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If a Wraith squad is attached to an Overlord on foot, and the Wraith squad is in terrain but the Overlord isn't, does the Overlord or the Wraith squad have to roll a difficult terrain test when moving/assaulting? Are the wraiths reduced to i1 because of such a test?

The answer is clearly yes in both cases after double-checking the rules.

If the overlord never goes on the terrain why should the unit roll?

copper.talos wrote:If the overlord never goes on the terrain why should the unit roll?

Check out the rules and you'll see why!

copper.talos wrote:If the overlord never goes on the terrain why should the unit roll?

You answered your own question within your question!

Bolded to show you where.

Since the wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain -they don't just automatically pass difficult terrain tests-, the only model that can cause a difficult terrain test is the overlord. If the overlord doesn't go on the terrain, there is no need for the test.

The better question is, do wraiths have their Initiative lowered when assaulting through difficult terrain and the answer RAW is clearly yes.

Unlike the C'Tan Wraiths are just not 'slowed' by Difficult Terrain, but they're still technically taking the test which RAW is what triggers the Initiative lowering rule.

I'm just guessing no one plays it that way. And hopefully 6th Ed will make it more clear.




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copper.talos wrote:Since the wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain -they don't just automatically pass difficult terrain tests-, the only model that can cause a difficult terrain test is the overlord. If the overlord doesn't go on the terrain, there is no need for the test.

That's not what the rules say.

The overlord is part of a unit that went into difficult terrain. You must roll for him, even if he never touches the terrain. And then, depending on his roll, you move at the speed of the slowest model in the unit.

If 1 model of 30 orks enters difficult terrain, don't all 30 orks follow the rules for moving through terrain? If 1 ork clips a forest as you assault, doesn't every single ork have their initiative affected?

How can "never slowed by difficult terrain" mean that the wraiths technically take the test is beyond me.

And lowering the I of a model is making it slower. Check the initiative description.

copper.talos wrote:How can "never slowed by difficult terrain" mean that the wraiths technically take the test is beyond me.

They are not slowed by difficult terrain. The overlord is. And they must move at the speed of the slowest model in the unit.

copper.talos wrote:How can "never slowed by difficult terrain" mean that the wraiths technically take the test is beyond me.

And lowering the I of a model is making it slower. Check the initiative description.

The C'Tan for example simply ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain, this means exactly what it says: the ignore everything about terrain, the tests and the penalties involved (as those are all effects of terrain).

The Wraith rules do not say this. Wraiths are not slowed by terrain and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.

That means, technically speaking, when they enter Difficult terrain they would still be rolling two dice (as this is a difficult terrain test) but then they just would not be slowed by it. As to why they would possibly take this difficult terrain roll? Well, the example given in the OP is one good reason: because when a UNIT enters difficult terrain it has to take a difficult terrain test by rolling two dice and moving at the speed of the highest roll.

Now the Wraiths in the unit aren't slowed by this roll, but any joined IC would be...and of course all models have to move at the rate of the slowest model in the unit, and that is why a Wraith unit moving through DT would be slowed by it if accompanied by an IC, even if the IC doesn't actually move through the terrain himself.


As for the assault rules. Yes, the rules use the term 'slowly' in the fluff...but that in no way actually connects to the rules passage which states that if a unit takes a Difficult Terrain test (which the Wraiths aren't technically exempt from) then they should have their Initiative lowered in combat.

But like I said, I'm guessing no one will bother to play that way because it doesn't make sense (as you've pointed out), so its really a moot thing to bother arguing about.

I agree 100% with yakface.

Well, "Never slowed" by difficult terrain means that there is no check required. "Unit must make the relevant terrain checks before moving" pg. 36, MRB. If a unit is not slowed by the terrain, you aren't making or passing a check, you're ignoring the slowing affect. "Automatically pass" difficult terrain checks means there WAS a check made, and it was passed. This would slow the wraiths in the following round.

yakface wrote:As for the assault rules. Yes, the rules use the term 'slowly' in the fluff...but that in no way actually connects to the rules passage which states that if a unit takes a Difficult Terrain test (which the Wraiths aren't technically exempt from) then they should have their Initiative lowered in combat.

But like I said, I'm guessing no one will bother to play that way because it doesn't make sense (as you've pointed out), so its really a moot thing to bother arguing about.

Heh, I really wish it were a moot point. I was in a tournament this weekend where I was forced to play my Wraiths as I1 when assaulting into cover.

Creon wrote:Well, "Never slowed" by difficult terrain means that there is no check required. "Unit must make the relevant terrain checks before moving" pg. 36, MRB. If a unit is not slowed by the terrain, you aren't making or passing a check, you're ignoring the slowing affect. "Automatically pass" difficult terrain checks means there WAS a check made, and it was passed. This would slow the wraiths in the following round.

Not being slowed means they aren't slowed by Difficult terrain, i.e. their movement is not reduced. That has literally nothing to do with whether or not they roll the dice.

Because as I've pointed out if the unit contains an IC, and they go through terrain you obviously have to take the test. However, the Wraiths would not be slowed by the terrain (but unfortunately would be slowed by whatever their IC counterpart gets slowed to).

But right there is the point: even though Wraiths aren't slowed by difficult terrain, they (the unit) can and obviously does still technically have to roll the DT dice....its just a redundant waste of time in most cases.

In BRB pg.6 says that in Initiative is the difference between faster and slower units. So if you are reducing the I of a unit you are in fact slowing it down.

copper.talos wrote:In BRB pg.6 says that in Initiative is the difference between faster and slower units. So if you are reducing the I of a unit you are in fact slowing it down.

Actually, instead of misrepresenting, you could post the entire bit of fluff.

