Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here is an older thread referencing the issue I am now questioning. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358287.page#3942951

Basically can Mordrak assign himself an ability from grand strategy specifically making himself scoring? His Ghost knight unit is prevented from the assignment but he himself is not. Given the Necron special character Trayzan being a character that can join squads and maintaining his own ability to score I feel you should be able to do this with Mordrak's while in his own Ghost Knight unit.

You have to pick a unit, then lists units that cannot be picked

There is no way, with Ghost Knights present, to pick Mordrak because he is not a unit separate from the disallowed Ghost Knights

If he is alone, then you can make him scoring.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have to pick a unit, then lists units that cannot be picked

There is no way, with Ghost Knights present, to pick Mordrak because he is not a unit separate from the disallowed Ghost Knights

If he is alone, then you can make him scoring.

Can you please explain to me why the ghost knights arrn't a unit that can be selected? The rule for Ghost Knights explicitly states that the Ghost Knights are a unit to which Mordrak is treated as an upgrade character.

Ghost knights are prevented by the rules of Grand Strategy but Mordrak is not since he isn't a unit of ghost knights, nor an IC.

I'd agree, especially since the Ghostly Bodyguard entry says, " ... until such point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to a single model unit in his own right." Meaning Mordrak and his Ghost Knights are different units - but only when the Knights aren't around. He can't be made scoring if he's with his Knights.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Can you please explain to me why the ghost knights arrn't a unit that can be selected? The rule for Ghost Knights explicitly states that the Ghost Knights are a unit to which Mordrak is treated as an upgrade character.

And? Read Grand Strategy, and read the exceptions to the units that can be selected

NecronLord3 wrote:Ghost knights are prevented by the rules of Grand Strategy but Mordrak is not since he isn't a unit of ghost knights, nor an IC.

Find the Mordrak UNIT on the table, when Ghost Knights are present. Remember the first bit of GS, which requires you to select a UNIT? Once you have found the Mordrak unit, NOT the Mordrak+Ghost Knight Unit, then you can select him for GS.

Hint: he doesnt exist as a separate unit, unless the ghosts are all dead or he was bought alone

Well check First to the Fray where it specifically references Mordrak AND the unit he is attached to. The Ghostly body guard rules state that he acts as an upgrade character to unit. Though he is clearly purchased as a separate entry and Grand Strategy takes place before deployment of forces.

Before deployment i s after list building, which is when you have bought the GhK for mordrak. He is a UC for the unit, not a separate unit - you just said as much!

He is never a unit by himself, unless his GhK are dead or were never bought. Check the definition of units.

Bear in mind: I *run* Mordrak, so I would love for him to be scoring. He just isnt, unless you take him without GhK, which is a waste

Acting as an upgrade character, does not make him an upgrade character. His unit entry is very different from Justicar Thawn which clearly treats him as such and states it as so in the unit entry. Mordrak contains no such limitation.

NecronLord3 wrote:Acting as an upgrade character, does not make him an upgrade character. His unit entry is very different from Justicar Thawn which clearly treats him as such and states it as so in the unit entry. Mordrak contains no such limitation.

Acting as is the same thing as counts as which is the same thing as is. Treating them differently leads to insanity.

You can elect Mordrak if he wasn't bought with the Ghost Knights. If he is, you can't elect him because he doesn't exist by himself - it's a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as the leader - not a separate unit - the Ghostly Bodyguard says it's one unit, not two. For your interpretation to work, there must be a unit separate from the Ghost Knights that is Mordrak - and there isn't.

NecronLord3 wrote:Acting as an upgrade character, does not make him an upgrade character. His unit entry is very different from Justicar Thawn which clearly treats him as such and states it as so in the unit entry. Mordrak contains no such limitation.

Wrong. Again, find the separate "Mordrak" unit. If you can find a separate unit I will then start shooting at said separate unit. Good job pgae 3 tells us tehre is only one unit.

Okay then Justicar Thawn makes his whole unit fearless.

Sigh. Arey ou still arguing that there is a separate "Mordrak" unit? Because I'm shooting it.

