Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do all of the models in the UNIT ignore difficult terrain? If the answer is no, then the UNIT is affected by terrain, regardless of any rules some models in the unit may have and regardless of the placement of any of the models in relation to the terrain.

copper.talos wrote:What I am saying is that moving in terrain can slow you down when moving and when fighting in cc. This is represented in each case by moving less that normal and by having lower I. Wraiths are never slowed by terrain. There is no qualifier in that. Any kind of slowing down cause by terrain is effectively ignored.

But you don't "always" move slower than normal when assaulting through terrain, there is still the possibility of rolling a 6. A pretty good possibility, too. But that doesn't matter, just because it says they aren't slowed by terrain doesn't mean they aren't "affected" by terrain.

This is an entertaining discussion.

Can you leave and rejoin a squad in the same movement phase?

NecronLord3 wrote:Can you leave and rejoin a squad in the same move ent phase?

Not the same one, no.

Mainly because, I believe the IC is the one that has to end his movement phase in or out of coherency to determine if he's part of the squad or not. I think. I can never quite remember which way it is.

I've seen it done at tournaments and wasn't sure if legal.

NecronLord3 wrote:I've seen it done at tournaments and wasn't sure if legal.

I'm sure someone with a better understanding of the rule(s) will chime in, but before 5th edition necrons I was never really unit swapping my IC's anyway. I either had my D lord with wraiths or my foot lord with immortals. And that was pretty much it. LOL

Kevin949 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:I've seen it done at tournaments and wasn't sure if legal.

I'm sure someone with a better understanding of the rule(s) will chime in, but before 5th edition necrons I was never really unit swapping my IC's anyway. I either had my D lord with wraiths or my foot lord with immortals. And that was pretty much it. LOL

I was in the same boat, myself if not running the Deceiver.

NecronLord3 wrote:Can you leave and rejoin a squad in the same movement phase?

No, you can't.

Your "attachment" to the unit isn't decided until the end of the movement phase.
You can state "I'm detaching!" but it's not relevant until that unit is done moving.

Kevin94 wrote:But you don't "always" move slower than normal when assaulting through terrain, there is still the possibility of rolling a 6. A pretty good possibility, too. But that doesn't matter, just because it says they aren't slowed by terrain doesn't mean they aren't "affected" by terrain.

As I said terrain can slow your movement. It isn't necessary. Same with initiative. Terrain can slow you in cc. But it isn't necessary. And I never said they are not affected by terrain at all.. They are not affected by any slow-down effects produced by terrain.

Oh god, not this hilarious argument again Copper.....

You're again using a fluff explanation to influence a rule. Dont. "slowed by terrain" is in reference to movement, via context and actual rules.

copper.talos wrote:

Kevin94 wrote:But you don't "always" move slower than normal when assaulting through terrain, there is still the possibility of rolling a 6. A pretty good possibility, too. But that doesn't matter, just because it says they aren't slowed by terrain doesn't mean they aren't "affected" by terrain.

As I said terrain can slow your movement. It isn't necessary. Same with initiative. Terrain can slow you in cc. But it isn't necessary. And I never said they are not affected by terrain at all.. They are not affected by any slow-down effects produced by terrain.

Which has nothing to do with the OPs question.

yakface wrote:
The better question is, do wraiths have their Initiative lowered when assaulting through difficult terrain and the answer RAW is clearly yes.

Unlike the C'Tan Wraiths are just not 'slowed' by Difficult Terrain, but they're still technically taking the test which RAW is what triggers the Initiative lowering rule.

I'm just guessing no one plays it that way. And hopefully 6th Ed will make it more clear.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:Since the wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain -they don't just automatically pass difficult terrain tests-, the only model that can cause a difficult terrain test is the overlord. If the overlord doesn't go on the terrain, there is no need for the test.

That's not what the rules say.

Do Wraiths have to take difficult terrain tests if they're not slowed by it? If no, then the RAW initiative lowering rule is never triggered.

In a mixed unit, the unit moves at the speed of the slowest model. In this case, the overlord slows down the wraiths.

So I would say - a unit of just wraiths - no difficult terrain test, no initiative lowering.

