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In an odd twist of fate, I'm siding with the Koreans. if we put them on a big field like 40K and see who kills who first, the Koreans will win. They can put a helluva lot more lead in the air a helluva lot faster. Also take into account the effect the Artillery will have not so much on the vehicles but on the field itself. if you can blast a big enough, deep enough circle out of the ground, they are immobile. then its just a case of dropping enough ordinance on 'em to kill 'em.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:Honestly, once the threat is realized, it seems like an earth army could bring some anti-tank missiles to bear and end the threat.

How?

If you assume the Deathwing is totally isolated from their support, then yes, they'll lose eventually. Any military formation on Earth or any other planet will lose a war without any support. They run out of ammunition, their armor accumulates damage, eventually they are no longer combat capable.

With a battle barge in orbit capable of orbital bombardment, of course, they win.

With a battle barge in orbit but orbital bombardment being somehow unavailable, they still win; teleportation is too massive an advantage to be overcome.

With no teleportation but regular resupply. . . actually, I think they STILL win. 'Bringing some anti-tank missiles to bear' is not as easy as you think. The Terminators are bigger than humans, yes, but nothing like so big as tanks, and they are far more agile. Actually HITTING a Terminator with an anti-tank weapon would be something of a trick. . . and if you don't hit them dead on, they aren't going to die.

Furthermore, please remember, this is 100 infantry we're discussing, potentially with some Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders in support. This is a smaller group than an average mechanized company. You literally cannot attack them with more than a few thousand men at a time; you simply can't pack more bodies than that into a small enough space to effectively engage. The Deathwing doesn't need to fight 1.1 million men; they need to fight three or four thousand men. Furthermore, the attack will absolutely not be pressed to the last men, because very, very few people are suicidal. The mere ability to move while under fire that Terminator armor grants the Deathwing is a priceless tactical advantage; you can't suppress Terminators the way you can normal infantry, and anyone who tries is just asking for a storm bolter shell to the solar plexus.

My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Obviously if you attack them with tactics fitting of traitor guardsmen in a black library novel, you're going to take some some heavy losses, but this isn't a black library novel.

Ronin-Sage wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:Honestly, once the threat is realized, it seems like an earth army could bring some anti-tank missiles to bear and end the threat.

How?

If you assume the Deathwing is totally isolated from their support, then yes, they'll lose eventually. Any military formation on Earth or any other planet will lose a war without any support. They run out of ammunition, their armor accumulates damage, eventually they are no longer combat capable.

With a battle barge in orbit capable of orbital bombardment, of course, they win.

With a battle barge in orbit but orbital bombardment being somehow unavailable, they still win; teleportation is too massive an advantage to be overcome.

With no teleportation but regular resupply. . . actually, I think they STILL win. 'Bringing some anti-tank missiles to bear' is not as easy as you think. The Terminators are bigger than humans, yes, but nothing like so big as tanks, and they are far more agile. Actually HITTING a Terminator with an anti-tank weapon would be something of a trick. . . and if you don't hit them dead on, they aren't going to die.

Furthermore, please remember, this is 100 infantry we're discussing, potentially with some Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders in support. This is a smaller group than an average mechanized company. You literally cannot attack them with more than a few thousand men at a time; you simply can't pack more bodies than that into a small enough space to effectively engage. The Deathwing doesn't need to fight 1.1 million men; they need to fight three or four thousand men. Furthermore, the attack will absolutely not be pressed to the last men, because very, very few people are suicidal. The mere ability to move while under fire that Terminator armor grants the Deathwing is a priceless tactical advantage; you can't suppress Terminators the way you can normal infantry, and anyone who tries is just asking for a storm bolter shell to the solar plexus.

My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Obviously if you attack them with tactics fitting of traitor guardsmen in a black library novel, you're going to take some some heavy losses, but this isn't a black library novel.

They have Tank Armor as suits.

Their CCW's kill instantly and can cut through a tank like butter.

Having a LR fire at you is demoralizing as hell.

