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Those naked predators can be great. It's all in how you set up your army. I max out my elites and only have 1 heavy choice so a naked predator can be worth it.

The argument about naked predators versus rifleman dreads is a non-issue since they don't fight for the same slot. They work great together. Have two 60pt predators in front as a wall and you can fit 3 rifle mans behind them for cover. The dreads guns should be able to see over the predators and now armies have to go through armor 13 to get to the armor 12. It isn't easy for str 7-8 weapons to get through those armor 13 predators.

I found it isn't difficult to get side shots on enemy armor with the naked predator. It's only 60pts and not a huge waste if it dies. Leave it unsupported on an extreme flank as you castle in the other flank. You can get some side shots off and it will usually take an extra ordinary amount of firepower to stop it, relative to it's 60pt cost. Usually a 60pt unit can be handled easier than an armor 13 predator.

Define it's roll in your army. Use them to exclusively hunt down enemy land speeders or other low armor targets. During the game you can dedicate 60pts to take down those 90pt typhoons. Ordinarily you would have to dedicate a 120pt predator with lascanons, but now your resource allocation is more efficient and those extra 60pts can be used elsewhere. Naked predators will win the shooting war with typhoons.

As long as you have the lascannons elsewhere in your list (elite land raider, troops, razorbacks), then I think it is better to spend the last 120pts on two naked predators than one auto/las predator, especially for space marines. Blood Angels might be different.

Iranna wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Then I'm glad to have made you specify what you were referring to.

Excellent, I'm glad that I could have cleared that up for you - even if it was quite simple to understand.

If you would have paid attention to what has been referenced by the OP and by me, it might just have been, but when you decided not to...

Iranna wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

If you're getting cover for your dread in your opponent's shooting phase, then you would have had to already put your dread into cover in your movement phase, thereby giving your enemies coversaves and limiting the dreads effectiveness. Otherwise, you're still limiting your fileds of fire for your dread against any other target than the one it does have clear LOS to.

Or deploy it in cover? Also, just because my Dreadnought is in cover does not mean that my opponent will get cover saves.

The enemy can jusy as easily deploy in cover, or move into cover.

Iranna wrote:

Project2501 wrote:
And quite possibly just as limited, while being over twice the price of a single naked pred.

Quite possibly. However, you get an additional 2 shots. That are twin-linked. That may be why they are the go-to choice for light AT than naked predators.

Iranna.

Clearly not true for everyone, and for good reason(s).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:If your['re] comfortable wasting that heavy support slot on a single autocannon, when you can get 2 lascannons along side it, then fine. It is a general consensus among 40k players that auto/las predators are a good choice, and they are a better choice than sponson-less predators

Agreed.

That sounds an awful lot like your agreeing with me there bromego.

You stated what the general consensus among 40k players is believed to be by you. I agreed with your statement. I agreed that I also believe that what you wrote is the current general consensus among 40k players, nothing more. Please try to understand what it is you are actually typing in the future to avoid confusing yourself any further.

I actually am talking about a BA army, HOWEVER since I have been playing BA since 2nd edition I dont field a meta BA army. I have the whole 2nd company to pick from (6tacticals, 2 devs, 2 assault) 2 dreads, predators speeders bikes. I also have tons of scouts and termies. I do not field a jump pack assault army, and own no land raiders, it typically tends to be more vanilla marine style. Its always nice to take apart someone meta army that they stole the list from online but have no clue in applicable tactics, with vanilla marines.

~Lion~

Project2501 wrote: If you would have paid attention to what has been referenced by the OP and by me, it might just have been, but when you decided not to...

Except that, it was simple? I was making a completely different point. I was not continuing what you two were saying.

Project2501 wrote:

The enemy can jusy as easily deploy in cover, or move into cover.

It's spelt "just" btw

That they can you are quite correct.

Project2501 wrote:

Clearly not true for everyone, and for good reason(s).

Well, I have seen many a battle report on this very website with Vanilla Space Marine lists including 2+ Rifleman Dreadnoughts. I can't recall seeing any such reports detailing the use of naked predators. Ergo, rifleman dreadnoughts seem to be the dominant choice. One would imagine this would be because they are more effective than naked predators.

Iranna.

I dont have riflemen dreads as mine are metal from 2nd edition. 2nd edition dreads could not have these dual AC's.
That was back when a Lascannon meant death to armor. and devastators had targeters giving them plus one to his. Can you imagine 4 devastators with lascannons and a 2+ to hit?!?!?!?!? Anyway i wont go off on my 2nd edition (back in my day) tangent.

