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I just fielded 2 no sponson predators against an eldar player in a 2k pt match. He spent the first 2 turns shooting at them and only immobilized one.
I intend on using this fit to act as mobile cover for my rhinos following close behind and to soak up shots... seemed to work well although i have not extensively tested them out.

Anyone use this kind of predator for any tactics ?

I have used naked predators for years now. I love them. 60pts for AV13 that shoots down speeders and takes out transports (AV10&11 respectively). If the turret gets popped off, it's now mobile terrain that can tank shock. I love the 'new-found' ability to move and fire (not as well as BA) and not have to worry about 'wasting' points on weapons not firing.

I typically equip either a HKM to help ensure a kill, or a storm bolter as it adds to the dakka and can still fire on the move.

Something that's always floored me is the sudden internet love affair with the rifleman dread for anything other than GK... Why in the Emperor's name would I want to spend 5 more points to get twin linked when I can get better AV, more armor saturation and the ability to hit two different targets with two naked preds?

At any rate, since the change to defensive weapons being str4 or less, I feel there's little point in sponsons on non POTMS vehicles and have since forgone their use.

All IMO.

If you could take predators in squadrons, I'd agree.

However, Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain. The fact is I need the lascannon sponsons on the predators to deal with armor. If I could take 3 AC/Las predators AND take additional predators without sponsons, I would... but I just don't have the force org slots for em.

I would consider fielding baal predators without sponsons though. Their turret weapons are significantly better than an autocannon, and moving 12" per turn to get into firing range for the AC is often required.

Project2501 wrote:
Something that's always floored me is the sudden internet love affair with the rifleman dread for anything other than GK... Why in the Emperor's name would I want to spend 5 more points to get twin linked when I can get better AV, more armor saturation and the ability to hit two different targets with two naked preds?

At least in C:SM, they occupy different slots (barring MotF shenanigans). Dreads can also tarpit, hits targets more accurately and kills (thus kills things more reliably). And it can move and shoot all weapons. And what, you're burning two HS slots and compare it to burning one elite slot? Er...

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

You've clearly missed the point. Allow me to rephrase it for you, if the turret gets taken out, then rather piss and moan about it and mentally count the vehicle as destroyed, use it as mobile terrain that can still attack your enemy via tankshocking and ramming.


Back on topic:
I also love reading all the mech lists people post on the net with lascannon sponsoned preds in them, and wonder how in the hell they plan to ever get a shot off with those sponsons thanks to their placement on the sides of the vehicles unless they simply never move their army after perfectly placing their preds for full fields of fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

heartserenade wrote:

Project2501 wrote:
Something that's always floored me is the sudden internet love affair with the rifleman dread for anything other than GK... Why in the Emperor's name would I want to spend 5 more points to get twin linked when I can get better AV, more armor saturation and the ability to hit two different targets with two naked preds?

At least in C:SM, they occupy different slots (barring MotF shenanigans). Dreads can also tarpit, hits targets more accurately and kills (thus kills things more reliably). And it can move and shoot all weapons. And what, you're burning two HS slots and compare it to burning one elite slot? Er...

Riflemen Dread can also be tarpitted and made useless. One rifleman dread is not hard to take out, two predators are harder to take out. One rifleman dread is more accurate versus ONE target, two predators can take out two targets and are nowhere near inaccurate. i'll gladly burn two HS slots all day everyday to get more tactical options for cheaper points expenditure.

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

You've clearly missed the point. Allow me to rephrase it for you, if the turret gets taken out, then rather piss and moan about it and mentally count the vehicle as destroyed, use it as mobile terrain that can still attack your enemy via tankshocking and ramming.


Back on topic:
I also love reading all the mech lists people post on the net with lascannon sponsoned preds in them, and wonder how in the hell they plan to ever get a shot off with those sponsons thanks to their placement on the sides of the vehicles unless they simply never move their army after perfectly placing their preds for full fields of fire.

Way to miss my point buddy.

Autocannons are great and all, but they will NOT do the job. You flat out need the lascannons available from your heavy support slots, unless your playing a melta-heavy vulkan style list. A single autocannon is not much of a threat to anything other than dark eldar or ork transports, and your still spending a heavy slot on that. The slot it occupies is too valuable to put a single fairly weak gun on.

