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You are allowed to measure when the rules call for it is the ruling, so I don't see how that precludes you measuring the distance when you are choosing where to land.

Kinda defeats the purpose of the homer otherwise. Not much of a homer if you can't actually home in on it but rather have to stumble across it?

"You are allowed to measure when the rules call for it is the ruling,"

Yes, so you measure after placement. You have no permission NOR do you have a requirement to measure before placement

No I don't agree, you are measuring for the purposes of the rule of the Teleport Homer to work out the area of effect. There is no stipulation that you have to measure before or after you drop.

The only two instances I've seen which you are specifically directed to measure after the declaration of the activity is shooting and assaulting.

Sure it adds some extra spice to take the chance of being outside the range of the homer but I can't find a rule to say you have to do it that way.

The TH doesn't have an area of effect. You measure to the unit after placing the deep strke marker. Then you determine scatter.

What? Of course it has an area of effect, a 6" radius circle around the bearer .

I still don't see a specific rule that says you have to place then measure.

Magpie wrote:What? Of course it has an area of effect, a 6" radius circle around the bearer .

I still don't see a specific rule that says you have to place then measure.

You're reading the rules incorrectly.

For something to happen, you must have permission for it to happen.
To be able to shoot, you must have permission to shoot.
To be able to move, you must have permission to move.
To be able to measure then place, you must have permission to measure then place.

Where in the Deep Strike rules does it give you permission to measure for a Teleport Homer?

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have to chosen to deepstrike close to your models; whether that is found to be within 6" or not, you are choosing where to place the moels. Nothing in there allows you permission to measure this distance, as it is not necessary to comply with the no-scatter effect

I still don't agree, nos.

When I read it, the "choose" line gives implicit permission to see if you're within 6", otherwise, you're not "choosing" to deep strike within 6".

The prepositional phrase "within 6" of a model carrying. . " cannot stand on its own. It relies on the first part of the phrase to tell you how to do what you're doing "within 6"".

So, if I am choosing to deep strike within 6" of a model carrying a teleport homer, I am being restricted from "choosing" this by being told I cannot measure it.

I believe there is implicit permission there.

I see what you're saying - you're saying that "choose" is simply referring to "choosing to deep strike". And you're partly right, it is referring to Deep striking, but not that you're simply choosing to deep strike, rather how you're choosing to deep strike. There is a complimentary prepositional phrase telling you that if you "choose to do so within 6"", then something happens. Without being able to measure, you cannot "choose to do so within".


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rigeld2 wrote:

Where in the Deep Strike rules does it give you permission to measure for a Teleport Homer?

It doesn't. The teleport homer rules tell you to choose to do something within 6" of a model. If I choose to do something within 6", I am given permission to check whether or not I am within 6" to see if that choice is restricted or not.

[quote=rigeld2You're reading the rules incorrectly.

Do the rules call for you to measure the 6" before you place any models? No, because no rule is broken if you do not place the model within 6"

Magpie wrote:[Your interpretation of the rules is not "the rules". I accept that you read them this way but also please accept that I don't.
We are debating an interpretation here not your right and I am trying to change your mind.
So I am not reading the rules incorrectly I am interpreting them differently to you.
I am seeking to learn here so reference to the printed words and the conclusions that you draw from those words and the rationale that you use to come to those conclusions would be very much appreciated.

And I'm trying to make them. I wasn't trying to be insulting - rather I was trying to educate. You seem to be reading the rules as "It doesn't say I can't." That's not how 40k works. It has to say "You can."

Which section in the rules is says I need permission to measure anything?

There is no section that says "no measurements may be made unless specifically allowed" that I am aware of.
It says simply "unless the rules call for it" and give some examples and ends with etc. The rule is a general guideline not a definitive yes/no situation and requires a degree of interpretation.

Can you point me in the direction of where it says you measure after moving? Not being adversarial I genuinely want to follow your train of thought.

Magpie wrote:Can you point me in the direction of where it says you measure after moving? Not being adversarial I genuinely want to follow your train of thought.

Once you're finished moving you must be no more than 2" apart. I quoted that above.
How do you find out if you're more or less than 2"? Measure.

Rigeld and Nos, you two are making a grammatical error. It is as much of a grammatical error as 2+2=5 is a mathematical error.

For your interpretation to work, the sentence would need to read:

"If [models] enter play via Deep Strike and do so within 6" of a model carrying a teleport homer, then they will not scatter."

This is easily interpreted. If a model enters play via deep strike and is found to be within 6" of a model with a teleport homer, then they will not scatter. The inclusion of the word "choose" changes the meaning of the entire sentence:

"If [models] enter play via Deep Strike and choose to do so within 6" of a model carrying a teleport homer, then they will not scatter."

