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Magpie wrote:if you never bought them in the first place he is an Independent Character and still can't have the GS.

Your suggestion to read the rules is amusing when you say this. Considering its absolutely false and all.
He's not an IC. Ever.

Only point I need to clarify is ........ If Mordack is wounded and you HAVEN'T purchased the Grey Knights pre game :
Does he take the test to have a Grey Knight to turn up to save him? I think he does.

Nothing to do with this thread, but I'm pretty sure yes. My book isn't nearby however.

Whenever Mordrak suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D3 at
the end of the phase. If the result is equal to or greater than
the number of Morgrak's remaining wounds, a Ghost Knight
appears to defend him. Place a new Ghost Knight within
coherency of Mordrak's unit-it joins Mordrak's unit to all
intents and purposes.

Ghaz wrote:

Magpie wrote:He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation.

Mordrak, like Mephiston for example is never an Independent Character.

Is there a rules reference for that ?

I've not found anywhere that says that Mordack cannot be an Independent Character.
Don't care about Mephiston I've always thought he was a bit dodgy actually, but thing is he doesn't have a retinue so his characterness isn't subject to change
The rules quoted under Retinues show that models with bodyguards count as Independent characters when their bodyguard isn't around.

As a somewhat oblique support for it I note that all other Grand Masters are independent characters so fluff wise it would seem to support he is too,

So yeah, you don't have the option of not rolling.

Although the Ghost Knights "earned" from that are evidently different from the Bodyguard. The wound knights join his unit, while he becomes part of the bodyguard unit. So if he was solo, they'd be joining his solo unit and not be Mordrak's Ghost Knights, they'd be Mordrak and friends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Magpie wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Magpie wrote:He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation.

Mordrak, like Mephiston for example is never an Independent Character.

Is there a rules reference for that ?

I've not found anywhere that says that Mordack cannot be an Independent Character. Don't care about Mephiston I've always thought he was a bit dodgy actually
The rules quoted under Retinues show that models with bodyguards count as Independent characters when their bodyguard isn't around.

As a somewhat oblique support for it I note that all other Grand Masters are independent characters so fluff wise it would seem to support he is too,

Crowe is also not an IC.
Mordrak doesnt have a retinue - its a unit similar to a retinue, but not one.
Mordrak is simply a unique special character like many others.

They aren't a bodyguard. lol It's a speacial rule. The army list entry says hes not an IC.

Page 40 and 82 of the Grey Knight Codex "Ghostly Bodyguard"
Page 48 of the rulebook "which is normally called a ‘retinue’,
‘bodyguard’ or similar"

Can you give me a reference that shows he is excluded from the retinue rule?

Thanks for the heads up in the free GGK's too guys

The ghost rule says if all the ghosts die he becomes a single model unit. It states he does does change type to IC. Your confusing the name of his speacial rule with an actual retinue. The characters that have a retinue clearly state in their rules not a vague inference based on the speacial rules name.

Draigo wrote:The ghost rule says if all the ghosts die he becomes a single model unit. It states he does does change type to IC. Your confusing the name of his speacial rule with an actual retinue. The characters that have a retinue clearly state in their rules not a vague inference based on the speacial rules name.

Oh ok, does that mean an Inquisitor can leave his/her warband then?

Magpie wrote:

Draigo wrote:The ghost rule says if all the ghosts die he becomes a single model unit. It states he does does change type to IC. Your confusing the name of his speacial rule with an actual retinue. The characters that have a retinue clearly state in their rules not a vague inference based on the speacial rules name.

Oh ok, does that mean an Inquisitor can leave his/her warband then?

Yes because their existence does not require him. They only need him for inclusion in the list. Also the Inquisitor most importantly is an IC.

Can you tell me a character that does have a retinue ?

Hive Tyrants (including The Swarmlord) get a retinue of a sorts. HT's can join a unit of TG as if the HT is an IC. While together, the HT cannot be shot at separately, and fights with the TG in CC (as an upgrade character). Additionally, the whole group is 1 KP. However, the HT is never an IC. If this doesn't help I do apologize, as it is Mardi Gras, and I did have a bit too much of the Creature.

LOL ! Glad you're enjoying yourself ! half ya luck

Magpie wrote:Is there a rules reference for that ?

Its simple. He doesn't have the Independent Character special rule, therefore he is not one. Likewise there is no rule saying that an Upgrade Character becomes an Independent Character when he is by himself.

No but there is a rule that says that characters who cannot leave their special units count as upgrade characters until their unit is killed where after they count as IC's.

Mordark gets a special unit he can't leave and the special rule itself even confirms that he operates as an upgrade character.

No, there is a rule that says that INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS lose that and count as a UC *then* return to being an IC again. Read the retinue rule more carefully, and note it requires you to *return* to being an IC.