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

You've clearly missed the point. Allow me to rephrase it for you, if the turret gets taken out, then rather piss and moan about it and mentally count the vehicle as destroyed, use it as mobile terrain that can still attack your enemy via tankshocking and ramming.


Back on topic:
I also love reading all the mech lists people post on the net with lascannon sponsoned preds in them, and wonder how in the hell they plan to ever get a shot off with those sponsons thanks to their placement on the sides of the vehicles unless they simply never move their army after perfectly placing their preds for full fields of fire.

Way to miss my point buddy.

Was it this one?

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

I already addressed that.

Horst wrote:Autocannons are great and all, but they will NOT do the job. You flat out need the lascannons available from your heavy support slots, unless your playing a melta-heavy vulkan style list.

And what job is that exactly? Taking out transports, as in what I had already said in my OP? As in what seemingly the entire internet community agrees is the best purpose for autocanons? Aside from you of course.

Melta takes out high AV, with or without Vulkan. Autocannons take out light AV first and foremost.

Horst wrote:A single autocannon is not much of a threat to anything other than dark eldar or ork transports, and your still spending a heavy slot on that. The slot it occupies is too valuable to put a single fairly weak gun on.

Land speeders, rhinos, razorbacks, chimera side armor and almost all rear AV say 'hi'.

Somehow I think that the 48" makes it less likely to tarpit a dual-AC dreadnought. And I also doubt a predator shooting rear AV often.

Really, I think that taking a naked pred is like taking a glorified non-transporting Rhino. That burns a heavy support slot.

People like psyfleman because 4 str 8 shots that are twin linked, they have improved aegis AND have fortitude. So yes the dread is more expensive but he has more bells and whistles. You basically need a 5-6 to stop the dread.

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

You've clearly missed the point. Allow me to rephrase it for you, if the turret gets taken out, then rather piss and moan about it and mentally count the vehicle as destroyed, use it as mobile terrain that can still attack your enemy via tankshocking and ramming.


Back on topic:
I also love reading all the mech lists people post on the net with lascannon sponsoned preds in them, and wonder how in the hell they plan to ever get a shot off with those sponsons thanks to their placement on the sides of the vehicles unless they simply never move their army after perfectly placing their preds for full fields of fire.

Way to miss my point buddy.

Was it this one?

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

I already addressed that.

Horst wrote:Autocannons are great and all, but they will NOT do the job. You flat out need the lascannons available from your heavy support slots, unless your playing a melta-heavy vulkan style list.

And what job is that exactly? Taking out transports, as in what I had already said in my OP? As in what seemingly the entire internet community agrees is the best purpose for autocanons? Aside from you of course.

Melta takes out high AV, with or without Vulkan. Autocannons take out light AV first and foremost.

Horst wrote:A single autocannon is not much of a threat to anything other than dark eldar or ork transports, and your still spending a heavy slot on that. The slot it occupies is too valuable to put a single fairly weak gun on.

Land speeders, rhinos, razorbacks, chimera side armor and almost all rear AV say 'hi'.

Meh, you make.... points.

The fact is, your wrong. I'm right. a single autocannon is not worth a heavy support slot.

heartserenade wrote:Somehow I think that the 48" makes it less likely to tarpit a dual-AC dreadnought. And I also doubt a predator shooting rear AV often.

Somehow I think you've never heard of outflanking, infiltrating, cavalry, beasts, jump packs, jet packs, scout moves and just movement in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

You've clearly missed the point. Allow me to rephrase it for you, if the turret gets taken out, then rather piss and moan about it and mentally count the vehicle as destroyed, use it as mobile terrain that can still attack your enemy via tankshocking and ramming.


Back on topic:
I also love reading all the mech lists people post on the net with lascannon sponsoned preds in them, and wonder how in the hell they plan to ever get a shot off with those sponsons thanks to their placement on the sides of the vehicles unless they simply never move their army after perfectly placing their preds for full fields of fire.

Way to miss my point buddy.

Was it this one?

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

I already addressed that.

Horst wrote:Autocannons are great and all, but they will NOT do the job. You flat out need the lascannons available from your heavy support slots, unless your playing a melta-heavy vulkan style list.

And what job is that exactly? Taking out transports, as in what I had already said in my OP? As in what seemingly the entire internet community agrees is the best purpose for autocanons? Aside from you of course.

Melta takes out high AV, with or without Vulkan. Autocannons take out light AV first and foremost.