Having a hundred walking tanks appear out of nowhere and kill everyone is pretty fething demoralizing as well.

Ronin-Sage wrote:
My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Wait, are you saying that Terminator efficiency would drop in reality?
Is it not logical that if they are bad-ass in 40k that they will also be bad-ass in reality?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ronin-Sage wrote:
Except that 40k narratives have the luxury of not having to adhere to realism. Realism takes a backseat to either a [hopefully good] story being told or coolness, so we can't observe 40k and draw any conclusions other than "this is what the writers thought would be appropriate or balanced or cool"(and hopefully throw "make sense" in there).

Exept that 40k opponents are NOT HUMANS most of the times.
That is realism right there - all alien races are tougher then regular Human and thus require a lot more firepower to die.
Adn that is why i am siding with Termies, if they were real nothing but nukes and railguns would beat them down.

More Nukes? and the moral issue with the termies and LR and Dreads would be huge

imho if i saw a "walking Tank" i'd be going the other way espcally if im armed with a ak-47 and no armour...

Brother Coa wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:
My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Wait, are you saying that Terminator efficiency would drop in reality?
Is it not logical that if they are bad-ass in 40k that they will also be bad-ass in reality?

No, because real-life doesn't have to follow some pre-determined narrative that ends the way the writers want it, and doesn't have to be 'cool' or dark or anything else -- reality is what it is.

I'm not arguing that 1st company wouldn't be effective to a degree(obviously they would), but without proper support, they wouldn't prevail any against sufficiently powerful modern army*.

An additional point: it should be noted that any(or rather many) time we see a force like 1st company detailed in fluff, it's likely with support from the IG and navy, and it's a perhaps a scenario where SMs were brought in to apply concentrated force to a particular area, not take on a entire country themselves(I'm not saying this has never happened or isn't possible with a helluva lot of chapter support, but it the usecase for SMs being elite shock troops make more sense, IMO).

*Unless they could cripple leadership(...somehow)

Ronin-Sage wrote:

My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Obviously if you attack them with tactics fitting of traitor guardsmen in a black library novel, you're going to take some some heavy losses, but this isn't a black library novel.

I repeat; how?

You can't pin them down. Suppressive fire does not frighten a man wearing a tank. Attempting to do so only exposes the shooter to RETURN fire, which is much more effective because the Terminator has a much better weapon and is a much better shot. As a result, any infantry unit that comes into contact is likely to be suppressed HARD and seriously demoralized practically as soon as the first shots are fired.

Fighting in heavy cover, to try and minimize the amount of explosive shells they're laying down, backfires badly; they can move through cover much more easily than you can, and if they close to melee range you are well and truly screwed. On the plus side, they will take longer to kill you.

Fighting in the open, on the other hand, magnifies your casualties enormously. Bolters, as they are described in the fluff, are EXCELLENT long-range weapons; storm bolters, being simply two bolters firing simultaneously, will probably be capable of putting out a devastating hail of fire at ranges exceeding the normal engagement range of a modern battle rifle. This is exacerbated by the fact that, once again, the Deathwing are MUCH better shots than North Korean infantrymen are.

Modern armor is designed to fight other armored units, not infantrymen. Good luck hitting the Terminators with the main cannon, because that's what you'll need to kill them; they, meanwhile, are methodically laying down storm bolter, CML and assault cannon fire which is tearing your treads to pieces, dismounting your machine guns, and probably scoring kills at a fairly high rate. Not like the Deathwing hasn't ever fought armored units before.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:

My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Obviously if you attack them with tactics fitting of traitor guardsmen in a black library novel, you're going to take some some heavy losses, but this isn't a black library novel.

I repeat; how?

You can't pin them down. Suppressive fire does not frighten a man wearing a tank. Attempting to do so only exposes the shooter to RETURN fire, which is much more effective because the Terminator has a much better weapon and is a much better shot. As a result, any infantry unit that comes into contact is likely to be suppressed HARD and seriously demoralized practically as soon as the first shots are fired.

