Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I see that with $500 on the line half of the San Diego armies are either Grey Knights or Imperial Guard.

I was thinking about playing either Eldar or Demons, but the money would be nice so I am tempted to play my Grey Knights.

Blackmoor wrote:I see that with $500 on the line half of the San Diego armies are either Grey Knights or Imperial Guard.

I was thinking about playing either Eldar or Demons, but the money would be nice so I am tempted to play my Grey Knights.

Surely this is due to GK being the most overpowered codex GW has put out in a decade. We all know that from the 50+ pages of GK OP trolling we've endured lately!

Eldar is a good counter to GK though if the GK players are making use of a lot of psychic powers. Hell, even having to roll 3 dice to make sure their dreads work will ruin their day. Honestly though, I just don't want to go up against your Draigo list

I will be playing GK btw

Blackmoor wrote:I see that with $500 on the line half of the San Diego armies are either Grey Knights or Imperial Guard.

I was thinking about playing either Eldar or Demons, but the money would be nice so I am tempted to play my Grey Knights.

I would seriously consider Eldar if you are expecting that many guard and GK lists. No trolling, I'm serious.

sharkticon wrote:

I would seriously consider Eldar if you are expecting that many guard and GK lists. No trolling, I'm serious.

Eldar are ok vs. Grey Knights, but IG are their worst match-up.

disdainful wrote:

Grimgob wrote:I didnt see anything that said you had to use the same list through the series. You can't change lists between game can you?

That is correct. You're stuck with your codex for the duration, but can use any list you want from game to game, including playoff games. In the final showdown games, players must bring one list only.

Dosnt that open the door for list tailoring vs. specific armys? Like Orks usually do great vs. Grey knights but have a hard time against Palladin armys or going heavy on the flamers vs. Tyranids. Someone could just list tailor to advantage. Also how do you judge the 15 painted models if someone could just use their grey plastic army list the next week after they play the painted list for the deadline.

Grimgob wrote:

disdainful wrote:

Grimgob wrote:I didnt see anything that said you had to use the same list through the series. You can't change lists between game can you?

That is correct. You're stuck with your codex for the duration, but can use any list you want from game to game, including playoff games. In the final showdown games, players must bring one list only.

Dosnt that open the door for list tailoring vs. specific armys? Like Orks usually do great vs. Grey knights but have a hard time against Palladin armys or going heavy on the flamers vs. Tyranids. Someone could just list tailor to advantage. Also how do you judge the 15 painted models if someone could just use their grey plastic army list the next week after they play the painted list for the deadline.

Speaking as a participant in every 40k league GEP has run in the last 5 years (correct me if I am wrong Dis but I think that is an accurate claim) I can say that list tailoring doesn't happen much in our leagues for a few reasons.
1. Many of our collections are extensive so I won't know if my Ork opponent will be playing Kan Wall, BW Rush, or Green Tide.
2. We don't set out our armies prior to the match or the exchange of lists.
3. It is generally frowned upon and therefore we don't do it that much.
List tailoring will be nearly unavoidable on a certain level but is generally negated by the large collections of most of our participants, plus the normal League crew (while uber competitive) seems to eschew list tailoring. The chance of list tailoring doesn't worry me too much tbh.

The painting thing you are correct on except for a few points. The army can't be grey plastic, it must be primed. After another point in the league you must use 15 painted models or forfeit the $15 refund. For paint judging you simply tell Travis when you will be using the list you want judged. I don't foresee too many problems with the system Grimgob but I am sure Dis can address them better than I.

@Shark: Blackmoor is right, when I had my Nurgle IG army still I used to pray for Eldar match ups.

To play devils advocate a bit, with cash on the line I could see the moral restriction of not tailoring going out the window. Maybe everyone should submit 2-3 lists before hand and be limited to those until the playoffs? Or just 2 and have it be warmachine style where you pick your list as you start the match. With their only being 8 games, it's not going to kill us to play normal, but I wouldn't want any accusations of tailoring to cause bad blood in the shop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I see that with $500 on the line half of the San Diego armies are either Grey Knights or Imperial Guard.

I was thinking about playing either Eldar or Demons, but the money would be nice so I am tempted to play my Grey Knights.

Surely this is due to GK being the most overpowered codex GW has put out in a decade. We all know that from the 50+ pages of GK OP trolling we've endured lately!