Horst wrote:A single autocannon is not much of a threat to anything other than dark eldar or ork transports, and your still spending a heavy slot on that. The slot it occupies is too valuable to put a single fairly weak gun on.

Land speeders, rhinos, razorbacks, chimera side armor and almost all rear AV say 'hi'.

Meh, you make.... points.

The fact is, your wrong. I'm right. a single autocannon is not worth a heavy support slot.

What are you 5?

Project2501 wrote:

heartserenade wrote:Somehow I think that the 48" makes it less likely to tarpit a dual-AC dreadnought. And I also doubt a predator shooting rear AV often.

Somehow I think you've never heard of outflanking, infiltrating, cavalry, beasts, jump packs, jet packs, scout moves and just movement in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

You've clearly missed the point. Allow me to rephrase it for you, if the turret gets taken out, then rather piss and moan about it and mentally count the vehicle as destroyed, use it as mobile terrain that can still attack your enemy via tankshocking and ramming.


Back on topic:
I also love reading all the mech lists people post on the net with lascannon sponsoned preds in them, and wonder how in the hell they plan to ever get a shot off with those sponsons thanks to their placement on the sides of the vehicles unless they simply never move their army after perfectly placing their preds for full fields of fire.

Way to miss my point buddy.

Was it this one?

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

I already addressed that.

Horst wrote:Autocannons are great and all, but they will NOT do the job. You flat out need the lascannons available from your heavy support slots, unless your playing a melta-heavy vulkan style list.

And what job is that exactly? Taking out transports, as in what I had already said in my OP? As in what seemingly the entire internet community agrees is the best purpose for autocanons? Aside from you of course.

Melta takes out high AV, with or without Vulkan. Autocannons take out light AV first and foremost.

Horst wrote:A single autocannon is not much of a threat to anything other than dark eldar or ork transports, and your still spending a heavy slot on that. The slot it occupies is too valuable to put a single fairly weak gun on.

Land speeders, rhinos, razorbacks, chimera side armor and almost all rear AV say 'hi'.

Meh, you make.... points.

The fact is, your wrong. I'm right. a single autocannon is not worth a heavy support slot.

What are you 5?

Nice comeback. Your still wrong.

Naked preds are nice in low point games but at ~2k you will get much more value out of those extra lascannons.

If it's all about las cannons, should I drop my predators for the more cost effective Blood Angel Devs with lascannons?
I get 4 lascannons for 190 points (47.5 points each).
That's about 8 points cheaper per shot than a marine pred, and more shots per Heavy Slot.

Or, is it possible, that it isn't all about lascannons?
I find my dual multi-melta speeders get most of the leg work done for very few points.

-Matt

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

heartserenade wrote:Somehow I think that the 48" makes it less likely to tarpit a dual-AC dreadnought. And I also doubt a predator shooting rear AV often.

Somehow I think you've never heard of outflanking, infiltrating, cavalry, beasts, jump packs, jet packs, scout moves and just movement in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

You've clearly missed the point. Allow me to rephrase it for you, if the turret gets taken out, then rather piss and moan about it and mentally count the vehicle as destroyed, use it as mobile terrain that can still attack your enemy via tankshocking and ramming.


Back on topic:
I also love reading all the mech lists people post on the net with lascannon sponsoned preds in them, and wonder how in the hell they plan to ever get a shot off with those sponsons thanks to their placement on the sides of the vehicles unless they simply never move their army after perfectly placing their preds for full fields of fire.

Way to miss my point buddy.

Was it this one?

Horst wrote:Heavy support slots are generally too in demand for me to spend 60 points on predators for blocking terrain.

I already addressed that.

Horst wrote:Autocannons are great and all, but they will NOT do the job. You flat out need the lascannons available from your heavy support slots, unless your playing a melta-heavy vulkan style list.

And what job is that exactly? Taking out transports, as in what I had already said in my OP? As in what seemingly the entire internet community agrees is the best purpose for autocanons? Aside from you of course.

Melta takes out high AV, with or without Vulkan. Autocannons take out light AV first and foremost.

Horst wrote:A single autocannon is not much of a threat to anything other than dark eldar or ork transports, and your still spending a heavy slot on that. The slot it occupies is too valuable to put a single fairly weak gun on.

Land speeders, rhinos, razorbacks, chimera side armor and almost all rear AV say 'hi'.

