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OK lets look at this NC worships their leader as a god
(God is sitting drinking some tea, 5 terminators all the sudden in the room small arms fire bounces off armor, terminator sergent pops gods head like a grape, terminators walk outside, thunderhawk out of no where while orbital bombs are striking key air defences terminators get on thunderhawk fly away, all north korea is in a craze killing eachother simply because their god just got thwapped) now you have all of first company to take care of iran.....terminators win

Surtur wrote:
How tightly compact are their lines? You list off these rather massive numbers, but they require space to put them.

Does it matter? Lets say you send in a wave of 1,000 dudes and kill 1 terminator. You can do that 1,500 times. Hell, shear number of bodies will stop LR's and Dreads eventually.

By the way, the numbers I posted are for active military. If you factor in equip-able reserves, you effectively double the number of standard troops.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Assuming they have a ship up high capable of teleporting the Terminators (even without it using its guns), they have a fair chance of being able to destroy the North Korean and Iranian communication and control networks as well as their leadership. Organising a resistance would be very difficult, but guerillia warfare could still easily occur and the Terminators would not have much of a chance at hunting them down.

In a straight up fight, the North Koreans and Iranians would probably win due to terrain as much as anything. i doubt the Terminators would be able to continue moving through the bombardment as it turns the ground to mush.

not true they'd just go on a purge and make north Korean and Iran burn to nothing.

terrain wouldnt matter either they battle on death worlds and have fought countless vitories against all odd to become a member of the Deathwing. Meaning that what ever army was up against them would be crushed by there fire power and we all know that N.K would eventually try to launch Nukes, but they'd be one of the first locations to be attacked being a strategic asset to N.K.

Shrike325 wrote: Also, this is discounting air assets (Iran has ~1,000 air assets, NK has ~1,500), anti-tank weapons (~1,500 for Iran, ~7,000 for NK), and tanks (~1,800 for Iran, ~5,500 for NK). So, for the sake of argument, lets assume it takes, oh, I don't know, 250 modern tanks to take out a Land Raider. Well, they've got that covered for 20 LR. How about Dreads? Well, how many can there be? 100 (I think 10 per active company is ridiculously high, but I'll give it to the DA)? So, only 80 modern anti-tank weapons per Dread.

Well it would be one of the first targets on the DW lists along with all other military assets and HRO it would take N.K and Iran's armys too long to reorganize and they would be toast by the time they did.

How well do we think a a jet of any type would hold up against exploding rapid fire shells?

And were all forgetting the about the heroism that these guys have and would throw at them? your talking unimaginary loads of it. both human armys would be so demoralized after ther High Command being wiped and at the sheer sight of a termi that they'd start retreating and fight a running retreat back to a strong point and make a last stand before being utterly destroyed.

If somehow they lost then whatever Battle Barge they have in orbit would annilate the surviving N.K and Iran soilders.

And i doubt they care about collaterial damage while assulting a planet

Interrogator-Chaplin wrote:

Shrike325 wrote: Also, this is discounting air assets (Iran has ~1,000 air assets, NK has ~1,500), anti-tank weapons (~1,500 for Iran, ~7,000 for NK), and tanks (~1,800 for Iran, ~5,500 for NK). So, for the sake of argument, lets assume it takes, oh, I don't know, 250 modern tanks to take out a Land Raider. Well, they've got that covered for 20 LR. How about Dreads? Well, how many can there be? 100 (I think 10 per active company is ridiculously high, but I'll give it to the DA)? So, only 80 modern anti-tank weapons per Dread.

Well it would be one of the first targets on the DW lists along with all other military assets and HRO it would take N.K and Iran's armys too long to reorganize and they would be toast by the time they did.

How well do we think a a jet of any type would hold up against exploding rapid fire shells?

You mean those things that are already in every AA gun in existence? Pretty well, actually.

If somehow they lost then whatever Battle Barge they have in orbit would annilate the surviving N.K and Iran soilders.

And i doubt they care about collaterial damage while assulting a planet

Yes, as always, orbital bombardment wins. You have to, inherently, ignore them when this topic invariably comes up, otherwise there's no point in the discussion.