Fighting in heavy cover, to try and minimize the amount of explosive shells they're laying down, backfires badly; they can move through cover much more easily than you can, and if they close to melee range you are well and truly screwed. On the plus side, they will take longer to kill you.

Fighting in the open, on the other hand, magnifies your casualties enormously. Bolters, as they are described in the fluff, are EXCELLENT long-range weapons; storm bolters, being simply two bolters firing simultaneously, will probably be capable of putting out a devastating hail of fire at ranges exceeding the normal engagement range of a modern battle rifle. This is exacerbated by the fact that, once again, the Deathwing are MUCH better shots than North Korean infantrymen are.

Modern armor is designed to fight other armored units, not infantrymen. Good luck hitting the Terminators with the main cannon, because that's what you'll need to kill them; they, meanwhile, are methodically laying down storm bolter, CML and assault cannon fire which is tearing your treads to pieces, dismounting your machine guns, and probably scoring kills at a fairly high rate. Not like the Deathwing hasn't ever fought armored units before.

Again, you're assuming my point involves marching several regiments into the fray and saying 'gl; hf guys'.

And you certainly can pin them down. Enough accurate explosives could pin anything down, even a megahero wearing a tank. And the common counter I've seen to what I just amounts to "No, because terminators move too fast to be hit"...that's like saying no modern can ever accurately destroy any target moving the speed of a tank.

Ronin-Sage wrote:

Again, you're assuming my point involves marching several regiments into the fray and saying 'gl; hf guys'.

And you certainly can pin them down. Enough accurate explosives could pin anything down, even a megahero wearing a tank. And the common counter I've seen to what I just amounts to "No, because terminators move too fast to be hit"...that's like saying no modern can ever accurately destroy any target moving the speed of a tank.

I'm not assuming anything of the kind. I am assuming that a large force is attacking the Terminators using sensible modern combined-arms tactics. And they still get massacred.

What I'm saying is, basically, Terminators can do everything modern infantry can do, AND most things that modern armor can do, only way, way better. Take and hold ground? Check. Sweep through built-up environments? Check. Engage effectively at short, medium and long ranges? Check, check, check. Morale effects? Practically nonexistent. Mobility limitations? Highly uncommon; what they can't go around they can walk over, what they can't walk over they can carve through with power/chain fists.

Hitting a 9 meters long by 3 meters tall by 4 meters wide tank with a shell from a cannon is quite doable with modern targeting technology. You can get a pretty decent hit percentage even if your vehicle is moving itself. However, hitting a 3 meters tall by 2 meter wide by 1 meters thick PERSON with that same shell. . . is a different thing entirely. Artillery and tank cannons, when used against infantry, do NOT kill them by hitting dead on. They kill them by exploding and hitting them with shrapnel and a shockwave, or spreading flechettes. The problem being that weapons systems designed to kill infantry will not kill Terminators effectively.

Don't think about Terminators as infantry. They aren't. They are MBTs with the mobility of infantry.

Ronin-Sage wrote:
My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Also don't forget, the Thunderhawks they ride in can't fly in the real world since they have the same aerodynamics as Thunderbird 2, meaning that if they are deployed to land armour etc. they'd probably plummet to the Earth and lose half their equipment.

But anyway, it's impossible to say since we don't have real world equivalents of Terminators or Land Raiders so this sort of question is kinda redundant. In a massive pitched battle where both sides bring everything they have to bear like in one big Apocalypse battle? The Iranians and North Koreans probably have that one in the bag through sheer weight of firepower.

If it's more of a tactical campaign? The Dark Angels would probably win, they would just teleport in and destroy the leaders before picking apart the armies piecemeal. You can't really beat mobility of teleporters with modern technology.

Snarky wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:
My argument is this: yes, 1st company is certainly bad-ass, but they're bad-ass within 40k. The minute you translate them into the real-world, and you have real-world tactics and equipment being brought to bear, they wouldn't prevail.