Meh, you make.... points.

The fact is, your wrong. I'm right. a single autocannon is not worth a heavy support slot.

What are you 5?

Nice comeback.

It is appropriate.

Horst wrote:Your still wrong.

It's you're by the way, and you being obtuse makes only you wrong.

Whatever.

The fact is, unless you want to rely on getting within melta range, the only other real viable fire support option for taking out tanks besides predators at long range is the land speeder typhoon. If your comfortable wasting that heavy support slot on a single autocannon, when you can get 2 lascannons along side it, then fine. It is a general consensus among 40k players that auto/las predators are a good choice, and they are a better choice than sponson-less predators.

Horst wrote:The fact is, unless you want to rely on getting within melta range, the only other real viable fire support option for taking out tanks besides predators at long range is the land speeder typhoon.

First of all, I don't believe you know the definition of viable. Secondly, the land raider, devastators, tac squads, CML terminators, lascannon dreads and orbital strike are a few examples of you getting your 'facts' wrong.

Horst wrote:If your['re] comfortable wasting that heavy support slot on a single autocannon, when you can get 2 lascannons along side it, then fine. It is a general consensus among 40k players that auto/las predators are a good choice, and they are a better choice than sponson-less predators

Agreed.

We appreciate a spirited discussion, but keep it friendly, folks.

Horst wrote:

Meh, you make.... points.

The fact is, your wrong. I'm right. a single autocannon is not worth a heavy support slot.

no you are not, its very rare for most SM lists to max out their HS options under 2000 points. SW sure because they can split fire but others, no. Thus a HS slot is worthless in many games. Now if you are maxing your slots with more expensive preds, devistators, thunderfire cannons or ironclad dreads then im going to laugh at you but go right ahead.

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:The fact is, unless you want to rely on getting within melta range, the only other real viable fire support option for taking out tanks besides predators at long range is the land speeder typhoon.

First of all, I don't believe you know the definition of viable. Secondly, the land raider, devastators, tac squads, CML terminators, lascannon dreads and orbital strike are a few examples of you getting your 'facts' wrong.

Horst wrote:If your['re] comfortable wasting that heavy support slot on a single autocannon, when you can get 2 lascannons along side it, then fine. It is a general consensus among 40k players that auto/las predators are a good choice, and they are a better choice than sponson-less predators

Agreed.

Fine, replace viable with optimal.

And if you agree that auto/las predators are better heavy support than pure AC predators, what are we arguing about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:

Horst wrote:

Meh, you make.... points.

The fact is, your wrong. I'm right. a single autocannon is not worth a heavy support slot.

no you are not, its very rare for most SM lists to max out their HS options under 2000 points. SW sure because they can split fire but others, no. Thus a HS slot is worthless in many games. Now if you are maxing your slots with more expensive preds, devistators, thunderfire cannons or ironclad dreads then im going to laugh at you but go right ahead.

Then I would make the argument that those SM players are either relying on land raiders full of hammernators, or are using bad lists. SM lists should almost always max heavy support.

If you've got a HS slot or two to spare, then naked Predators seem like a great option. High AV for the points, can move and fire their gun, big boxy mobile terrain/cover; sure, why not. Now, I don't think I'd purpose-build an army with the idea that I'd be taking multiple naked Predators; rather, they might be something to throw in with the points that are sitting around at the end looking for something to do. But for a troops-heavy army with a lot of FA or Elites choices, sure, why not?

As was mentioned, the only thing that concerns me with multiple naked preadators are the support slots.
If you could squadren them, it would be a no-brainer, but when those slots compete for LRs and LC preadators, it's hard to justify.

That being said, using 3 AC preadators can work, you just need the anti-av 12 solution elsewhere be it typhoons or dreads.
What I like about that solution are the multiple AV 13 targets. Preadators are tough nuts to crack at range
What I don't understand is why at that point you would not want to spend another 60 points for 6 HBs. Thats 18 more str 5 shots you have available

Horst wrote:
Then I would make the argument that those SM players are either relying on land raiders full of hammernators, or are using bad lists. SM lists should almost always max heavy support.

always thought sternguard were the best thing in the list

As Mannahnin said, keep it civil guys.

I have to agree with Horst here. Paying 60pts for an Autocannon, even with an AV 13 shell just doesn't seem worth it to me; it may be able to do the job, but there are much more effective methods of dealing with light-AV, especially since it take up a HS slot for one tank.