Actually address and answer a point, instead of starting something different. Its an irritating way to argue, and likely to annoy.

No, he doesnt, because the unit isnt fearless. You have a fearless model in a non-fearless unit

And you can have a scoring model in a non-scoring unit.

As for seperate entries pg. 82. Mordrak is purchased as an entirely seperate entry from the Ghost Knight unit. Unlike Justicar thrawn which is purchased as an upgrade to a squad of Terminator Grey Knights. In fact you could even argue that the Ghost Knights may be purchased without Mordrak as there is no limitation in their unit entry as to how they are selected.

There are plenty of 'count as' examples in the past. Destroyers counting as Jetbikes, Dread Knights county as Jump Infantry, Stealth Suits count as if the Night Fight rules are in effect. However 3rd ed Destroyers only moved as Jetbikes, Dread Knights move as Jump Infantry but remain MCs. And Stealth Suits use the night fight rules without night fight actually being in effect. Just as Mordrak can be granted Scoring and count as an upgrade character when attached to a unit of Ghost Knights without actually being an upgrade character. Effectively the Ghost Knights are more of an upgrade unit to Mordrak than he is an upgrade character to them.

Mordrak cannot "revert" to a single model unit unless he isn't one to begin with. Ghostly Bodyguard says he reverts if there are no more Ghost Knights. Therefore, he is not a single model unit when there are Ghost Knights.

How hard is that to understand?

There is no single model stipulation in the Grand Strategy rule, only prevention of assigning to ICs, non-walker vehicles, henchman and Mordraks's unit of Ghost Knights.

Does Mordrak fit any of these criteria? No.

Is he a Ghost Knight? No.

Are Ghost Knights a separate unit entry? Yes.

Can he be assigned scoring? Yes.

Does he cease being a scoring unit when he joins a unit of Ghost Knights? No.

Do the Ghost Knights become scoring? No.

Is there precedent for this to function in other aspects of the game? Yes(Trayzan & Thawn) Scoring model in a non scoring unit. Justicar Thawn, fearless model in a non-fearless unit. There are rules specifically restricting Justicar Thawn from using fearless while in a squad that is not also fearless. There are no rules restricting Mordrak from being a scoring unit while in a non-scoring unit of Ghost Knights.

NecronLord3 wrote:There is no single model stipulation in the Grand Strategy rule, only prevention of assigning to ICs, non-walker vehicles, henchman and Mordraks's unit of Ghost Knights.

Correct.

Does Mordrak fit any of these criteria? No.

Correct.

Is he a Ghost Knight? No.

Correct.

Can he be assigned scoring? Yes.

GK Codex, page 40 wrote:
Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit

That is "Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights".
Mordrak cannot be made scoring if you purchase Ghost Knights.

Does he cease being a scoring unit when he joins a unit of Ghost Knights? No.

He doesn't join a unit of Ghost Knights he is in a unit. There's a difference.

Is there precedent for this to function in other aspects of the game? Yes(Trayzan & Thawn) Scoring model in a non scoring unit.

Has nothing to do with Mordrak.

Justicar Thawn, fearless model in a non-fearless unit.

Has nothing to do with Mordrak.


Yes, Mordrak when solo can be made scoring.
If you purchase Mordrak's Ghost Knights, he is no long Mordrak - he's a member of Mordrak's Ghost Knights, which cannot be made scoring.
He's not his own unit - he is a member of a multi-model unit.

Let me repeat that, since it seems to be the point you're missing:

Mordrak is not prohibited from being made scoring.
Mordrak, as an individual Character unit, does not exist if there are Ghost Knights on the board/in your list.
Since Grand Strategy requires you to pick a unit, you cannot pick Mordrak because he is not an individual unit.

If you don't buy Ghost Knights but elect to run Mordrak solo (why?) he could be made scoring, but since the Mordrak unit you elected does not exist while Ghost Knights are on the board, he is not a scoring model inside a non-scoring unit.