Furthermore, how much ammo do terminators carry around with them when assaulting someplace? 1,000 rounds? Good, assuming every shot hits and kills its target, you've managed to kill 1/15th of the combined active military of Iran and NK. Hell, due to the number mismatch, I'm pretty sure you could remove the weapons of the NK and Iranian infantry and they would still win.

Shrike325 wrote:

Interrogator-Chaplin wrote:

Shrike325 wrote: Also, this is discounting air assets (Iran has ~1,000 air assets, NK has ~1,500), anti-tank weapons (~1,500 for Iran, ~7,000 for NK), and tanks (~1,800 for Iran, ~5,500 for NK). So, for the sake of argument, lets assume it takes, oh, I don't know, 250 modern tanks to take out a Land Raider. Well, they've got that covered for 20 LR. How about Dreads? Well, how many can there be? 100 (I think 10 per active company is ridiculously high, but I'll give it to the DA)? So, only 80 modern anti-tank weapons per Dread.

Well it would be one of the first targets on the DW lists along with all other military assets and HRO it would take N.K and Iran's armys too long to reorganize and they would be toast by the time they did.

How well do we think a a jet of any type would hold up against exploding rapid fire shells?

You mean those things that are already in every AA gun in existence? Pretty well, actually.

If somehow they lost then whatever Battle Barge they have in orbit would annilate the surviving N.K and Iran soilders.

And i doubt they care about collaterial damage while assulting a planet

Yes, as always, orbital bombardment wins. You have to, inherently, ignore them when this topic invariably comes up, otherwise there's no point in the discussion.

Furthermore, how much ammo do terminators carry around with them when assaulting someplace? 1,000 rounds? Good, assuming every shot hits and kills its target, you've managed to kill 1/15th of the combined active military of Iran and NK. Hell, due to the number mismatch, I'm pretty sure you could remove the weapons of the NK and Iranian infantry and they would still win.

Ok so yes that they do, but thats just standard issue for EVERY SM

You think they'd only kill one person a shot ? if were talking a stand up fight flat terrain no obsticals do you think 1,000 rounds will only kill 1,000 men? explosive shells means every one dies you'd be talking 1 dead between 2-6 wounded.

Not even accounting for the typhoon missile launchers 5+ killed, 5-10+ mamed and anywhere between 5-20 possibly wounded.

and your still not taking into account the morale of N.K and I armies there effectively guardsmen without commissars keeping them in line. and seeign towering figures striding towards you or laser firing tanks rolling forwards srugging off rockets and small arms wouldn't most sane individuals run?

and how long do you think it'll take the termies, landraiders and dreads to close to CC ? thats the only time they'll be vulnerable cause once there in the lines thats it game over NK & Iran all together.

Also wouldnt the DW keep reserves for the first assult ? keeping a few squads in reserve to deep strike key points i.e. artillery ? entrenched positions ? fortified locations? there'd be a tatical approach for everything the army could throw at them.

Interrogator-Chaplin wrote:

and how long do you think it'll take the termies, landraiders and dreads to close to CC ? thats the only time they'll be vulnerable cause once there in the lines thats it game over NK & Iran all together.

Also wouldnt the DW keep reserves for the first assult ? keeping a few squads in reserve to deep strike key points i.e. artillery ? entrenched positions ? fortified locations? there'd be a tatical approach for everything the army could throw at them.

Point 1: I would say an infinite amount of time as real wars don't get fought in CQB (for the most part). And the terminators will be walking, as 250:1 odds against Land Raiders means that the Land Raiders get destroyed pretty quick.

Point 2: How much is going to be kept in reserve? 15%? So, 3 squads? So destroy 3 artillery emplacements? It's just a numbers game, and the SM lose.

Point 3: At no point have I read anywhere in the fluff that bolter shells do anything other than decimate the primary target.

Point 4: Lets assume that each frag missile can kill 10 guys (incredibly unlikely, but sure) per shot. 1 CML per squad (based on maximum allowed per squad, per codex). 12 shots per CML (based off of the model) that's 120 guys per squad, 20 squads gives you 2400 kills, or 0.016% of the total military force against them.