Page 6 BRB wrote:How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is
shown by its Initiative. In close combat, faster creatures
gain a massive advantage over slower ones because
they get to strike first. A normal human is Initiative 3,
while an agile Eldar Aspect Warrior is Initiative 5.

Initiative is the difference in reaction time between fast and slow units. Reducing a unit's I might be slowing their reaction time, but it is not slowing movement - which, by context, is what the Wraith's rule is talking about.

Wasn't this a thread a month or so ago? It's stupid this wasn't FAQed.

Wraiths are not slowed in general by terrain. There is no reference in that rule that it applies to movement only.

copper.talos wrote:Wraiths are not slowed in general by terrain. There is no reference in that rule that it applies to movement only.

It's a rule. Rules will usually only mention other rules (yes, there are exceptions to that but they're pretty clear when it happens).
The explanation of Initiative is not a rule. It's a fluff explanation. The rule is that a higher I goes first in assault.
The only reference to speed in the rules is movement.

Or are you arguing that everyone in a unit strikes at the Initiative of the slowest member as well?

edited because I quoted the wrong post... I must be either really vain or just misclicked =x

This whole argument falls into the other category of "if a unit with a heavy weapon moves but the guy carrying the weapon didn't move, can he still fire?" We all know the answer is no. The situation is similar here, even though the overlord didn't go through the terrain, his unit did and he still has to make a terrain test. Dangerous terrain is different because it is actually per model, difficult terrain is not because it is per UNIT. The same reason that if even 1 model in a unit goes through difficult terrain when assaulting, the entire unit goes at I1.

This is also why you don't put foot sloggers with jump infantry.

Yakface is correct though, on both counts. The first being, I never actually played it that way in the new rulebook either (mainly because I'm still used to the old wraithflight), and also because if they did intend for the wraiths to ignore the effects (in their entirety) of terrain then GW would have worded it identical to the c'tan. The fact they did not and the wording is specific in saying that they're not slowed (which does not mean they did not test, which is evident in the dangerous terrain mention of them AUTOMATICALLY PASSING the test) simply means they still test but they automatically rolled two 6's (or in the case of jumping into/out of terrain, passed the dangerous test). "Not being slowed" is not the same as "ignoring".

The BRB is clear. When a creature is in cc, initiative characterizes how fast or slow it fights. So in cc lowering the I is slowing down. In movement moving less than the normal distance is slowing down. Wraiths are never slowed by terrain. It doesn't mention movement, cc phase etc. So any kind of slowing down caused by terrain doesn't apply to wraiths.

copper.talos wrote:The BRB is clear. When a creature is in cc, initiative characterizes how fast or slow it fights. So in cc lowering the I is slowing down. In movement moving less than the normal distance is slowing down. Wraiths are never slowed by terrain. It doesn't mention movement, cc phase etc. So any kind of slowing down caused by terrain doesn't apply to wraiths.

Look at this way, by your logic if you rolled a 6 on your difficult terrain test you were "not slowed" and should still fight at your normal initiative. That's not the case.

copper.talos wrote:The BRB is clear. When a creature is in cc, initiative characterizes how fast or slow it fights.

It does not say this in any rule. Initiative is the step the creatures swings at in CC.

So in cc lowering the I is slowing down.

False. Lowering the I changes the step he swings at. It's not slower or faster, just different steps.

It doesn't mention movement, cc phase etc. So any kind of slowing down caused by terrain doesn't apply to wraiths.

You're reaching for the stars and wearing lead boots here.

You quoted it your self:

How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its Initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first. A normal human is Initiative 3, while an agile Eldar Aspect Warrior is Initiative 5.

Low initiative = slow creature. Lowering the initiative is slowing the creature.

copper.talos wrote:You quoted it your self:

How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its Initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first. A normal human is Initiative 3, while an agile Eldar Aspect Warrior is Initiative 5.

Low initiative = slow creature. Lowering the initiative is slowing the creature.

I quoted fluff and I even said I was quoting fluff.
That's not rules.
There are no rules saying Init has anything to do with speed.
Let alone your amazing interpretation that rolling a 6 for a normal squad lets them keep their initiative.

copper.talos wrote:You quoted it your self:

How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its Initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first. A normal human is Initiative 3, while an agile Eldar Aspect Warrior is Initiative 5.

Low initiative = slow creature. Lowering the initiative is slowing the creature.

But wraiths move fast and have low initiative.

Your interpretation of the rule would mean that initiative is tied directly to what you roll on the dice for difficult terrain, and that isn't the case. Even the "super fast" eldar aspect warriors are I1 when assaulting through terrain.

No, the Initiative description makes it clear that it affects how fast/slow you fight:
"How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its Initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first. A normal human is Initiative 3, while an agile Eldar Aspect Warrior is Initiative 5."

So lowering the initiative is slowing the creature in close combat. This has nothing to do with how fast you moved.

copper.talos wrote:No, the Initiative description makes it clear that it affects how fast/slow you fight:
"How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its Initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first. A normal human is Initiative 3, while an agile Eldar Aspect Warrior is Initiative 5."

So lowering the initiative is slowing the creature in close combat. This has nothing to do with how fast you moved.

*I* Know it doesn't. Following your posts in this thread though, I don't think *you* do.

What I am saying is that moving in terrain can slow you down when moving and when fighting in cc. This is represented in each case by moving less that normal and by having lower I. Wraiths are never slowed by terrain. There is no qualifier in that. Any kind of slowing down cause by terrain is effectively ignored.

copper.talos wrote:What I am saying is that moving in terrain can slow you down when moving and when fighting in cc. This is represented in each case by moving less that normal and by having lower I. Wraiths are never slowed by terrain. There is no qualifier in that. Any kind of slowing down cause by terrain is effectively ignored.

And what I'm saying is that there is no rules basis for that statement. There is fluff support, but that's essentially meaningless.