I'm not going to get into KP issues (if you kill off all the Ghost Knights in one turn, and Mordrak the next, is that 2KP or 1? Another thread...)

Mordrak's kill points is covered in the FAQ. No need to discuss.

Mordrak is a separate unit from the Ghost Knights. First to the Fray makes this clear. Ghostly bodyguard only makes him 'count as' an upgrade character, it does not make him one, unlike Justicar Thawn. They form a unit during play but Grand Strategy is assigned before setup.

NecronLord3 wrote:Mordrak's kill points is covered in the FAQ. No need to discuss.

Good to know - I hadn't looked there yet.

Mordrak is a separate unit from the Ghost Knights. First to the Fray makes this clear.

FttF clarifies that ICs joining his Ghost Knight unit are okay to come in as well.

Ghostly bodyguard only makes him 'count as' an upgrade character, it does not make him one, unlike Justicar Thawn.

As I said before, "counts as" must be the same thing as "is" or the rules fail miserably in insane ways.

They form a unit during play but Grand Strategy is assigned before setup.

You have no basis for the first part of that sentence. The Ghostly Bodyguard rule says "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit." and goes on to say that if all the Ghost Knights are slain he "reverts to being a single model unit in his own right."

Therefore he is not a single model unit while the Ghost Knights are in the list/on the table. Therefore he is not eligible to be elected for scoring.

Nos and rigeld2 are completely on target here. I'm surprised this is even a subject of debate. Mordrak is as legitimately as much a member of the Ghost Knights squad as a Sergeant is in an Tac Squad.

"Mordrak is a separate unit from the Ghost Knights"
No, he isnt. He really, really isnt.

If you INSIST on him being a separate unt then I WILL SHOOT AT MORDRAK, as I target UNITS with shooting. If you really, really, really want to belive that he is a separate unit, then I will direct shooting on him.

Sheesh.

Or, back in the real world of actual rules: you are required, through GS, to select a UNIT. Mordrak, when you have bought GhK, is not a separate unit to the GhK, but a single unit with them. He is therefore NOT a legal target as you cannot target the GhK unit, due to the restrictions.

Just give it up.

Then by that logic Justicar Thawn is the unit of Terminators and therefore they are fearless.

No. He's in the unit of Terminators and the Fearless USR says they aren't fearless.

Thrawn and Mordrak are not similar enough to compare. It's like comparing a Hive Tyrant to a SM Captain.

Why not? He isn't and IC joining a unit. Hell he isn't really joined to the unit right? He is the unit. He is not a character joined after all he is a unit upgrade therefore not limited to USR of fearless that pertains to characters joined to a unit.

NecronLord3 wrote:Then by that logic Justicar Thawn is the unit of Terminators and therefore they are fearless.

It's really apples and oranges you're comparing here, but hell, I'll bite. How? Fearless specifically states:

However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless.

A single specific upgrade character (that REALLY is an upgrade character) added to the squad that gets fearless cannot actually use fearless as long as he's with everyone else in his squad. That ability comes into play when he's by himself after getting resurrected.

Now what you are wanting to do is use an ability on a Mordrak and his unit of Ghost Knights which specifically states that it can't be used on "Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights". There is no amount of bad analogies or contextual wrangling you can use to justify why being able to use the ability on a unit of (1 Mordrak & 1+ Ghost Knights) is permitted, and since you can't ever have ghost knights sans Mordrak at this point, you can't get away with saying that a given unit of Ghost Knights does not belong to Mordrak.

It occurs to me that you might just be failing to understand the rules at a fundamental level. That would explain the confusion. You realize this isn't a retinue or anything weird like that, right? The only way Mordrak can separate from his Ghost Knights, becoming his own unit, is if they all die. You can't single Mordrak out in melee combat. He is a fundamental part of the squad.

If Mordrak is purchased and ghost knights are purchased the doesn't that make the unit "Grand master mordraks Ghost knights"?
If you purchase Mordrak and ghost knights does the units name change to Ghost knights? With mordrak being a separate, named model in that unit. Such as a tac marine sergeant or a sanguinary novitiate in a unit of honour guard.
This is how it reads to me, but it doesn't spell it out specifically so there doesn't appear to be any way to know for sure. The Grand strategy ability seems to imply that the unit name changes to Ghost knights, but it's only circumstantial.