Iranna wrote:

Project2501 wrote: If you would have paid attention to what has been referenced by the OP and by me, it might just have been, but when you decided not to...

Except that, it was simple? I was making a completely different point. I was not continuing what you two were saying.

Which is exactly why specification was necessary. When you decide to go off on a tangent, what else is there to expect?

Iranna wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

The enemy can jusy as easily deploy in cover, or move into cover.

It's spelt "just" btw

Beaten to the edit button! I'd blame my adult male sized thumbs versus my phone's 'keyboard', but it is what it is, my mistake.

Iranna wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Clearly not true for everyone, and for good reason(s).

Well, I have seen many a battle report on this very website with Vanilla Space Marine lists including 2+ Rifleman Dreadnoughts. I can't recall seeing any such reports detailing the use of naked predators. Ergo, rifleman dreadnoughts seem to be the dominant choice. One would imagine this would be because they are more effective than naked predators.

Iranna.

You honestly believe that everyone that plays WH40k posts online, on this forum and/or battlereports? Interesting.

Personal attacks are not allowed on this site.

~Manchu

Personal attacks are not allowed on this site.

~Manchu

What a mockery of a thread.

Whilst I can understand the use of a naked pred, I prefer the AC/LAS sponsons myself. I get more bang out of it, simple. I'm happy to pay the price for those sponsons. If I lose a weapon, I still have another two, I still have options, and can still be mobile terrain if I really need it

...and that's just my opinion. I think they both have their uses- I prefer one, and I can see why one is more popular than the other.

off-topic personal argument edited out. -Mannahnin

Drop it. -Mannahnin

Off topic. -Mannahnin

Apparently prodject thinks everyone who disagrees posts.. interesting.

Draigo wrote:Apparently prodject thinks everyone who disagrees posts.. interesting.

Considering I neither posted nor implied that, I find your comment bizarre.

Project2501 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Apparently prodject thinks everyone who disagrees posts.. interesting.

Considering I neither posted nor implied that, I find your comment bizarre.

That cause you didn't read your own post of all gamers posting their findings and games. Maybe should be less subtle next time. Naked predators are not a common thing I have seen either in sm lists. I have played in tournaments in Colorado, Florida, Georgia, and California. So I would find myself agreeing with the other side on this that a naked pred is not all that popular.

Off topic.-Mannahnin

Personal attacks are not allowed on this site.

~Manchu

Draigo wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Apparently prodject thinks everyone who disagrees posts.. interesting.

Considering I neither posted nor implied that, I find your comment bizarre.

That cause you didn't read your own post of all gamers posting their findings and games. Maybe should be less subtle next time. Naked predators are not a common thing I have seen either in sm lists. I have played in tournaments in Colorado, Florida, Georgia, and California. So I would find myself agreeing with the other side on this that a naked pred is not all that popular.

I know exactly what I've posted, and not once did I either say or post that all gamers post their findings and games or that everyone that disagrees posts.

Check for yourself.

Can everyone just calm down, this is about people who either think that naked preds are worth it or not. Why did this turn into people making attacks on other people. Can we all just calm down and remember that this is a game about toy solgers.

Kunjax96 wrote:Can everyone just calm down, this is about people who either think that naked preds are worth it or not. Why did this turn into people making attacks on other people. Can we all just calm down and remember that this is a game about toy solgers.

Wiser words were never spoken.

Back on track however, I do feel that there are much better ways to put autocannons on the table. While yes, the naked predator can do it's job - there's no denying that - I feel that a Rifleman dread can do the job much more efficiently. It may be double the points, but you get 2 autocannons which are twin-linked and are on an, arguably, sturdier platform.

Iranna.

The 60pt predator is an ok buy for armour saturation if you have the slots and pts to spare. However, the damage output of that tank is just so incredibly low that it pretty much ends up as mobile terrain. Seems a vindicator can do the same job as well as the predator, while also adding more to target saturation because it is an actual threat to the enemy and having the ability to make anything into paste. It can also fire just as well on the move as the predator.

If I had 60pts to spare and a free heavy slot, I could see myself throwing one of these in, otherwise, there are generally better options.

Iranna wrote:Back on track however, I do feel that there are much better ways to put autocannons on the table. While yes, the naked predator can do it's job - there's no denying that - I feel that a Rifleman dread can do the job much more efficiently. It may be double the points, but you get 2 autocannons which are twin-linked and are on an, arguably, sturdier platform.

In my C:SM list I run 2 dakka dreads as I really like that platform for delivery. Its easier to give the dreads cover, and they are more resilient vs blast/large blast fire as its easier to scatter off the model. For good or ill, they can asssault, and they don't get stuck in terrain on the roll of a 1.

