Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's a fun thought exercise. Why would they bother to mention that you can't use the ability on the Ghost Knights if using it on Mordrak was perfectly legit? Why bother to specify that?

Actually there is no requirement that you take Mordrak in the Ghost Knight's unit section of the codex. It does not say in Mordrak's entry that he can be taken as a unit upgrade for the Ghost Knights and there is no requirement that you purchase Mordrak to purchase the Ghost Knights. Unlike Thawn, who specifies that he may be purchased as a replacement for a Justicar in 1 Terminator Squad.

He considered an upgrade character of the ghost knight squad and they leave when he does. Since he's an upgrade and the rules state ghosts can't be made scoring what's there to debate?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read both faq's and the codex and it's clear neither can be mde scoring. Also taking the ghost knight without mordrak? What part of the foc would they fulfill since they go away without mordrak. lol

daedalus wrote:Here's a fun thought exercise. Why would they bother to mention that you can't use the ability on the Ghost Knights if using it on Mordrak was perfectly legit? Why bother to specify that?

How about to not let them scout, re-roll 1s to wound, gain counter-attack or being scoring themselves.

NecronLord3 wrote:Actually there is no requirement that you take Mordrak in the Ghost Knight's unit section of the codex. It does not say in Mordrak's entry that he can be taken as a unit upgrade for the Ghost Knights and there is no requirement that you purchase Mordrak to purchase the Ghost Knights. Unlike Thawn, who specifies that he may be purchased as a replacement for a Justicar in 1 Terminator Squad.

That's because, if you don't take any Ghost Knights, you can still have Mordrak.

That does not, in any way, change the fact that IF you have Ghost Knights, Mordrak is an Upgrade Character for that unit of Ghost Knights. Period. That won't change, no matter what. He isn't a separate unit, if there are Ghost Knights in your army.

"Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an Upgrade Character. . ."

So, you have an army that includes Mordrak, and some Ghost Knights. At the beginning of the battle, you roll for Grand Strategy. Now; check the list of units you may NOT make scoring. "Grand Master Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights" is on that list. That means the unit can't be made scoring. . . and Mordrak is part of the unit.

Which means you cannot make him scoring.

NecronLord3 wrote:Actually there is no requirement that you take Mordrak in the Ghost Knight's unit section of the codex. It does not say in Mordrak's entry that he can be taken as a unit upgrade for the Ghost Knights and there is no requirement that you purchase Mordrak to purchase the Ghost Knights. Unlike Thawn, who specifies that he may be purchased as a replacement for a Justicar in 1 Terminator Squad.

I see what you're saying, were it not for the fact that it covers that he's an upgrade character on page 40, Ghost Knights appear in the outlined sidebar box normally reserved for upgrade characters, their special rule reference page is the same as Mordraks, and that under Mordraks Ghostly Bodyguard rule, it has to specify that "An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights". Interestingly, by your rationale, Ghost Knights wouldn't have Stealth unless you take them with Mordrak, as his special rule is also the only place that it mentions they have it.

Draigo wrote:He considered an upgrade character of the ghost knight squad and they leave when he does. Since he's an upgrade and the rules state ghosts can't be made scoring what's there to debate?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read both faq's and the codex and it's clear neither can be mde scoring. Also taking the ghost knight without mordrak? What part of the foc would they fulfill since they go away without mordrak. lol

Being an upgrade character does not prevent the assigning of Grand Strategy.

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Being an upgrade character does not prevent the assigning of Grand Strategy.

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

If you're an upgrade character in a unit that is specifically prohibited from Grand Strategy, then yes it does.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't becouse the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't becouse it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

Who said that, reread maybe? I wrote back to your post, about how they would work fine as HQ without Mordrak. With it dosen't becouse the rule don't allow it, so we should stick to only using real rule in this argument.

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

Who said that, reread maybe? I wrote back to your post, about how they would work fine as HQ without Mordrak. With it dosen't becouse the rule don't allow it, so we should stick to only using real rule in this argument.

What rule precludes the use of Ghost Knights as an HQ? I see no such limitation. The unit entry for Ghost Knights does not require Mordrak to be taken in the same army as Ghost Knights.

NecronLord3 wrote:Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

...
You're trolling us now, right?

Page 40, GK Codex.

An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights

Where's your permission outside of that to take Ghost Knights? In the army list they're boxed out under Mordrak - because you can only take them if you take Mordrak.

They are not separate.

The way it says in the codex is if you field Mordrak you can take them. They're not theyre own stand alone. They also place a box around their entry below Mordrak to show they aren't a regular entry.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

Who said that, reread maybe? I wrote back to your post, about how they would work fine as HQ without Mordrak. With it dosen't becouse the rule don't allow it, so we should stick to only using real rule in this argument.

What rule precludes the use of Ghost Knights as an HQ? I see no such limitation. The unit entry for Ghost Knights does not require Mordrak to be taken in the same army as Ghost Knights.

LOL I think I'm going to piss myself. Did you really post that.

Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:The way it says in the codex is if you field Mordrak you can take them. They're not theyre own stand alone. They also place a box around their entry below Mordrak to show they aren't a regular entry.