Eldar is a good counter to GK though if the GK players are making use of a lot of psychic powers. Hell, even having to roll 3 dice to make sure their dreads work will ruin their day. Honestly though, I just don't want to go up against your Draigo list

I will be playing GK btw

To be fair, the majority of that thread wasn't even talking about grey knights. It was about how sad people are that Tac Marines are so under powered.
I was considering Eldar as well, but I think Casey is going to be borrowing my good stuff, so no eldar for me. Maybe I'll play tau...

Dok wrote:To play devils advocate a bit, with cash on the line I could see the moral restriction of not tailoring going out the window. Maybe everyone should submit 2-3 lists before hand and be limited to those until the playoffs? Or just 2 and have it be warmachine style where you pick your list as you start the match. With their only being 8 games, it's not going to kill us to play normal, but I wouldn't want any accusations of tailoring to cause bad blood in the shop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I see that with $500 on the line half of the San Diego armies are either Grey Knights or Imperial Guard.

I was thinking about playing either Eldar or Demons, but the money would be nice so I am tempted to play my Grey Knights.

Surely this is due to GK being the most overpowered codex GW has put out in a decade. We all know that from the 50+ pages of GK OP trolling we've endured lately!

Eldar is a good counter to GK though if the GK players are making use of a lot of psychic powers. Hell, even having to roll 3 dice to make sure their dreads work will ruin their day. Honestly though, I just don't want to go up against your Draigo list

I will be playing GK btw

To be fair, the majority of that thread wasn't even talking about grey knights. It was about how sad people are that Tac Marines are so under powered.
I was considering Eldar as well, but I think Casey is going to be borrowing my good stuff, so no eldar for me. Maybe I'll play tau...

The only thing I don't like about list limitation is boredom. I never bring the same list from one tournament to the next because I find it boring, and unless I am preparing for a tournament I don't play the same list on Tuesday nights either. I guess submitting 2-3 lists that you can switch between might be ok but the boredom factor might still set in for me.

I'm not saying specific tailoring to specific units. Im talking about there are pretty good counters in every army and certain things are useless (like Librarians Vs. Orks). like on the Frontline blog they were talking about how Orks do welll in tournaments because people always have to plan for Space marines. But what if you didnt (Like no psychic hood which frees up atleast 100pts for other things but isnt exactly list tailoring). Would that affect the list you write? Maybe you play IG and like two manticors and an exacutioner, but your playing eldar/dark eldar and its really tempting to bring those Hydras youve been wanting to try out. Just sayin...thats all.

OverwatchCNC wrote:
The only thing I don't like about list limitation is boredom. I never bring the same list from one tournament to the next because I find it boring, and unless I am preparing for a tournament I don't play the same list on Tuesday nights either. I guess submitting 2-3 lists that you can switch between might be ok but the boredom factor might still set in for me.

It's only 8 games, man!

Dok wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:
The only thing I don't like about list limitation is boredom. I never bring the same list from one tournament to the next because I find it boring, and unless I am preparing for a tournament I don't play the same list on Tuesday nights either. I guess submitting 2-3 lists that you can switch between might be ok but the boredom factor might still set in for me.

It's only 8 games, man!

Maybe I have ADHD ! And it's more if you make it to the playoffs

@ Grimgob if i knew i was playing againt orks with my deathwing i for sure will not be taking Ezekiel for his hood ,and could use those points for 2 preds which would be more useful verse ork than one Librarian.Even a 200 point unit swap can make huge differences in game outcomes.But the real question should be, when does making tactical changes turn into tailoring? Would taking the 2 preds or 2 dreads be tailoring? how about 2 vindicators ? It might not be that drastic of a change but there are certain things you will not have to worry to much about.If you know there will be no psychic defense on the board you might not spend those 20 points for rune(i think they cost 20) on your farseer which could then be spent on bladestorm which wouldnt otherwise be in the list .

azgrim wrote:@ Grimgob if i knew i was playing againt orks with my deathwing i for sure will not be taking Ezekiel for his hood ,and could use those points for 2 preds which would be more useful verse ork than one Librarian.Even a 200 point unit swap can make huge differences in game outcomes.But the real question should be, when does making tactical changes turn into tailoring? Would taking the 2 preds or 2 dreads be tailoring? how about 2 vindicators ? It might not be that drastic of a change but there are certain things you will not have to worry to much about.If you know there will be no psychic defense on the board you might not spend those 20 points for rune(i think they cost 20) on your farseer which could then be spent on bladestorm which wouldnt otherwise be in the list .