However, I'll freely admit that the OP has me thinking of bringing an extra naked pred for my 3rd heavy slot. Instead of bringing 2 AC/LC tanks, I can bring 3 AC tanks and have 60 points to spend on something else.
* Sponsons on predators are annoying low to the ground, making it easy to either lose LoS with them, or to grant cover.
* They also put the predator into the role of a pillbox -- which is something I don't like. I like armies that can move.
* The other nice thing is by throwing an extra AV 13 target on the table your making it harder for your opponent to choose his fire . Instead of having one nice juicy 120 point tank to shoot, your giving two 60 point tanks. Who wants to waste a squad of fire dragons on a 60 point tank?
* Multiple targets means that one 'stunned' result does not take out 3 weapons for a turn.
* You can place your predators to cover more of the board, as you can take advantage of more fire lanes.
Are there perks to the AC/LC pred? Definitely. Do I like them? Heck yea! Will I replace my dakka dreads for preds? No.
But the OP has given some interesting food for thought about fielding my current preads.

Agreed with Labmouse. It's an interesting concept. The damage output would seem to be very low, but OTOH the cost is also quite low, and the durability good for the cost.

Getting cover with them should be pretty easy if needed. You can use any kind of low solid terrain or other Rhino hulls. Certainly easier than getting a pred with sponsons into cover without blocking the sponsons. And probably easier than getting cover for a Rifleman-pattern dread while keeping both arms clear. OTOH having them NOT in cover is arguably worthwhile, because AV13 is still pretty darn tough for the points, and having it out of cover makes it more likely for your opponent to waste valuable antitank fire on a cheap fire magnet.

I've rarely seen them fielded, but just being rare doesn't make them bad. Part of that is no doubt due to cost. Spending only 120 pts to field two Predator kits is a pretty spendy (in real life dollars) way to go.

Not viable for Space Wolves myself, 15 Krak Missiles will outperform everything else in HS choices

In general, yeah, for SW and BA their LF or Devs are really cheap for the firepower they put out. That being said, if your particular list has its points or its HS slots spent on something else*, 60ts is dirt cheap for an AV13 hull on the table. It's conceivably worthwhile, though I expect there'll be fewer lists in which this tank will fit.

(*: Or if, say, your concept was to build a list which was not impaired in Dawn of War missions.)

Actually paying 5 points more to make the 4 shots TL is well worth the points, SERIOUSLY.

So it is basically a choice of damage output or armor saturation really. Neither choice is obviously better than the other. And depending on your build (referring to the Generic SM codex), you may or may not need your HS slot desperately. Remember, you still have your Razorbacks for that TL Lascannon or Las/Plas - if it fits into your list of course.



On a side note, grow up Horst. No need to be excited over toy soldiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I was surprised that my opponent spent 2 turns concentrating on taking out 2 tanks with a single AC each. Surely that has some added value.
~Lion~

In all honesty, no good players will/should spend any bit of bullet shooting at naked Predators (unless they hav nothing else worthy to shoot at). I ALWAYS ignore naked predators, until maybe towards the end. So it was more on the ignorance of your opponent, rather than the value of the pred in this case. Still, naked pred are good, but not because they are bullet magnets.

Lets face it, against a good player you won't ever see back armor with a predator. and If you do manage it some will see YOUR back or side. If I played against 3 60 point predators I'd let them be, what are they gonna do, destroy a rhino

There will be roughly two damage results on a rhino per turn if 3 of them are shooting... that is NOT impressive for 180 points and they take up all 3 HS slots.

Two Autocannon Predators shooting at AV10

1.5 Pens
.5 Glances

One Autocannon/Lascannon Predator shooting at AV 10

1.68 Pens
.44 Glances

The autocannon preds only do worse as the AVs go up.

I have to agree with the OP that sponson-less Preds tend to be more survivable due to not being seen as a serious threat, and like labmouse42 stated, there are some definite advantages to not taking sponsons (moving and still shooting all your weapons, opportunity costs, etc). I like Preds and if I played Vanilla SM or BA I would take them with just the turret AC..... unfortunately for my Black Templars, a naked Pred comes in at a whopping 100 points for AC turret and 120 points for a TLLC turret. I then can take either HB sponsons for a measley 10 points or LC sponsons for 25 points. The up-front cost of a BT Pred quite literally dictates that you take sponson weapons to make the cost viable....but if the cost was 60 points like SM, I would take them naked

To each their own. I like my predator with its 3 lascannon shots. I even put chronos in it. It is gunned for. And for good reason.