You can take them, not that you can only take them when fielding Mordrak. Under the Unit entry Ghost Knights are available on their own with no requirements.

NecronLord3 wrote:Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.

So, you really think you can take a Ghost Knight unit without Mordrak?

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.

So, you really think you can take a Ghost Knight unit without Mordrak?

No, my point is that they are separate units, purchased separately. If GW wanted them to be one unit with Mordrak as an Upgrade for all intents and purposes, the Ghost Knights would have been included in his unit entry. They were not, and are not, thus there is a reason they were kept separate leaving Mordrak subject to Grand Strategy.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.

So, you really think you can take a Ghost Knight unit without Mordrak?

No, my point is that they are separate units, purchased separately. If GW wanted them to be one unit with Mordrak as an Upgrade for all intents and purposes, the Ghost Knights would have been included in his unit entry. They were not, and are not, thus there is a reason they were kept separate leaving Mordrak subject to Grand Strategy.

Yes, if he dosen't take Ghost Knights. I think this has been go over.

They're entry in the army of titan is as a speacial rule of Mordrak. They cannot be taken seperate.

False. The fact that Ghost Knights are in a boxout under Mordrak's entry shows they are an option for his entry. This is consistent with all of the recent codices. If they were just another unit then they would have been formatted like any other unit.

NecronLord3 wrote:

No, my point is that they are separate units, purchased separately. If GW wanted them to be one unit with Mordrak as an Upgrade for all intents and purposes, the Ghost Knights would have been included in his unit entry. They were not, and are not, thus there is a reason they were kept separate leaving Mordrak subject to Grand Strategy.

Except they're NOT separate units. You can take Mordrak, alone. In that case, yes, he's a legal target for Grand Strategy.

But AS SOON AS A SINGLE GHOST KNIGHT IS PRESENT, he is no longer a legal target, because Mordrak and Ghost Knights are NOT separate units. You CANNOT target them separately; they are the SAME UNIT.

Well I've gone back to the orignal playtesting document and a funny line was left out of the final document:

If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice.

Since GW decided to leave this out of the final codex, it seems pretty clear they are meant to be separate units. And by the way if you are running Mordrak with a Unit of Ghost Knights and another HQ, your list is illegal.

Cept theyre boxed in as an entry UNDER Mordrak, do not have an entry in the army but listed as a speacial rule for Mordrak. He's not an IC and can only be with ghost knights you buy for him. Ghost knight cannot exist without Mordrak. So along with all the overwhelming info saying NO you continue on your stance that they're seperate. It's obvious you don't have a clue and have never read the codex.

NecronLord3 wrote:Well I've gone back to the orignal playtesting document and a funny line was left out of the final document:

If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice.

Since GW decided to leave this out of the final codex, it seems pretty clear they are meant to be separate units. And by the way if you are running Mordrak with a Unit of Ghost Knights and another HQ, your list is illegal.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Codex: Grey Knights, page 40 wrote:An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights. Ghost Knights also always have the Stealth special rule due to their spectral nature. Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right.

This really isn't unclear at all.

NecronLord3 wrote:Well I've gone back to the orignal playtesting document and a funny line was left out of the final document:

If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice.

Since GW decided to leave this out of the final codex, it seems pretty clear they are meant to be separate units. And by the way if you are running Mordrak with a Unit of Ghost Knights and another HQ, your list is illegal.

No, if that line existed they would be separate units, since Mordrak would join the Ghost Knights.
That line does not exist, and the actual rules state that Mordrak's Ghost Knights are a different unit from Mordrak solo.
Since you cannot make Mordrak's Ghost Knights scoring, and Mordrak is not a separate unit, you cannot make him scoring unless you buy him solo.

And your last statement is false and has no rules basis.
Mordrak is purchased. He allows you to purchase Ghost Knights as a bodyguard.
Mordrak and these Ghost Knights make up one unit. Hence, one HQ slot.

Jeez guys read the rules why don't ya how more obvious can you get?

"An Army that includes Mordack can also include a unit of Ghost Knights"

Mordack = Ghost Knights no Mordack = No Ghost Knights

Mordack and the Ghost Knights form a unit ... A unit not two or 5 or 7 .... one unit.

He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation. By himself ID with his ghostly mates UC

RETINUES
"Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’, ‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game."

As a member of the unit he cannot have the GS because he is part of the Grey Knight unit once they are all dead or if you never bought them in the first place he is an Independent Character and still can't have the GS.


"If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice."

I would have said that actually confirms that the Ghosts aren't a separate unit because they don't take up a slot in similar fashion of other retinues.
I think they left it out because it is unnecessary as it is obvious they are a retinue.

Only point I need to clarify is ........ If Mordack is wounded and you HAVEN'T purchased the Grey Knights pre game :
Does he take the test to have a Grey Knight to turn up to save him? I think he does.

Yeah, it's pretty clear what RAI is here, especially with the tidbit under Grand Strategy preventing Ghost Knights from being scoring.

I guess you can argue about the RAW and semantics of it all, if that turns you on.

He's never an IC look at the army list. In his own entry it says he acts like an upgrade for the ghost knights.

Magpie wrote:He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation.

Mordrak, like Mephiston for example is never an Independent Character.