Again, numbers game. I guess I'm just not getting my point across well enough. There Space Marines are outnumbered 35:1 by tanks

However, if you're argument consists of "Terminators are the most awesome thing every and nothing can ever hurt them or Land Raiders and each time they take a step they kill a million dudes" then, I concede.

EDIT: Spelling
EDIT2: Formatting

They defeated an entire Tyranid planetary invasion. Two small, modern Earth armies would be laughable.

Too much time on peoples hands.. lol

Shrike325 wrote:However, if you're argument consists of "Terminators are the most awesome thing every and nothing can ever hurt them or Land Raiders and each time they take a step they kill a million dudes" then, I concede.

No, but It does consist of this:

"The assault cannon epitomizes the deadliness of elite Terminator Squads who teleport behind the enemy's front line and open up fully-automatic fire, spreading carnage and terror."

20 or so terminators teleporting behind enemy lines and "spreading carnage and terror." makes the modern day forces run away crying.

Not to mention the Terminators with These.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_Cannon

For the ones saying Iran/North Korea would win do to sheer numbers, even if you discount vehicles and ships in orbit you have to factor in the tactical and strategic brilliance that is Belial and compare it to the leadership of Iran/NK.

How soon does a force of 100 get found? If they are found how quickly can they bring sufficient forces to bear to defeat that force. Then factor in the morale effects of 10ft tall walking death machines that shrug off rpg hits. Or what about the techmarine that cripples their communication structure? Or the librarians attached to the force?

After you have factored all of that in you then need to think about what the rest of the world is doing in response to this incursion? Once communication is established and their mission parameters verified it is very likely the US and other countries would move in to back them up.

Also take a look at when most countries surrender. What is their casualty %? I bet its much less than 100%, in fact I bet its less than 50%. If we are talking total destruction of population then yeah deathwing would lose out eventually, but if we are just discussing getting them to surrender then deathwing would win pretty handily. Also how likely is it that whatever country gets invaded second would even want to put up a fight knowing that it only took 100 guys to defeat the first?

They would teleport, kill the leaders and laugh about it.

rockerbikie wrote:They would teleport, kill the leaders and laugh about it.

For added giggles, they send false orders out to artillery batteries to open fire on friendly units.

The Deathwing's greatest strength is their ability to teleport into the heart of the enemy command and control and destroy it. Cut off the head and then perform hit and run raids on military formations that are resting or at ease.

At the end of the day say all DW died do you really not think that the battlebarge wouldint just glass the planet or call for the rest of the DA to reck vengence on this pathetic planet. I.E SM win

The underlying issue is how to translate modern weapons into 40k stats.

Let's take an AK-47.

The effective range of an AK-47 is 400m. That's about 200 times the height of a human. In 40k, an average miniature is about 1.25" tall. So, an AK-47 translates to a range of 250".

The rate of fire of an AK-47 600 rounds per minute. But, that doesn't include time to switch magazines, or having it on semi-auto mode or anything like that. The effective rate of fire is more like 100 rounds per minute. In a turn, a human running can cover a maximum of 12" (or ~60 feet), so that takes about 2 seconds. So, an AK-47 being fired slowly and purposefully would translate to being assault 3.

The AP is nearly impossible to determine, as we don't have anything to translate AP values to real values. So, assume it's AP-.

The Strength is also rather difficult to determine. The little we know is that the well-trained human is S3, and the strongest human (Harker) is S4. If you assume Harker can double the punching power of an well-trained human (a really amazing feat), and that the S scale is exponential (an increase in 1S is a doubling of the impact), we can do some rough translations. If we assume an AK-47 can penetrate 100 times better than a human fist (rather low, IMO, but it's a safe number) than we end up with the S of the AK as about 10.

So, an AK-47 is 40k terms has the following profile: 250" S10 AP- Assault 3.


Oh, and there's a million of them. I think that's sufficient to take care of any silly terminators.

I think you'll find the 1st Company actually consists of 100 Veterans, whatever dreadnoughts and their captain.

There are no Land Raiders, Chapter Master, Librarian, Chaplain or Thunderhawks or Battlebarge/Strike Cruiser in the 1st Company.

The Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are assigned to the Armoury.

The Battle Barges/Strike Cruisers are part of the Chapter fleet and not the 1st company.

The Chapter Master, any and all Librarians and any and all Chaplains are a seperate part of the Chapter.

They wouldn' be able to teleport as their ships are used to do that which they don't have because they aren't a part of the 1st company.

Using this as a base we can safely assume that the terminators are forced to walk about (They wouldn't be able to drive anything due to lack of space in any vehicle to accomodate them) and would be fairly easy to hit with aircraft and artillery. Whether that would do enough damage by the time they finally reached their lines i'm not sure.
AFAIK North Korea also have nuclear weapons...

Grakmar wrote:Bunch of pointless stuff about range

Range in 40k is specifically not linear.

Something 24" away is not twice as far as something 12" away. It's much further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:we end up with the S of the AK as about 10.

Yeah, cause Ak-47s totally own tanks?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Bunch of pointless stuff about range

Range in 40k is specifically not linear.

Something 24" away is not twice as far as something 12" away. It's much further.

I've heard that, but it makes no sense. Assume there's 3 units all armed with 12" guns and separated by 12" each in a straight line. A-12"-B-12"-C

Unit A is in range of Unit B. Unit B is in range of Unit A and Unit C. Unit C is in range of Unit B. There's no way that C can be more than twice the distance from A that it is from B.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grakmar wrote:we end up with the S of the AK as about 10.

Yeah, cause Ak-47s totally own tanks?

They're pretty worthless against modern tanks. But, by my estimates, they should decimate 40k tanks.

So, modern tanks must have armor values in the 20s or higher.

Ah, I get it. You're a troll.

purplefood wrote:I think you'll find the 1st Company actually consists of 100 Veterans, whatever dreadnoughts and their captain.

There are no Land Raiders, Chapter Master, Librarian, Chaplain or Thunderhawks or Battlebarge/Strike Cruiser in the 1st Company.

The Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are assigned to the Armoury.

This says otherwise:
Land raiders are listed as 1st Company
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels#.T0P3MsWXR2A

I'd give it to the DA. Why? Force concentration.

The Dark Angels 1st company is the killing power and survivability of an armored corps, concentrated into a footprint smaller than a modern mechanized company. You cannot bring a million men to bear on them. You can't even bring ten thousand men to bear on them, at any given time. Assuming that they can deploy via teleport, they get to choose where they will attack. They land at will, destroy their target, and leave at once. Nothing but wreckage.

Day one of the invasion, the heads of state and chief military commanders of both nations are dead. Command and control disintegrates. Precision assaults destroy command centers, smash highways, and cut lines of communication. The militaries of the nations involved are incapable of concentrating, cannot pass orders effectively, and have no target even if they could manage to get themselves organized

After that, large groups and military bases are methodically annihilated. A hundred Terminators teleport down, smash a base or supply depot, scatter or kill the soldiers stationed there, and return to orbit only to do it again a couple of hours later somewhere else. There is no way to intercept or stop them. Any concentration of military force is simply smashed; get a division together in one place? Oh look, suddenly Terminators appear, destroy your headquarters unit, blow up your motor pool, and hammer your camp flat. They won't even bother to actually kill most of the soldiers, just wipe out the leaders and send the rest running.

After the first precision strikes, it's just a mop-up operation. Now, if the question was whether the Deathwing could HOLD North Korea and Iran after wiping out their military forces, that would be a different story.

purplefood wrote:
Yeah but it's not like they could move that quickly...

Personal teleporters.

As for OP - Terminators, no contest.
Our modern military ( even those as advanced as US army ) suck in comparison to regular Imperial Guard. ( Guard Regiments are formed from the best of PDf, adn PDF is equal to our modern military. )
In short - countless ordinary troops against 100 veterans that are hundreds of years old and yield armor so tough that only concentrated heavy weapon fore had any real chance of breaking trough it, plus they yield weapons that fire mini cannon round on autofire and are also equipped with personal teleporters and such. I say that after seeing how 3-% of their army was wasted the rest 70% will run like hell to save their lives.

But one question - why North Korea and Iran?
Why not US and China or Russia?

