol System to the Webway is the Golden Throne, which got converted to the Big E's chair. If there was another access to the Webway in the Sol System it would A) Have been used instead of the Throne and B) be under such a heavy guard you litterly wouldn't be able to spit without hitting a Guardsman, Marine, Battle Titan or Cruiser.

Without any Webway access in Sol, the Mars raid can't have happened.

Which, as a big Ad Mech fan, sucks.

Dytalus wrote:
"Attempts" implies doesn't always succeed. And the Eldar are mentioned nowhere there. The Webway heals itself.

The Eldar are mentioned here however:
"Many Dolmen Gates were lost or abandoned during the time of the Great Sleep, and many more were destroyed by the Eldar. Those that remain grant access to but a small portion of the webway, much of that voluntarily sealed off by the Eldar to prevent further contamination."

Where, precisely, does it say the Eldar actively seal off the webway in modern times? It doesn't, they used to. Most likely at their height. However, the Necrons do use Dolmen gates to remarkable effect, implying the Eldar cannot stop them from using it regardless. You're wrong, categorically and provably so. The Necrons use the Dolmen Gates as their form of travel now, effectively enough to ensure they've wiped out two Space Marine chapters, crippled a third, and conquered hundreds of worlds

The text also say: "The remaining Dolmen Gates only grant access to only a small portion of the Webway with much of the network being sealed by the Eldar to prevent further contamination." Meaning that they are watching and they are sealing it out, that will doom the Necrons to isolation in the end.

They used C'Tan ships, it seems after they destroy them they destroyed their ships to.

The C'tan do not use ships. The C'tan never gave the Necrons ships. Find me an exact quote and page number in the whole ten paragraphs in which the C'tan are mentioned which says otherwise. Cite your sources, or cease your endless bashing of anyone who isn't your beloved Imperium.

No, they just use "colossal bio-furnaces" that "caste the shadow on Necron dynasties" ( sound like landing of a spacecraft to me ). Entire new Necron fluff was written as a legend, C"tan were probably highly advanced alien race that lacked numbers to defeat Old Ones. And they get them by acquiring Necrontyr. And what Imperium has to do with this? You are the only one mentioning it.

"Even in life, the Necrontyr civilisation was one of strict protocol and process, governed by nobles whose rule was absolute. This rigid heirarchy became more entrenched during the transition from flesh to machine, and the awakening Necron civilisation is far more complex and stratified than THE ONE THAT ONCE RULED THE GALAXY" - Necron Codex pg. 10

The part in all caps when read with the rest, is a very strong implication that when in flesh they ruled the galaxy.

And nice misquotes Coa.

"Howsoever contact occurred, the shadow of the C'tan fell over the oldest dynasties first." - Necron Codex pg. 9 under Coming of the C'tan

"Colossal bio-furnaces roared day and night, consuming weak-bodied flesh and replacing it with enduring forms living metal." -Necron Codex, page 10 under Biotransference

Brother Coa wrote:

Dytalus wrote:
"Attempts" implies doesn't always succeed. And the Eldar are mentioned nowhere there. The Webway heals itself.

The Eldar are mentioned here however:
"Many Dolmen Gates were lost or abandoned during the time of the Great Sleep, and many more were destroyed by the Eldar. Those that remain grant access to but a small portion of the webway, much of that voluntarily sealed off by the Eldar to prevent further contamination."

Where, precisely, does it say the Eldar actively seal off the webway in modern times? It doesn't, they used to. Most likely at their height. However, the Necrons do use Dolmen gates to remarkable effect, implying the Eldar cannot stop them from using it regardless. You're wrong, categorically and provably so. The Necrons use the Dolmen Gates as their form of travel now, effectively enough to ensure they've wiped out two Space Marine chapters, crippled a third, and conquered hundreds of worlds

The text also say: "The remaining Dolmen Gates only grant access to only a small portion of the Webway with much of the network being sealed by the Eldar to prevent further contamination." Meaning that they are watching and they are sealing it out, that will doom the Necrons to isolation in the end.

No, your quote doesn't exist. It's a deliberate corruption of mine (assuming yours is in the English language, and since English isn't your first language (which I think I remember you saying, I might be mistaken), it's possible it's not). There is no "being" which would make it present tense continuative, there is only a "sealed", past tense.

The C'tan do not use ships. The C'tan never gave the Necrons ships. Find me an exact quote and page number in the whole ten paragraphs in which the C'tan are mentioned which says otherwise. Cite your sources, or cease your endless bashing of anyone who isn't your beloved Imperium.