Also don't forget, the Thunderhawks they ride in can't fly in the real world since they have the same aerodynamics as Thunderbird 2, meaning that if they are deployed to land armour etc. they'd probably plummet to the Earth and lose half their equipment.

But anyway, it's impossible to say since we don't have real world equivalents of Terminators or Land Raiders so this sort of question is kinda redundant. In a massive pitched battle where both sides bring everything they have to bear like in one big Apocalypse battle? The Iranians and North Koreans probably have that one in the bag through sheer weight of firepower.

If it's more of a tactical campaign? The Dark Angels would probably win, they would just teleport in and destroy the leaders before picking apart the armies piecemeal. You can't really beat mobility of teleporters with modern technology.

Yes, real-world physics is another thing...

As far as teleporters, I'm under the impression that they won't have access to that, unless the OP meant 1st company + proper support.

Ronin-Sage wrote:

Snarky wrote:
If it's more of a tactical campaign? The Dark Angels would probably win, they would just teleport in and destroy the leaders before picking apart the armies piecemeal. You can't really beat mobility of teleporters with modern technology.

As far as teleporters, I'm under the impression that they won't have access to that, unless the OP meant 1st company + proper support.

It would be quite biased to say one side gets all of the advantages it is used to having while the other side gets none.

Space Marines fight offensive engagements at times and places of their choosing. Any "scenario" that doesn't let them do that is already biased.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:

Snarky wrote:
If it's more of a tactical campaign? The Dark Angels would probably win, they would just teleport in and destroy the leaders before picking apart the armies piecemeal. You can't really beat mobility of teleporters with modern technology.

As far as teleporters, I'm under the impression that they won't have access to that, unless the OP meant 1st company + proper support.

It would be quite biased to say one side gets all of the advantages it is used to having while the other side gets none.

Space Marines fight offensive engagements at times and places of their choosing. Any "scenario" that doesn't let them do that is already biased.

Obviously. The problem is the OP just said '1st company', and I wasn't going to assume he meant 1st + support(which would entail vessels in space, for the teleportation).

I meant 1st Company plus support.

That changes entirely...
The 1st company with support could never lose since we have nothing that can kill a battle barge or strike cruiser...

Yet again DA win. They would just walk through the korean defenses and laughing at their pathetic attempts to destroy their land raiders or their terminators. The enemies the imperium face are 30x harder than any foe we have fought in real life.
And for their vehicles to fall out of orbit? Seriously? you do realize that they have ceramite which resists orbital and stops from being burnt up at all? They would not crash and burn. The thunderhawk would fly over and destroy the entire artillery force of north korea in one blow and the North Koreans and iranians cry as their leaders are ripped apart by power fists.

WHY DOESN'T ANYONE LISTEN?

1.1 million Korean soldiers divided by 100 terminators is 11, 000 Koreans per terminator. Then you have the 480,000 from Iran making the odds 15, 800 Modern Soldiers to the 100 of deathwing.
If you give each one 30 rounds for their AK-47 then that is 474, 000 7.62x39mm per terminator.

Modern Tanks can engage at 4 miles. That gives the Iranian and Korean armoured regiments around about 10 minutes before the terminators reach them. A good crew can fire about 10/15 rpm. That equates to 100/150 per tank. The Iranians have 1, 613, and I am unsure how many the Koreans have, we'll say 1, 500. that gives 189, 113 rounds before the terminators reach them

That gives us 3, 113 x 125mm HE rounds and 474, 000 x 7.62mm AP rounds PER TERMINATOR. Its a numbers game that deathwing cannot win.

The Crusader wrote:WHY DOESN'T ANYONE LISTEN?

1.1 million Korean soldiers divided by 100 terminators is 11, 000 Koreans per terminator. Then you have the 480,000 from Iran making the odds 15, 800 Modern Soldiers to the 100 of deathwing.
If you give each one 30 rounds for their AK-47 then that is 474, 000 7.62x39mm per terminator.