You may as well pay the points for a Rifleman dread, easier to get a cover save, more shots and a sturdier platform for them.

Iranna.

Horst wrote:And if you agree that auto/las predators are better heavy support than pure AC predators, what are we arguing about?

Let's look at what I agreed to shall we?

Horst wrote:Horst wrote:
If your['re] comfortable wasting that heavy support slot on a single autocannon, when you can get 2 lascannons along side it, then fine. It is a general consensus among 40k players that auto/las predators are a good choice, and they are a better choice than sponson-less predators

Show me exactly where I agreed that auto/las predators are better heavy support than pure AC predators please.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iranna wrote:
You may as well pay the points for a Rifleman dread, easier to get a cover save, more shots and a sturdier platform for them.

The rifleman does NOT get more shots than two naked predators, and the second bit bolded is purely speculative and under debate.

Project2501 wrote:

Horst wrote:If your['re] comfortable wasting that heavy support slot on a single autocannon, when you can get 2 lascannons along side it, then fine. It is a general consensus among 40k players that auto/las predators are a good choice, and they are a better choice than sponson-less predators

Agreed.

That sounds an awful lot like your agreeing with me there bromego.

Iranna wrote:
You may as well pay the points for a Rifleman dread, easier to get a cover save, more shots and a sturdier platform for them.

The rifleman does NOT get more shots than two naked predators, and the second bit bolded is purely speculative and under debate.

Iranna wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

Iranna wrote:
You may as well pay the points for a Rifleman dread, easier to get a cover save, more shots and a sturdier platform for them.

The rifleman does NOT get more shots than two naked predators, and the second bit bolded is purely speculative and under debate.

You are correct that it does not get more shots than 2 naked predators. Luckily for me, I was talking about one solo predator. The whole sentence lacked anything to indicate that I was being pluralistic.

Then I'm glad to have made you specify what you were referring to.

Iranna wrote:Well there isn't much to debate.

It's easier to get cover for the Dreadnought, therefore, it is more survivable. Due to the abundance of cover, it'll most likely have a 4+ save against anything, which if you want that on a predator, you'll need to pop smoke or manoeuvre around/ hug terrain. This limits your fields of fire.

If you're getting cover for your dread in your opponent's shooting phase, then you would have had to already put your dread into cover in your movement phase, thereby giving your enemies coversaves and limiting the dreads effectiveness. Otherwise, you're still limiting your fileds of fire for your dread against any other target than the one it does have clear LOS to.

Iranna wrote:The dread is sturdier.

And quite possibly just as limited, while being over twice the price of a single naked pred.

Project2501 wrote:

Then I'm glad to have made you specify what you were referring to.

Excellent, I'm glad that I could have cleared that up for you - even if it was quite simple to understand.

Project2501 wrote:

If you're getting cover for your dread in your opponent's shooting phase, then you would have had to already put your dread into cover in your movement phase, thereby giving your enemies coversaves and limiting the dreads effectiveness. Otherwise, you're still limiting your fileds of fire for your dread against any other target than the one it does have clear LOS to.

Or deploy it in cover? Also, just because my Dreadnought is in cover does not mean that my opponent will get cover saves.

Project2501 wrote:
And quite possibly just as limited, while being over twice the price of a single naked pred.

Quite possibly. However, you get an additional 2 shots. That are twin-linked. That may be why they are the go-to choice for light AT than naked predators.

Iranna.

I never intended this discussion to drift towards GK Psybolt AC Dread Cheese. We all know they rock.

However, my point was more about the cost effectiveness of a 60pt tank that the enemy wastes shots on. Everyone wants to focus on the mathammer of what is statistically better. I find that no matter how much number crunching you do you cannot predict human behavior. I was surprised that my opponent spent 2 turns concentrating on taking out 2 tanks with a single AC each. Surely that has some added value. We're talking bright lances and all kinds of eldar grav tank cheese that in 2 turns was only able to immobilize 1 predator, allowing my rhino's behind to speed past and continue on unharmed (the rhinos, all 3, were taken out/immobilized on turn 3).

Now obviously I am forgoing some serious heavy support firepower here... maybe supplementing with an ML dev squad, Bikers with melta and attack bikes with melta and melta speeders should make up for that loss.

~Lion~