These are two completely different sentences, yet you're saying they mean the same thing. Grammatically, this is just not the case. "Choose" is not referring to what you're doing - you've already "chosen" to deep strike - that is clear by the first part of the rule. If you hadn't already chosen to deep strike, you wouldn't even be concerned about teleport homers anyway. What you're choosing is how you Deep Strike.

This is integral to the argument, because if you can "choose" to deep strike within 6", then I have to be able to measure where I can land, otherwise, I'm not being allowed to choose, and that is breaking the rule of the Teleport Homer.

Similarly, you're never allowed to measure for a Sanguinary Priest's FNP bubble, but because a unit is allowed to benefit from his Blood Chalice, we allow a measurement because to do otherwise might deny the player a rule he is entitled to (unless you make all your opponents guess whether their unit is within 6" or not before they take their FNP rolls).

puma713 wrote:Rigeld and Nos, you two are making a grammatical error. It is as much of a grammatical error as 2+2=5 is a mathematical error.

That's kind of insulting.

"If [models] enter play via Deep Strike and choose to do so within 6" of a model carrying a teleport homer, then they will not scatter."

These are two completely different sentences, yet you're saying they mean the same thing. Grammatically, this is just not the case. "Choose" is not referring to what you're doing - you've already "chosen" to deep strike - that is clear by the first part of the rule. If you hadn't already chosen to deep strike, you wouldn't even be concerned about teleport homers anyway. What you're choosing is how you Deep Strike.

You choose where to place the deep strike marker. If you choose to place that within 6" you don't scatter.

This is integral to argument, because if you can "choose" to deep strike within 6", then I have to be able to measure where I can land, otherwise, I'm not being allowed to choose, and that is breaking the rule of Teleport Homer.

No - you choose where to land. If it's within 6" you don't scatter.

Similarly, you're never allowed to measure for a Sanguinary Priest's FNP bubble, but because the unit is allowed to benefit from his Blood Chalice, we allow a measurement because to do otherwise might deny the player a rule he is entitled to.

Not true - you're allowed to measure when you attempt to use the rule - in fact, you must measure. If you happen to be outside the bubble, you can't use the ability.

Without being able to measure, you could claim to be inside 6" from 48" away.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:Rigeld and Nos, you two are making a grammatical error. It is as much of a grammatical error as 2+2=5 is a mathematical error.

That's kind of insulting.

It wasn't meant to be. What I meant by that was you're making an error of structure, not one of understanding. You're not reading the sentence correctly because you're dismissing a prepositional phrase that is complementing a complex verb that is at the heart of the sentence (and therefore, the rule).

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:
"If [models] enter play via Deep Strike and choose to do so within 6" of a model carrying a teleport homer, then they will not scatter."

These are two completely different sentences, yet you're saying they mean the same thing. Grammatically, this is just not the case. "Choose" is not referring to what you're doing - you've already "chosen" to deep strike - that is clear by the first part of the rule. If you hadn't already chosen to deep strike, you wouldn't even be concerned about teleport homers anyway. What you're choosing is how you Deep Strike.

You choose where to place the deep strike marker. If you choose to place that within 6" you don't scatter.

Here is where you are making your mistake. If I cannot "choose to place within 6", then I am not being allowed to follow the rules of the teleport homer. By telling me that I have to place, and then find out if I have placed within 6", then you've removed my "choice". I have a choice to place the marker within 6" or not. You're telling me I have a choice to place the marker and then find out if it is within 6" or not. That is grammatically incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:This is integral to argument, because if you can "choose" to deep strike within 6", then I have to be able to measure where I can land, otherwise, I'm not being allowed to choose, and that is breaking the rule of Teleport Homer.

No - you choose where to land. If it's within 6" you don't scatter.

Again, you've completely dismissed the preposition "within" that relies on the structure of the sentence before it. Grammatically, you cannot separate "choose to do so" and "within 6"" - that is why 'within' is a preposition, because it cannot stand on its own.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:Similarly, you're never allowed to measure for a Sanguinary Priest's FNP bubble, but because the unit is allowed to benefit from his Blood Chalice, we allow a measurement because to do otherwise might deny the player a rule he is entitled to.

Not true - you're allowed to measure when you attempt to use the rule - in fact, you must measure. If you happen to be outside the bubble, you can't use the ability.

Without being able to measure, you could claim to be inside 6" from 48" away.

So...? Does that give you permission to measure? No. We allow it because if you did not, then you may (or may not) deny your opponent a rule that he is entitled to. And that would be breaking the rules.

puma713 wrote:It wasn't meant to be.

Fair enough.