Witch will have the effect on Terminator armor like raindrops have on me while I am having an umbrella.

Modern Tanks can engage at 4 miles. That gives the Iranian and Korean armoured regiments around about 10 minutes before the terminators reach them. A good crew can fire about 10/15 rpm. That equates to 100/150 per tank. The Iranians have 1, 613, and I am unsure how many the Koreans have, we'll say 1, 500. that gives 189, 113 rounds before the terminators reach them

That gives us 3, 113 x 125mm HE rounds and 474, 000 x 7.62mm AP rounds PER TERMINATOR. Its a numbers game that deathwing cannot win.

Terminators don't have personal teleporters...

If it was just the 1st company (As the OP originally said) i'd say that N.Korea and Iran would win.
Since it is the 1st company and their support elements only the DA can win since they have a freacking spaceship which we can't shoot down.
All in all it's a pretty stupid question to ask...

purplefood wrote:Terminators don't have personal teleporters...

If it was just the 1st company (As the OP originally said) i'd say that N.Korea and Iran would win.
Since it is the 1st company and their support elements only the DA can win since they have a freacking spaceship which we can't shoot down.
All in all it's a pretty stupid question to ask...

Completely agreed.

In most 40k vs RL scenarios, RL wins the ground war. 40k wins the space war and wipes us out from orbital bombardment

Has anyone considered that both of the RL armies are made up of conscripts who might run away when confronted with Terminators? The desertion rate for both armies might be a very significant factor.

The Crusader wrote:WHY DOESN'T ANYONE LISTEN?

1.1 million Korean soldiers divided by 100 terminators is 11, 000 Koreans per terminator. Then you have the 480,000 from Iran making the odds 15, 800 Modern Soldiers to the 100 of deathwing.
If you give each one 30 rounds for their AK-47 then that is 474, 000 7.62x39mm per terminator.

Modern Tanks can engage at 4 miles. That gives the Iranian and Korean armoured regiments around about 10 minutes before the terminators reach them. A good crew can fire about 10/15 rpm. That equates to 100/150 per tank. The Iranians have 1, 613, and I am unsure how many the Koreans have, we'll say 1, 500. that gives 189, 113 rounds before the terminators reach them

That gives us 3, 113 x 125mm HE rounds and 474, 000 x 7.62mm AP rounds PER TERMINATOR. Its a numbers game that deathwing cannot win.

People are listening; it's just that you're wrong.

Raw numbers mean nothing in warfare. Absolutely nothing. You CANNOT pit 15,800 soldiers against a single Terminator. You cannot pack 3,000 tanks into a small enough area to effectively engage 100 Terminators. Your numbers game is totally irrelevant. What's relevant is that the Deathwing can put a massive amount of firepower into a very small footprint, and the armies arranged against them cannot.

The vast, vast majority of those huge armies simply will not be engaged. Certainly, they will not be engaged simultaneously. You are fighting the numerical equivalent of a SINGLE COMPANY. Hell, most of the army won't even be able to find them, let alone open fire! If you packed 1.58 million men into the smallest possible space, assuming each one was 2 feet wide and 1 foot thick, they would take up more than 16,000 square kilometers. Only an absolutely miniscule fraction would be able to engage the Terminators even if they deployed like Napoleonic-era musketeers!

Small-arms fire has most of its effect through suppression; bullets force people to duck, which means they aren't shooting back and you can maneuver unimpeded. Except that against Terminators, it won't. Any rifle-armed infantry who opens fire on a Terminator will, rather, be suppressed themselves by all the rapid-fire RPGs that immediately open up on them. And since the Deathwing are multi-decade veterans at least, most of that poor unit will probably die immediately. And the next. And the next. And the next. And after a very short time, the infantry will STOP ATTACKING, because they've noticed that the last five hundred guys who engaged the Deathwing got mowed down and the survivors are fleeing for their lives.