No, they just use "colossal bio-furnaces" that "caste the shadow on Necron dynasties" ( sound like landing of a spacecraft to me ). Entire new Necron fluff was written as a legend, C"tan were probably highly advanced alien race that lacked numbers to defeat Old Ones. And they get them by acquiring Necrontyr. And what Imperium has to do with this? You are the only one mentioning it.

Pariah has it right. Yours is a misquote. The "shadow" is metaphorical, to imply the C'tan took over the Necron dynasties. Bio furnaces are exactly that, furnaces which burn up the Necrontyr bodies to be replaced by metal, and feed the flesh to the C'tan.

EDIT: For quote tag herp derp.

Brother Coa wrote:
...if you reread it you would read that Eldar almost imediatally close the holes in Webway that Necrons create.

The Eldar have nothing to do with the closing of the portals, the webway itself attempts to seal off the section temporarily. All this means is that a Phaeron cannot send endless wave after wave through the Gate, and he must send as many troops through as quickly as possible before the portal is sealed, if that section of the webway is capable of doing so.

Brother Coa wrote:And that many were destroyed so the Necron can only access very limited parts of the Webway.

The Dolmen Gate entry verbatim:

Necron Codex wrote:
In the closing years of the War in Heaven, the tides began to shift when the Necrons finally gained access to the webway. The C'tan know as Nyadra'zatha, the Burning One, had long desired to carry his eldritch fires into that space beyond space, and so showed the Necrons how to breach its boundaries. Through a series of living stone portals known as the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons were finally able to turn the Old Ones' greatest weapon against them, vastly accelerating the end of the War in Heaven.

The portals offered by the Dolmen Gates are neither so stable, nor so controllable as the naturally occurring entrances to the webway. Indeed, in some curious fashion, the webway can detect when its environs have been breached by a Dolmen Gate and swiftly attempts to seal off the infected spur until the danger has passed. So, Necrons entering the webway must reach their destination quickly, lest the network itself bring about their destruction.

Aeons have passed since those times. The Old Ones are gone, and the webway itself has become a tangled and broken labyrinth. Many Dolmen Gates were lost or abandoned during the time of the Great Sleep, and many more were destroyed by the Eldar. Those that remain grant access to but a small portion of the webway, much of that voluntarily sealed off by the Eldar to prevent further contamination. Yet the webway is immeasurably vast, and even these sundered skeins allow the Necrons a mode of travel that far outpaces the younger races. It is well that it is so. As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of Warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, dooming them to isolation.

The Eldar themselves can only use an incredibly small portion of the webway, due to destroyed gates and the encroaching Warp infections. Indeed, they rarely travel outside of the channels kept clear between Craftworlds. The Eldar have very little control of the webway, nor do they police the vast majority of it, it simply being a gift passed down to them by the extinct Old Ones, who were far more powerful than the Eldar themselves. If anything, the Necrons have just as much access to the webway as the Eldar, perhaps even more (albeit different parts), as they are a non-psyker race, and thus unaffected by Warp-induced madness and similar, unless the Warp has a physical presence. The only limitation is the time at which they will open, the duration thereof, and when and how long the section of the webway will remain closed once sealed.

Brother Coa wrote:There is no mention that their empire was galaxy spanning. it was probably more like the Tau Empire.

They are clearly listed at least a dozen times as having ruled the galaxy, which would be exceedingly difficult if you occupied only a tiny portion of said galaxy.

[quote=King Pariah
And nice misquotes Coa.

"Howsoever contact occurred, the shadow of the C'tan fell over the oldest dynasties first." - Necron Codex pg. 9 under Coming of the C'tan

"Colossal bio-furnaces roared day and night, consuming weak-bodied flesh and replacing it with enduring forms living metal." -Necron Codex, page 10 under Biotransference

Brother Coa wrote:

King Pariah wrote:
And nice misquotes Coa.

"Howsoever contact occurred, the shadow of the C'tan fell over the oldest dynasties first." - Necron Codex pg. 9 under Coming of the C'tan

"Colossal bio-furnaces roared day and night, consuming weak-bodied flesh and replacing it with enduring forms living metal." -Necron Codex, page 10 under Biotransference

There are not misquotes, this is exactly on what I mean. " the shadow of the C'tan fell over the oldest dynasties first." means that C'Tan ships probably contacted the oldest dynasties first and "Colossal bio-furnaces roared day and night" probably again refers to the ships, now flying over Necron worlds and turning their people into Necrons as we know them today. Like I said, Necron ancient history in their new codex is written more like a legend then mere historical article.

They were misquotes. You took two of them and slammed them together to prove your point.