A unit of wraiths with an attached overlord - the unit takes the test if any models are in difficult terrain, they all move slower and all have their initiative lowered to 1 after taking a difficult terrain test.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Do Wraiths have to take difficult terrain tests if they're not slowed by it? If no, then the RAW initiative lowering rule is never triggered.

They still have to roll DT, they just get to treat every roll as a 6. If they didn't have to roll DT, then their entry would say they ignore the effects of DT, like Harlequins or C'Tan Shards (was going off an earlier post. One of these days I have GOT to buy the rest of the codices so I can stop making stupid mistakes like this.)

C'tan Shards*, but yeah, I think Happyjew and others have it right. The difference in wording says a lot.

Happyjew wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Do Wraiths have to take difficult terrain tests if they're not slowed by it? If no, then the RAW initiative lowering rule is never triggered.

They still have to roll DT, they just get to treat every roll as a 6. If they didn't have to roll DT, then their entry would say they ignore the effects of DT, like Harlequins or C'Tan Wraiths.

From the Necron Codex:
"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain".

I would say difficult terrain slows a model in two ways. 1) rolling for movement. 2) lowering initiative striking order simulates attacking more slowly.

The rule is a bit "fluffy" and open to some debate but it seems to me that by themselves their initative would not be lowered.

Nemesor Dave wrote: 1) rolling for movement. 2) lowering initiative striking order simulates attacking more slowly.

It seems that you and copper.talos always agree on rulings in favor of the Necrons. Being 'slowed' by difficult terrain has nothing to do with Initiative as movement has no direct correlation with Initiative.

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote: 1) rolling for movement. 2) lowering initiative striking order simulates attacking more slowly.

It seems that you and copper.talos always agree on rulings in favor of the Necrons. Being 'slowed' by difficult terrain has nothing to do with Initiative as movement has no direct correlation with Initiative.

Actually per the posters original question, I would say that his wraiths strike at initative 1 and they all have to roll for difficult terrain movement. That's a silly accusation.
Also, note: I actually bothered to look up the precise wording of the rule. I can't say that for a lot of counter arguments I see.

Regardless, initiative by definition is the "speed" at which a model attacks and is an effect of difficult terrain. So indeed striking at initiative 1 is "slowing" the model.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Regardless, initiative by definition is the "speed" at which a model attacks and is an effect of difficult terrain. So indeed striking at initiative 1 is "slowing" the model.

So, you're suggesting that if I roll a 6 for Difficult Terrain, my Iniatitive is not reduced, since I was not "slowed" at all?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Do Wraiths have to take difficult terrain tests if they're not slowed by it? If no, then the RAW initiative lowering rule is never triggered.

They still have to roll DT, they just get to treat every roll as a 6. If they didn't have to roll DT, then their entry would say they ignore the effects of DT, like Harlequins or C'Tan Wraiths.

From the Necron Codex:
"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain".

They are not being slowed by terrain, they are being slowed by the overlord..............................

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Regardless, initiative by definition is the "speed" at which a model attacks and is an effect of difficult terrain. So indeed striking at initiative 1 is "slowing" the model.

So, you're suggesting that if I roll a 6 for Difficult Terrain, my Iniatitive is not reduced, since I was not "slowed" at all?

No, per the difficult terrain rules, your model is slowed to initiative 1 in addition to possible (in this case not) reduced movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Do Wraiths have to take difficult terrain tests if they're not slowed by it? If no, then the RAW initiative lowering rule is never triggered.

They still have to roll DT, they just get to treat every roll as a 6. If they didn't have to roll DT, then their entry would say they ignore the effects of DT, like Harlequins or C'Tan Wraiths.

From the Necron Codex:
"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain".

They are not being slowed by terrain, they are being slowed by the overlord..............................

I see what you're saying, but I think a unit must all be effected by difficult terrain or none and in this case the overlord makes the unit take the DT test and the effects of it apply to the unit.

I would like to see a more structured argument and there are a few relevant rules. Can individual models move at separate movement distances in the same unit? I believe no, but don't have a quote from the BRB.

Is the initiative lowering effect actually triggered by the roll? A relevant quote would help.

I'd look it up but can't right now.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
I would like to see a more structured argument and there are a few relevant rules. Can individual models move at separate movement distances in the same unit? I believe no, but don't have a quote from the BRB.