Which leaves the armor, and brings up the problem that I've pointed out over and over; if you've got armor heavy enough to deflect shrapnel and machine-gun rounds, which Terminators do, then armor SUCKS against infantry. That big, tank-killing cannon? Can't hit the Terminators with it. Unless they use a flechette or frag shell, in which case they can hit. . . and it doesn't matter. Why would the Deathwing ever fight armor in the open field? Screw that, stick to the forests, the mountains, and the cities. Make the armor come to THEM, and then they can pick them off at leisure.

And on top of all of this, you have the morale factor. The Deathwing? Their morale isn't going to break. Period. They're the Deathwing. The North Korean army? The Iranian army? After a hundred guys kill a few thousand infantry and maybe a couple dozen tanks, I guarantee that most of the rest will be more interested in finding a place to hide than they will be in continuing to try and fight the giant men wearing tanks on their back and laying down RPG-submachine gun fire.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
People are listening; it's just that you're wrong.

WIN!!!

BeRzErKeR wrote:

The Crusader wrote:WHY DOESN'T ANYONE LISTEN?

1.1 million Korean soldiers divided by 100 terminators is 11, 000 Koreans per terminator. Then you have the 480,000 from Iran making the odds 15, 800 Modern Soldiers to the 100 of deathwing.
If you give each one 30 rounds for their AK-47 then that is 474, 000 7.62x39mm per terminator.

Modern Tanks can engage at 4 miles. That gives the Iranian and Korean armoured regiments around about 10 minutes before the terminators reach them. A good crew can fire about 10/15 rpm. That equates to 100/150 per tank. The Iranians have 1, 613, and I am unsure how many the Koreans have, we'll say 1, 500. that gives 189, 113 rounds before the terminators reach them

That gives us 3, 113 x 125mm HE rounds and 474, 000 x 7.62mm AP rounds PER TERMINATOR. Its a numbers game that deathwing cannot win.

People are listening; it's just that you're wrong.

Raw numbers mean nothing in warfare. Absolutely nothing. You CANNOT pit 15,800 soldiers against a single Terminator. You cannot pack 3,000 tanks into a small enough area to effectively engage 100 Terminators. Your numbers game is totally irrelevant. What's relevant is that the Deathwing can put a massive amount of firepower into a very small footprint, and the armies arranged against them cannot.

The vast, vast majority of those huge armies simply will not be engaged. Certainly, they will not be engaged simultaneously. You are fighting the numerical equivalent of a SINGLE COMPANY. Hell, most of the army won't even be able to find them, let alone open fire! If you packed 1.58 million men into the smallest possible space, assuming each one was 2 feet wide and 1 foot thick, they would take up more than 16,000 square kilometers. Only an absolutely miniscule fraction would be able to engage the Terminators even if they deployed like Napoleonic-era musketeers!

Small-arms fire has most of its effect through suppression; bullets force people to duck, which means they aren't shooting back and you can maneuver unimpeded. Except that against Terminators, it won't. Any rifle-armed infantry who opens fire on a Terminator will, rather, be suppressed themselves by all the rapid-fire RPGs that immediately open up on them. And since the Deathwing are multi-decade veterans at least, most of that poor unit will probably die immediately. And the next. And the next. And the next. And after a very short time, the infantry will STOP ATTACKING, because they've noticed that the last five hundred guys who engaged the Deathwing got mowed down and the survivors are fleeing for their lives.

Which leaves the armor, and brings up the problem that I've pointed out over and over; if you've got armor heavy enough to deflect shrapnel and machine-gun rounds, which Terminators do, then armor SUCKS against infantry. That big, tank-killing cannon? Can't hit the Terminators with it. Unless they use a flechette or frag shell, in which case they can hit. . . and it doesn't matter. Why would the Deathwing ever fight armor in the open field? Screw that, stick to the forests, the mountains, and the cities. Make the armor come to THEM, and then they can pick them off at leisure.