For the sake of this debate, are we to assume the 1st Company is 'by itself' with no support? As pointed out before, that means no teleportation and perhaps no adequate resupplies, among other things.

The only way I see them prevailing is leadership assassination, but that's a tricky feat without proper intel.

Ronin-Sage wrote:For the sake of this debate, are we to assume the 1st Company is 'by itself' with no support? As pointed out before, that means no teleportation and perhaps no adequate resupplies, among other things.

Doesn't Terminator armor itself come with personal teleporter?
And only OP can make rules.

Brother Coa wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:For the sake of this debate, are we to assume the 1st Company is 'by itself' with no support? As pointed out before, that means no teleportation and perhaps no adequate resupplies, among other things.

Doesn't Terminator armor itself come with personal teleporter?
And only OP can make rules.

The equipment is there for the 'sheer' act of teleportation, but teleporting in 40k requires a *lot* of the right kind of the support to be effective, let alone safe.

Shrike325 wrote:Think of it this way, folks. You're talking 100 terminators, against 1.1 MILLION grunts (that is the standing military of North Korea). I'm pretty sure that we win due to attrition. I'm sorry, but even Terminators can't beat 10,000 to 1 odds.

Fixed that for you, please do not humiliate Imperial Guard by comparing it to our army's.

Honestly, once the threat is realized, it seems like an earth army could bring some anti-tank missiles to bear and end the threat.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Honestly, once the threat is realized, it seems like an earth army could bring some anti-tank missiles to bear and end the threat.

If that were to be so simple then nothing would be able to beat Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40000.

I think, given the scenario, that both sides lose.

North Korea, upon hearing about this invasion from a group of crazy looking giants, doesn't jump to the conclusion that they're being attacked by space soldiers from the far future. Instead, they assume this is an attack from S.Korea and/or the US. So, they respond by attacking, not the DA, but S.Korea and Japan. They launch nukes taking out several major cities. The US responds by launching a nuclear attack and wiping out N. Korea and the poor terminators as well.

So, both sides get wiped out completely. The only question is: How does China respond to the US nuking N.Korea?

Ronin-Sage wrote:Honestly, once the threat is realized, it seems like an earth army could bring some anti-tank missiles to bear and end the threat.

How?

If you assume the Deathwing is totally isolated from their support, then yes, they'll lose eventually. Any military formation on Earth or any other planet will lose a war without any support. They run out of ammunition, their armor accumulates damage, eventually they are no longer combat capable.

With a battle barge in orbit capable of orbital bombardment, of course, they win.

With a battle barge in orbit but orbital bombardment being somehow unavailable, they still win; teleportation is too massive an advantage to be overcome.

With no teleportation but regular resupply. . . actually, I think they STILL win. 'Bringing some anti-tank missiles to bear' is not as easy as you think. The Terminators are bigger than humans, yes, but nothing like so big as tanks, and they are far more agile. Actually HITTING a Terminator with an anti-tank weapon would be something of a trick. . . and if you don't hit them dead on, they aren't going to die.

Furthermore, please remember, this is 100 infantry we're discussing, potentially with some Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders in support. This is a smaller group than an average mechanized company. You literally cannot attack them with more than a few thousand men at a time; you simply can't pack more bodies than that into a small enough space to effectively engage. The Deathwing doesn't need to fight 1.1 million men; they need to fight three or four thousand men. Furthermore, the attack will absolutely not be pressed to the last men, because very, very few people are suicidal. The mere ability to move while under fire that Terminator armor grants the Deathwing is a priceless tactical advantage; you can't suppress Terminators the way you can normal infantry, and anyone who tries is just asking for a storm bolter shell to the solar plexus.

Brother Coa wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:Honestly, once the threat is realized, it seems like an earth army could bring some anti-tank missiles to bear and end the threat.

If that were to be so simple then nothing would be able to beat Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40000.

Except that 40k narratives have the luxury of not having to adhere to realism. Realism takes a backseat to either a [hopefully good] story being told or coolness, so we can't observe 40k and draw any conclusions other than "this is what the writers thought would be appropriate or balanced or cool"(and hopefully throw "make sense" in there).