No, indivuidual models within a unit cannot move at different speeds. Page 11, main rulebook:

DIFFERENT MOVEMENT DISTANCES IN A UNIT
All of the models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest model.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Is the initiative lowering effect actually triggered by the roll? A relevant quote would help.

Yes.

page 36 wrote:if an assaulting
unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test
during their assault move, all of its models have their
Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Is the initiative lowering effect actually triggered by the roll? A relevant quote would help.

Yes.

page 36 wrote:if an assaulting
unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test
during their assault move, all of its models have their
Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking

Yes, and that's why [with an overlord attached] the wraiths would be I1.

With no overlord attached however, they are "still" going to strike at I1 because their rule does not say they IGNORE terrain, only that they are not slowed by it. The fact they it doesn't say "ignore" (and it would if that was the intention of the rule, it said ignore in the previous codex and they specify "ignore" for other models) means they still TEST they just automatically roll 6's. They can't say they automatically "pass" a difficult terrain test because there is no pass or fail. Also, the fact they still test for dangerous terrain as well means they do not ignore terrain, they simply automatically roll the best possible roll in those situations. C'tan Shards "ignore" these rules entirely. Vast difference.

Or you treat taking the test as including the possibility of being slowed, so you dont take the test at all, and no I1 reduction

Certainly it is how I assume others will play wraiths against me

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or you treat taking the test as including the possibility of being slowed, so you dont take the test at all, and no I1 reduction

Certainly it is how I assume others will play wraiths against me

Well, that's how I was playing it always (mainly because that was the correct way in the previous edition and I just assumed as much for this edition), but having had this brought up to my attention now it will certainly change how I play the wraiths.

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or you treat taking the test as including the possibility of being slowed, so you dont take the test at all, and no I1 reduction

Certainly it is how I assume others will play wraiths against me

Well, that's how I was playing it always (mainly because that was the correct way in the previous edition and I just assumed as much for this edition), but having had this brought up to my attention now it will certainly change how I play the wraiths.

The problem here is that the necron rule is "fluffy" while the BRB rule is precisely about the game mechanic.

1) The wraith unit is forced to take a dangerous terrain test but is not "slowed" by the test.
2) Dangerous Terrain tests cause the model to attack at I1.

#1 does not say you do not have to roll - so lets say you roll
#1 does not say that you automatically pass or get 6's or anything - so lets use an example of rolling less that a 6 - lets say a 4.

3) Game mechanic terms - Your movement is 4. Your strike at I1.
4) Fluff terms - Your movement is "slowed" and your attacks are "slowed". Both of these should not effect a unit of wraiths.

That "striking at I1" is triggered by the roll for DT does not change the fact that it is the DT that is slowing you. #2 is actually according to the same "fluff" as #1 "slowing" the unit regardless of the mechanic involved.

INAT FAQ updated 2-23-2012

◊NEC.44C.01 – Q: Are Wraiths penalized by having
their Initiative lowered when assaulting through
difficult or dangerous terrain?
A: Wraiths are unaffected when assaulting through standard
difficult terrain, however assaulting through dangerous
terrain still causes them to strike at Initiative 1 that round
(as even though they automatically pass the dangerous
terrain test, they still have to take it) [clarification].

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or you treat taking the test as including the possibility of being slowed, so you dont take the test at all, and no I1 reduction
Certainly it is how I assume others will play wraiths against me

"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain, and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests" (Codex necrons, pg 44)
If they assault through Dangerous terrain, they definitely should be I1, as they do take the Dangerous Terrain test even though they automatically succeed.
Difficult can be interpreted both ways and without FAQ, I don't really know which one is correct.
On friendly games, I'd go for same interpretation as Nos did.

NecronLord3 wrote:INAT FAQ updated 2-23-2012

◊NEC.44C.01 – Q: Are Wraiths penalized by having
their Initiative lowered when assaulting through
difficult or dangerous terrain?
A: Wraiths are unaffected when assaulting through standard
difficult terrain, however assaulting through dangerous
terrain still causes them to strike at Initiative 1 that round
(as even though they automatically pass the dangerous
terrain test, they still have to take it) [clarification].

Good for INAT. Please re-read the tenets.