And on top of all of this, you have the morale factor. The Deathwing? Their morale isn't going to break. Period. They're the Deathwing. The North Korean army? The Iranian army? After a hundred guys kill a few thousand infantry and maybe a couple dozen tanks, I guarantee that most of the rest will be more interested in finding a place to hide than they will be in continuing to try and fight the giant men wearing tanks on their back and laying down RPG-submachine gun fire.

/thread.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Small-arms fire has most of its effect through suppression; bullets force people to duck, which means they aren't shooting back and you can maneuver unimpeded.

Factoid of the thread: the coalition actions in Afghanistan and Iraq produced one dead insurgent for every quarter-million rounds fired. That's one unarmored human; not a space marine in Terminator armor.

People are listening; it's just that you're wrong.

Raw numbers mean nothing in warfare. Absolutely nothing. You CANNOT pit 15,800 soldiers against a single Terminator. You cannot pack 3,000 tanks into a small enough area to effectively engage 100 Terminators. Your numbers game is totally irrelevant. What's relevant is that the Deathwing can put a massive amount of firepower into a very small footprint, and the armies arranged against them cannot.

The vast, vast majority of those huge armies simply will not be engaged. Certainly, they will not be engaged simultaneously. You are fighting the numerical equivalent of a SINGLE COMPANY. Hell, most of the army won't even be able to find them, let alone open fire! If you packed 1.58 million men into the smallest possible space, assuming each one was 2 feet wide and 1 foot thick, they would take up more than 16,000 square kilometers. Only an absolutely miniscule fraction would be able to engage the Terminators even if they deployed like Napoleonic-era musketeers!

Small-arms fire has most of its effect through suppression; bullets force people to duck, which means they aren't shooting back and you can maneuver unimpeded. Except that against Terminators, it won't. Any rifle-armed infantry who opens fire on a Terminator will, rather, be suppressed themselves by all the rapid-fire RPGs that immediately open up on them. And since the Deathwing are multi-decade veterans at least, most of that poor unit will probably die immediately. And the next. And the next. And the next. And after a very short time, the infantry will STOP ATTACKING, because they've noticed that the last five hundred guys who engaged the Deathwing got mowed down and the survivors are fleeing for their lives.

Which leaves the armor, and brings up the problem that I've pointed out over and over; if you've got armor heavy enough to deflect shrapnel and machine-gun rounds, which Terminators do, then armor SUCKS against infantry. That big, tank-killing cannon? Can't hit the Terminators with it. Unless they use a flechette or frag shell, in which case they can hit. . . and it doesn't matter. Why would the Deathwing ever fight armor in the open field? Screw that, stick to the forests, the mountains, and the cities. Make the armor come to THEM, and then they can pick them off at leisure.

And on top of all of this, you have the morale factor. The Deathwing? Their morale isn't going to break. Period. They're the Deathwing. The North Korean army? The Iranian army? After a hundred guys kill a few thousand infantry and maybe a couple dozen tanks, I guarantee that most of the rest will be more interested in finding a place to hide than they will be in continuing to try and fight the giant men wearing tanks on their back and laying down RPG-submachine gun fire.

I agree 100%

Thank you finally someone else agrees with me morale would plummet like a rock in the ocean....

And termies stratigies would be superiour to that of RL soldiers.

Just to clairfy from my ealier posts i'm not one of those people who think termies are the best models ever. they have there flaw's if there not used properly... but they can utterly destroy 100,000 at a time easly i mean they fight 'nids for feths sake.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

People are listening; it's just that you're wrong.

Raw numbers mean nothing in warfare. Absolutely nothing. You CANNOT pit 15,800 soldiers against a single Terminator. You cannot pack 3,000 tanks into a small enough area to effectively engage 100 Terminators. Your numbers game is totally irrelevant. What's relevant is that the Deathwing can put a massive amount of firepower into a very small footprint, and the armies arranged against them cannot.