Changing your army because of information known about a specifc opponent = tailoring in my book.

There may be varying degrees of it of course but the meta game massively changEs when you know you do not require an all comers list.

List tailoring is an issue. Unfortunately there is no perfect solution.

On the one hand, we leave the field open and let players make any list they want. While this does create the issue that players can tailor lists, the street goes both ways. Each player knows going in who they're going to be fighting, so each has the same ability to plan for what's coming.

On the other, we restrict players to one or a small number of previously established lists. While this reduces or eliminates list tailoring, it creates its own set of problems, not the least of which is a player staring down a bad matchup that they have zero ability to deal with.

I'm more of the mind that the playing field is more even when everyone has the ability to make lists as they see fit for each game, in particular because some codices have a much better ability to make legit 'all-comers' lists than others.

It's something that I'm open to discussion on, of course, and if they series players overwhelmingly wants restricted lists then it will be considered. My concern is that there is, unfortunately, no good compromise. If players are allowed, say, three lists, that gives enough leeway for players to still tailor their lists more than enough.

hrm... Dark Eldar, you say? Looks like I'm playing my list that beats Dark Eldar today! LOL!

Regardless of all that let me know what you guys think.

Grimjob, you're right. This could happen:

Sgt. Gristle: Ten minutes! Drop in ten! Special weps detail, grab your gear!

Private Meat: Hey, sarge. Who're we killin' today?

Sgt. Gristle: We're not after traitor marines today, so put away those backfiring plasmaguns, damnit! Naw, it's green skins. Bust out the napalm and prometheum! It seems that orks have soiled our beloved Emperor's agri-colony Kellogg IV.

Private Meat: Alright, sarge. Three flamers per squad?

Sgt. Gristle: Good call, Meat. Tighten up your gear. We don't want those canisters popping against the bulkhead! Drop in eight!


From a fluff point of view, it makes sense. But few of us angle for fluff ... that I know of.

My DE list is the same pretty much all the time. One TAC list. The only variance is a venom troop choice in or out to adjust to points level. Lances all the time, even though Disintegrators would do me better versus the Armor2+ spam OverwatchCNC runs.

All through last year's Campaign, we frequently scheduled games between players on the weekends, easily allowing time to tweak and tailor ... I didn't as my DE list never altered. I recall that one or two guys might've said something to me like, "I put these powers weps in to deal with your wyches' FNP" or "I wanted more STR6 deal shoot down your venoms and deny your wyches FNP."

I didn't bother me.

If any sort of Check and Balance should be in place, probably a lot of peer pressure and unceasing ball-busting would be in order.

Since when is 11 models out of 40 spamming 2+ saves?

I never bother tailoring lists because I just use leagues as games to hone my tournament lists.

There is nothing you can do about it though. If you think that your opponent is going to list tailor, build a different list from what you normally take to counter this. If they take a lot of flamers when you take orks, take mega-nobs. If you normally take battlewagons, take horde orks etc.

Blackmoor wrote:I never bother tailoring lists because I just use leagues as games to hone my tournament lists.

There is nothing you can do about it though. If you think that your opponent is going to list tailor, build a different list from what you normally take to counter this. If they take a lot of flamers when you take orks, take mega-nobs. If you normally take battlewagons, take horde orks etc.

Thats my problem. I never tailor lists either because I found what I like and only make small changes to tweak it. I do however see a way people could abuse that though. Do softball or bowling leauge teams change the roster half way through the season? Since theres nothing I can do I will just shut up, stop complaining, and just enjoy the 8 games of 40K. Like I said before "jus sayin thats all".

Grimgob wrote:Thats my problem. I never tailor lists either because I found what I like and only make small changes to tweak it. I do however see a way people could abuse that though. Do softball or bowling leauge teams change the roster half way through the season? Since theres nothing I can do I will just shut up, stop complaining, and just enjoy the 8 games of 40K. Like I said before "jus sayin thats all".

Well, complaint noted, and I can assure you, that I won't be tailoring when I face your boyz, sincerely.