You are literally the only person who thinks bio-furnaces are ships, and who thinks "the shadow of the C'tan" means ships as opposed to a metaphor (seriously, it's one of the most common metaphors used in writing to the point that it's a cliche. How do you not know it). The C'tan were energy beings until the Necrons gave them living metal bodies, they didn't need ships.

Then how did they transfer Necrons all across the galaxy?
Space magic?

I cant stop laughing at Coa

Of course it was space magic. Just like the warp and the Emperor. And the Eldar and Orks. Everything here appens because of space magic.

Then that is even more of a drawback for Necrons. They in fact never had fast FTL ships, I am now even more depressed....

So the reason why they went to sleep was because there was no way to reinforce attacked planets from Eldar. With Dolmen Gates being unreliable and all Silent King decided to put them all to sleep and sort it all out later...

That means that if remaining Dolmen Gates fall to time or are destroyed by Eldar Necrons will be forever isolated on their wolrds and would be picked up easily.
So my point stand - Mars rade is not canonical anymore.

Brother Coa wrote:Then that is even more of a drawback for Necrons. They in fact never had fast FTL ships, I am now even more depressed....

So the reason why they went to sleep was because there was no way to reinforce attacked planets from Eldar. With Dolmen Gates being unreliable and all Silent King decided to put them all to sleep and sort it all out later...

Necrons can teleport across the galaxy (or at least, they can teleport really frikkin far). Reinforcing is easy for them. The issue comes with attacking locations, or travelling to tombs which aren't active yet.

That means that if remaining Dolmen Gates fall to time or are destroyed by Eldar Necrons will be forever isolated on their wolrds and would be picked up easily.
So my point stand - Mars rade is not canonical anymore.

That's a pretty big "if", the Eldar don't actively hunt the Necrons anymore, and they've lost their map saying where the Necrons are. Except....that one with the rangers. The blue guys, whose name I can't remember. They have pieces of the map, but still don't have the power to stop the Necrons anymore. Especially now that they're the only ones actively hunting down Necrons.

The Mars raid hasn't been directly contradicted, so it's still canonical. It's conceivable there's a Webway path into the Solar System (actually, we know there is) and since the Necrons don't need natural webway gates to travel they can just open up one anywhere in Sol they want. So the Mars attack could still have happened.

I had always thought the Necrons had some secret plan that would bring the victory through some secret transportation or somthing directly into homeworlds like terra and mars, after all they were around long before humans so they might have had necrons already on the planets but with the new codex I have a feeling they don't have some awesome plan up their sleeves.

Dytalus wrote:
Necrons can teleport across the galaxy (or at least, they can teleport really frikkin far). Reinforcing is easy for them. The issue comes with attacking locations, or travelling to tombs which aren't active yet.

Codex only mention teleportation in Tomb World. Nothing that they can teleport troops where they want in the entire galaxy.

The power of the necrons did NOT change with the new codex, their organisation did. They're still just as advanced and their technology is just as powerful. People seem to misinterpret this. The world engine, perhaps the most powerful Ship known in the 40k universe was a necron Ship. The only thing downgraded powerwise with the newcrons is the we Will be back roll and the armour save, which is only reflected ingame because of balance issues. And the C'tan shards, another in-game balance and fluff issue. Having a living God on the table just doesnt work. The only reason they are not as big a threat now is because they are not a unified race.


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Brother Coa wrote:

Dytalus wrote:
Necrons can teleport across the galaxy (or at least, they can teleport really frikkin far). Reinforcing is easy for them. The issue comes with attacking locations, or travelling to tombs which aren't active yet.

Codex only mention teleportation in Tomb World. Nothing that they can teleport troops where they want in the entire galaxy.

Dimensional portals in the monoliths. Nuff Said. Also, just because the phase out rule isnt in play anymore doesnt mean they are not capable of such a feat in the fluff. It was, after all, a balancing change and not a fluff one. The new deep strike fules for the deathmarks for example dont use the same teleporting device as terminators for example. They teleport in a different way, whos not to say that the millions and millions of years of technological avantage they have over the rest of the races hasn't given them the ability to teleport across starsystems. Not to mention, they dont suffer from the limitations of flesh.


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Another thing. The OP mentioned that the Necrons last their FTL travel which is not true. The text clearly says that some sections were sealed of to stop further contamination of the necrons within the webway. It says that the dolmen gates are still in use and allow the necrons to travel faster than the younger races. Please read it properly before claiming stuff like this.

put up a vote!