Mordrak is never, at any point in the game, ever an IC. Ever. It is not a retinue.

Necron - you cannot pick Mordrak, because he is not a separate unit, when you roll GS, when you buy GjK. List creation, which is before you roll for GS, requires that Mordrak + GhK are a single unit. GS requires that you pick units. You cannot pick Mordrak, as he is not a separate unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, there is a rule that says that INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS lose that and count as a UC *then* return to being an IC again. Read the retinue rule more carefully, and note it requires you to *return* to being an IC.

Mordrak is never, at any point in the game, ever an IC. Ever. It is not a retinue.

Necron - you cannot pick Mordrak, because he is not a separate unit, when you roll GS, when you buy GjK. List creation, which is before you roll for GS, requires that Mordrak + GhK are a single unit. GS requires that you pick units. You cannot pick Mordrak, as he is not a separate unit.

Actually it says "Some Codex books allow you to field characters" no independent mentioned, "normally called a ‘retinue’,‘bodyguard’ or similar" it is called a bodyguard in the special rule, "at which point it starts counting as an independent character" STARTS not returns

Page 47 under the IC rules:

"...and it's rules will clearly state that the model is an independent character".

Yes I see that, which I'd reckon would discount my thought earlier that he was an IC even if you don't buy the Ghost Knight unit but I am still fairly sure that the Retinue rule applies to him 100%.

The only point would be that the bit that says "at which point he reverts to being a single model unit in his own right" could be seen to overturn the requirement to be an IC under the retinue rule.

Man, this thread went strange quick.

Magpie wrote:Yes I see that, which I'd reckon would discount my thought earlier that he was an IC even if you don't buy the Ghost Knight unit but I am still fairly sure that the Retinue rule applies to him 100%.

No. You must be an Independent Character for the Retinue rule to apply. It's included in the Independent Character section. You don't even reference that section unless - guess what - you're an Independent Character.

Mordrak is not an Independent Character. He's just a Character.

rigeld2 wrote:

Magpie wrote:Yes I see that, which I'd reckon would discount my thought earlier that he was an IC even if you don't buy the Ghost Knight unit but I am still fairly sure that the Retinue rule applies to him 100%.

No. You must be an Independent Character for the Retinue rule to apply. It's included in the Independent Character section. You don't even reference that section unless - guess what - you're an Independent Character.

Mordrak is not an Independent Character. He's just a Character.

Not true, the retinue bit just says "some characters" all other references in that section say "independent character" as the specific case.

...and all contained in the specific "Independent Characters" section of the rulebook. Unless you start off as an IC, you dont get to reference that section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:...and all contained in the specific "Independent Characters" section of the rulebook. Unless you start off as an IC, you dont get to reference that section.

Nah, not buying it

Magpie wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:...and all contained in the specific "Independent Characters" section of the rulebook. Unless you start off as an IC, you dont get to reference that section.

Nah, not buying it

... What? You're not buying that's how the rules work?

What is giving you permission to reference the retinue section?

It specifically says in mordraks rule that he returns to being a single model unit if all the ghost knights die. So the end of the retinue rules have nothing to do with this.

So, to summarise:

1) He is never, when you buy GhK, a unit eligible for GS. Thus, unless you keep him entirely solo, he can never be made scoring.

2) GhK are NOT A RETINUE, as Mordrak +GhK does not fit the definition of such, and as such Mordrak is never an IC and never worth 2KP

Any other "interpretation" just ignores the rules, and can thus be ignored

Well like I said before the section you are referring to mention "Independent Character" in all rules but for the retinue one.

I really don't think the position of a rule is necessarily exclusive, confusing formatting for sure but not exclusive.

Perhaps the fact that those rules are within a box indicates that that section is out of the general flow of the rules for that section?.Seems to be the case throughout the book.

But OK if we put that one aside as being left to agree to disagree, How is a Retinue specifically defined? i.e. How do you know a group of models is a Retinue?

Magpie wrote:Well like I said before the section you are referring to mention "Independent Character" in all rules but for the retinue one.

I really don't think the position of a rule is necessarily exclusive, confusing formatting for sure but not exclusive.

Perhaps the fact that those rules are within a box indicates that that section is out of the general flow of the rules for that section?.Seems to be the case throughout the book.

The issue is that Mordrak does not have the Independent Character rule, and he has no way to gain it. He's not an Independent Character, because being an Independent Character means having the Independent Character rule.

Been over that I'm going to leave it there for the sake of moving the discussion on

No matter how you want the rule to be magpie no to will let you run it that way. The rule is as has been explained numerous times. He is not an IC, never will be an IC and does not have a retinue. The ghosts are an effect of his speacial rule.