Blackmoor & OverwatchCNC, those guys? Oh, yeah. They're gonna get tailored like an italian suit by a fussy, flamboyant, Parisian fashionista.

Brothererekose wrote:

Grimgob wrote:Thats my problem. I never tailor lists either because I found what I like and only make small changes to tweak it. I do however see a way people could abuse that though. Do softball or bowling leauge teams change the roster half way through the season? Since theres nothing I can do I will just shut up, stop complaining, and just enjoy the 8 games of 40K. Like I said before "jus sayin thats all".

Well, complaint noted, and I can assure you, that I won't be tailoring when I face your boyz, sincerely.

Blackmoor & OverwatchCNC, those guys? Oh, yeah. They're gonna get tailored like an italian suit by a fussy, flamboyant, Parisian fashionista.

What did we do? We play gk so automatically we won't need to tailor our lists...

I didn't see this mentioned in the rules, so I might as well ask it here: will geographic location have any impact on divisions / opponents?

I'd love to sign up but the store is approx a 75 minute drive for me (I'm pretty much right in the middle of the North and South stores). It'd be no problem if I have opponents primarily in OC / Long Beach / South LA. But I imagine completing all 8 games would become an issue if all or most of my opponents were over an hour away.

Seriously, I don't think most players should tailor, but I do like the ability to change things up if a few games into the league someone sees that their list just isn't working.

I am in Travis. I Think I will have to bring the Fists, which means Damion will bring wolves to challenge my painting bid.

Paul J.

I've never even played GK@2k. What kind of stuff do you use? Lot's of banishers, right?

Dok wrote:I've never even played GK@2k. What kind of stuff do you use? Lot's of banishers, right?

No no no. Gk @ 2k only works by spamming full kit strike squads with psilencers on foot with 2x brotherhood champions.

Oh, and you'll still win since gk are the most op book gw has put out in a decade.

I better start getting those bro champs then. I heard 2 attacks that you can re-roll on the charge is whats hot on the streets!

nickthewise wrote:I didn't see this mentioned in the rules, so I might as well ask it here: will geographic location have any impact on divisions / opponents?

I'd love to sign up but the store is approx a 75 minute drive for me (I'm pretty much right in the middle of the North and South stores). It'd be no problem if I have opponents primarily in OC / Long Beach / South LA. But I imagine completing all 8 games would become an issue if all or most of my opponents were over an hour away.

Geography will indeed factor into the divisions. I'm going to endeavor to make sure that everyone in a division is within 20-30 minutes of each other.

Google maps is a very handy tool.

Don't stalk me, bro. On topic, can we just sign up at the front and random joe at GE is gonna know what I'm talking about? Or do we need to go to the horse's mouth?

Hey everyone, just a quick note that we are still taking signups for this, and that the meeting for the series is slated for this Sunday from 12-1pm. We'll be going over the rules, giving out rule packets to everyone, and getting information logged.

There's been a bunch of signups at the store, and anyone at the store is fine to pay in with; if it's not me just make sure you hold on to your receipt!

If we get a big turnout for this Saturday's 40k tournament and the majority of the people I have spoken to about joining the series are here then, I'll just disseminate the series info on Saturday and save everyone their Sunday lunch hour and extra driving time....

Come to think of it... if everyone's amenable, I'd be happy to get all the info out on Saturday tournament day, since hopefully most of the players will be here anyway. Let me know what you all think.

disdainful wrote:Hey everyone, just a quick note that we are still taking signups for this, and that the meeting for the series is slated for this Sunday from 12-1pm. We'll be going over the rules, giving out rule packets to everyone, and getting information logged.

There's been a bunch of signups at the store, and anyone at the store is fine to pay in with; if it's not me just make sure you hold on to your receipt!

If we get a big turnout for this Saturday's 40k tournament and the majority of the people I have spoken to about joining the series are here then, I'll just disseminate the series info on Saturday and save everyone their Sunday lunch hour and extra driving time....

Come to think of it... if everyone's amenable, I'd be happy to get all the info out on Saturday tournament day, since hopefully most of the players will be here anyway. Let me know what you all think.

I won't be there Saturday I have a party to go to. But feel free to give out the information, I can get it from you anytime. It's not like we live 100s of miles apart or something.