The vast, vast majority of those huge armies simply will not be engaged. Certainly, they will not be engaged simultaneously. You are fighting the numerical equivalent of a SINGLE COMPANY. Hell, most of the army won't even be able to find them, let alone open fire! If you packed 1.58 million men into the smallest possible space, assuming each one was 2 feet wide and 1 foot thick, they would take up more than 16,000 square kilometers. Only an absolutely miniscule fraction would be able to engage the Terminators even if they deployed like Napoleonic-era musketeers!

Small-arms fire has most of its effect through suppression; bullets force people to duck, which means they aren't shooting back and you can maneuver unimpeded. Except that against Terminators, it won't. Any rifle-armed infantry who opens fire on a Terminator will, rather, be suppressed themselves by all the rapid-fire RPGs that immediately open up on them. And since the Deathwing are multi-decade veterans at least, most of that poor unit will probably die immediately. And the next. And the next. And the next. And after a very short time, the infantry will STOP ATTACKING, because they've noticed that the last five hundred guys who engaged the Deathwing got mowed down and the survivors are fleeing for their lives.

Which leaves the armor, and brings up the problem that I've pointed out over and over; if you've got armor heavy enough to deflect shrapnel and machine-gun rounds, which Terminators do, then armor SUCKS against infantry. That big, tank-killing cannon? Can't hit the Terminators with it. Unless they use a flechette or frag shell, in which case they can hit. . . and it doesn't matter. Why would the Deathwing ever fight armor in the open field? Screw that, stick to the forests, the mountains, and the cities. Make the armor come to THEM, and then they can pick them off at leisure.

And on top of all of this, you have the morale factor. The Deathwing? Their morale isn't going to break. Period. They're the Deathwing. The North Korean army? The Iranian army? After a hundred guys kill a few thousand infantry and maybe a couple dozen tanks, I guarantee that most of the rest will be more interested in finding a place to hide than they will be in continuing to try and fight the giant men wearing tanks on their back and laying down RPG-submachine gun fire.

Awesome quote is awesome.
Modern weapons will suck against the sci-fi weapons. Their armor is made out of a material that is a combination of many elements making it stronger as I am guessing here but it is a plasteel with ceramite. Ceramite is theorized on being adamantium equalivent. So Titaninum + Diamond + many other materials such as carbon. Adding to a stronger material.
So Our bullets which are copper, iron, plastic and thermite tipped. Will just bounce off.

Bolters shoot a specially tipped bullet. That then explodes after impact... After. Not before. After...
None of our guns can do that.
(except for two that are in development and prototype mode but they are extremely ineffective at the moment. *not enough ammunition*)

Land Raiders than also fire focused beams of light that are tank killers. There goes the tanks we prized. Then heavy bolters. Then a terminator load out. The problem is numbers do not do everything in the game. Its like saying who wins in a battle? A Navy Seal armed with far superior tech and given a badnews sniper rifle 700 yards away or 10 Al Queda members in a truck? The Navy Seal wins clearly. The sniper bullet would pass through the gasetank which he could easily locate. Killing all 10 members with one shot.

Plus Iran compared to a deathwing company really?
Iran Loses because their military compared to hundreds of years old veterans walking laughing while they are getting shot with inferior small arms fire. Then they have to deal with the fact that the deathwing is never alone. Their thunderhawks would fly in and bombard the entire artillery line and the airforce bases before they could even move. Space Marines do not fight on the open battlefield. That was the Horus heresy. Space marines are shock troops and they take out primary targets. Not Infantry Regiments that pose little threat. Space marines always aim for the leadership, and important areas such as weapon depot, air bases, and command centers. Sometimes they fight on the open battlefield but yet again, all space marines are veterans especially dark angels. They would fight in urban, forests, and any where they are granted cover. They know their numbers are fewer than the enemy so they will focus on primary objectives not an all out firefight in the middle of a desert.

and Berzerker /thread with your post.

Andas a grand finale:

Now that I'm going back through my old threads, I'll report this one to my FLGS and my EvE Buddies! Thanks everyone!

Old thread is old.

Arise Chicken, chicken arrise.