NecronLord3 wrote: therefore not limited to USR of fearless that pertains to characters joined to a unit.

Page 91, his sidebar about halfway down:

Unit Type:
Infantry (character)

Now check my quote on fearless from the rulebook.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:If Mordrak is purchased and ghost knights are purchased the doesn't that make the unit "Grand master mordraks Ghost knights"?
If you purchase Mordrak and ghost knights does the units name change to Ghost knights? With mordrak being a separate, named model in that unit. Such as a tac marine sergeant or a sanguinary novitiate in a unit of honour guard.
This is how it reads to me, but it doesn't spell it out specifically so there doesn't appear to be any way to know for sure. The Grand strategy ability seems to imply that the unit name changes to Ghost knights, but it's only circumstantial.

Well, do this: Assume that there is no rule put into the codex at the time of it's printing deliberately designed to never come in to play. This is excluding anomalies where Old One Eye has special rules he can't use because he's still a Carnifex at the end of the day. There is only one circumstance that the "Mordrak's Ghost Knights" exclusion clause can come in to play. Why on EARTH shouldn't it be followed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, rereading it, it does say that Mordrak acts as the upgrade character for a Ghost Knight squad if you buy any, so yeah, I gotta say that they're "Mordrak's Ghost Knights" through and through.

The rule clearly comes into play with regard to the scouting ability of Grand Strategy. If all members are not scouts then the unit cannot scout. However, one member can be scoring in a unit that is not scoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:

It occurs to me that you might just be failing to understand the rules at a fundamental level. That would explain the confusion. You realize this isn't a retinue or anything weird like that, right? The only way Mordrak can separate from his Ghost Knights, becoming his own unit, is if they all die. You can't single Mordrak out in melee combat. He is a fundamental part of the squad.

I understand the rules quite well thank you. You seem to being having trouble with the english language. Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights is not mutulally inclusive of Mordrak. Just as my car is "Paul's Chevy Cobalt" it does not fail to be Paul's Chevy Cobalt when I am not in it.

NecronLord3 wrote:The rule clearly comes into play with regard to the scouting ability of Grand Strategy. If all members are not scouts then the unit cannot scout. However, one member can be scoring in a unit that is not scoring.

Right. Now provide for me a circumstance where, during any part of the game, including pre-deployment, Mordrak and the Ghost Knights are ever units independent of one-another. You can't, because it doesn't specify. By taking a unit of Ghost Knights, Mordrak automatically becomes the upgrade character for it. It doesn't indicate that this happens before, during, or after the game, because there is no time frame for which they don't exist. The sheer inclusion of them within the list mandates this occurs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:

It occurs to me that you might just be failing to understand the rules at a fundamental level. That would explain the confusion. You realize this isn't a retinue or anything weird like that, right? The only way Mordrak can separate from his Ghost Knights, becoming his own unit, is if they all die. You can't single Mordrak out in melee combat. He is a fundamental part of the squad.

I understand the rules quite well thank you. You seem to being having trouble with the english language. Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights is not mutulally inclusive of Mordrak. Just as my car is "Paul's Chevy Cobalt" it does not fail to be Paul's Chevy Cobalt when I am not in it.

Your Cobalt doesn't have a special rule stating that it ceases to exist the moment you're not in it, or at least, I assume it doesn't. Per the last line in Ghostly Bodyguard on page 40, it reads to me as though Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights is quite 'mutulally' inclusive of Mordrak. Since I have trouble with the english language though, do explain to me when, precisely and with game terminology please, Ghost Knights exist NOT as a function of Mordrak.

Odd that this is debated since it stated in the first faq mordrak's ghostly bodyguard could not be made scoring. Even if mordrak himself could be made scoring as soon as he gains a ghost the scoring is nulified. That'd be kinda a waste.