Coa, you don't have a leg to stand on here. You have clearly misinterpreted what was written and have been proved wrong. Just admit that you made a mistake and everyone can move on. This doesn't have to turn into a thing. Just man up and let it go.

Ulthanashville wrote:

Harriticus wrote:No, it's not valid.
1.) Their new ships would likely be unable to reach Mars
2.) Their new ships wouldn't stand a chance against Imperial defenses
3.) There's no more C'tan on Mars, Void Dragon is a prisoner/slave of the Necrons and a Space Marine Captain could probably take him.

Despite all evidence to the contrary?

-no mention of his defeat specifically in the new codex
-techpriests still using/repairing technology via miraculous means
-none of his rumoured powers having a representation among the c'tan shard powers in the codex

Not to mention the horus heresy novels (most assuredly still cannon since horus rising was recently re-released for its anniversary) alluding strongly to the possibility that the "Dragon of Mars" is a god-like cybernetic being.

And think it through: if there was a whole and intact C'tan sitting dormant beneath Mars, wouldn't the Necrons be desperate to seek it out and shatter it like the others? To the point where they would deploy the fastest ships they have, equipped with the best defenses they could put on them, and try for a suicidal run into its lair just to establish whether it's feasible on a larger scale?

Also keep in mind that the rules downplay the fluff to an extreme degree - look at the 'nids shadow in the warp rules compared to its fluff. And remember who wrote the new fluff and how much said person tends to exaggerate in doing so.

I think the Mars story stands.

The latest White Dwarf listed Void Dragon among the C'tan Shards. He's a pitiful slave to some Dynasty.

Mars raie still stand, it didn't happened. If Necron capital ship can have it's shields destroyed by one salvo from Space Marine Battle Barge then 5 light cruiser don't stand a chance against Segmentum Solar fleet.

And I am still with my opinion that Necrons rarely use Gates but instead use slow FTL ships. And that there is more to the C'Tan then we can see it....


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Thatguy91 wrote:
Dimensional portals in the monoliths. Nuff Said. Also, just because the phase out rule isnt in play anymore doesnt mean they are not capable of such a feat in the fluff. It was, after all, a balancing change and not a fluff one. The new deep strike fules for the deathmarks for example dont use the same teleporting device as terminators for example. They teleport in a different way, whos not to say that the millions and millions of years of technological avantage they have over the rest of the races hasn't given them the ability to teleport across starsystems. Not to mention, they dont suffer from the limitations of flesh.

I read about it, it is just on a level of a planet, not solar years teleport level. Necrons still have to go trough space to actually use them.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Coa, you don't have a leg to stand on here. You have clearly misinterpreted what was written and have been proved wrong. Just admit that you made a mistake and everyone can move on. This doesn't have to turn into a thing. Just man up and let it go.

You know, I get this feeling, Like, I've been through this before...

Oh, I have
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/420512.page

While I disagree with Coa and actually completely believe the necrons still have near light speeds as shown in the fluff by multiple sources that have yet to be contradicted (both new and old)

The necrons have always had slow moving stasis ships. "Using stasis-crypts and slow burning torch ships, clad in living metal to resist the age-long journeys through the void, they began to colonize distant planets. Sometime into their slow expansion, the Necrontyr encountered the Old Ones." (p.24, Codex: Necrons, 3rd ed.)

While at the same time it would seem it was the C'tan who gave them their faster ships."Armed with weapons of god-like power and ships that could cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye the Necrontyr stood ready to begin their war anew." (p.25, Codex: Necrons, 3rd ed.)

This is something necrons can STILL do with their portal and phase technology. In fact when a necron tomb is destroyed the necrons protocols are to phase out of that tomb and go to the next closest functioning tomb.Which can be entire systems away.(Hammer and Anvil)

And then once again as Lord Damocles put it.
Necrons still have their ships - which although slow relative to the webway/portals/phase technolgy (this was already the case prior to the 5th ed. Codex, as per Dark Creed (pg.251)) are still capable of faster than light travel in realspace (or even if we arbitrarily ignore Dark Creed (pg.109) for some absurd reason, near light speeds, as per Hammer and Anvil (pg.232))..

I'm going to chime in with a question if you don't mind.

Any idea what the speed of the Tyranid Hive fleets are?

Because the Silent King met one in intergalactic space
and then proceeded to rush back to try and rally the Necrons
against this threat. He also arrived back round the same time some of the fleets were arriving.

So either they were relatively close to this galaxy that traveling slower than light didn't matter (odd that he was gone for 60million years) or the Silent King travelled out slowly and kicked the Inertia-less drive in when he finally got over his mopping.