Here is where you are making your mistake. If I cannot "choose to place within 6", then I am not being allowed to follow the rules of the teleport homer. By telling me that I have to place, and then find out if I have placed within 6", then you've removed my "choice". I have a choice to place the marker within 6" or not. You're telling me I have a choice to place the marker and then find out if it is within 6" or not. That is grammatically incorrect.

I understand your statement, but disagree that I've removed your choice. Even without a Teleport Homer, you have the choice of Deep Striking within 6" of a friendly unit. The Teleport Homer simply rewards you for doing so.

Again, you've completely dismissed the preposition "within" that relies on the structure of the sentence before it. Grammatically, you cannot separate "choose to do so" and "within 6"" - that is why 'within' is a preposition, because it cannot stand on its own.

I'm not separating them.

So...? Does that give you permission to measure? No. We allow it because if you did not, then you may (or may not) deny your opponent a rule that he is entitled to. And that would be breaking the rules.

Actually it requires measurement - because you're denied the benefit if you're outside 6". You do not have permission to access FNP outside of 6", so you have to make sure you're inside 6". How do you figure out the distance between two points?

rigeld2 wrote:
I understand your statement, but disagree that I've removed your choice. Even without a Teleport Homer, you have the choice of Deep Striking within 6" of a friendly unit. The Teleport Homer simply rewards you for doing so.

No, you don't. Without a teleport homer, you simply enter play via deep strike. Period. There are no choices associated with it. That is the error you're making. You're associating "choose to do so" with 'Entering play via deep strike' and not 'within 6"'. The teleport homer gives you permission to deep strike within 6" of it. The "choice" has nothing to do with the deep striking, but the choice to do so within 6" of a model carrying the teleport homer.

That is why I said you were making an error of structure. Remove the prepositional phrase and the sentence will no longer make sense:

If [models] enter play via deep strike and choose to do so, then they will not scatter."

That is what you're doing when you associate the phrases incorrectly.

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not separating them.

But you are. "Choose to do so and within 6" are tethered together. That is what the choice is all about, where you are going to deep strike. The only thing that even gives you a "choice" at all, is the teleport homer.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:So...? Does that give you permission to measure? No. We allow it because if you did not, then you may (or may not) deny your opponent a rule that he is entitled to. And that would be breaking the rules.

Actually it requires measurement - because you're denied the benefit if you're outside 6". You do not have permission to access FNP outside of 6", so you have to make sure you're inside 6".

All of these are good points, but still none of them give you permission to measure. Measuring for the Blood Chalice and measuring for the Teleport Homer are the same argument, yet you're allowing someone to measure for the Blood Chalice and not the Teleport Homer.

Take your own sentence:

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually[the teleport homer] requires measurement - because you're denied the benefit if you're outside 6". You do not have permission to access [the teleport homer] outside of 6", so you have to make sure you're inside 6".

That is exactly the point.

puma713 wrote:No, you don't. Without a teleport homer, you simply enter play via deep strike. Period. There are no choices associated with it. That is the error you're making. You're associating "choose to do so" with 'Entering play via deep strike' and not 'within 6"'. The teleport homer gives you permission to deep strike within 6" of it. The "choice" has nothing to do with the deep striking, but the choice to do so within 6" of a model carrying the teleport homer.

You're misreading me. You choose where to place your Deep Strike marker. If you choose to do so within 6" of the TH, you don't scatter.

If [models] enter play via deep strike and choose to do so, then they will not scatter."

That is what you're doing when you associate the phrases incorrectly.

Good thing that's not what I'm saying then.

All of these are good points, but still none of them give you permission to measure. Measuring for the Blood Chalice and measuring for the Teleport Homer are the same argument, yet you're allowing someone to roll for the Blood Chalice and not the Teleport Homer.

No, that's false. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying you're not allowed to *pre-measure* for either one. You can't move part of a unit, measure for the chalice, find out you're at 6.1", then modify your movement. That's illegal. You measure when you are going to gain the benefit. Just like the TH.

When you are shot, you measure for the chalice, find out you're at 5.9", and get FNP.
When you Deep Strike, you measure for the TH, find out you're at 5.9", and don't scatter.

Take your own sentence:

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually the teleport homer requires measurement - because you're denied the benefit if you're outside 6". You do not have permission to access [the teleport homer outside of 6", so you have to make sure you're inside 6".

That is the point.

Right - you have to measure. After you Deep Strike. Because you choose where to place the marker, you have the choice of putting it within 6". There's no requirement to measure there.
*AFTER* the Deep Strike marker has been placed, you try to scatter. That's when you measure for the TH.

I've never, and will never, say you're unable to measure for the TH. I will and am saying you're not able to pre-measure for the TH.

rigeld2 wrote:You choose where to place your Deep Strike marker. If you choose to do so within 6" of the TH, you don't scatter.

I'm not going to address the rest, because you're missing this fundamental part of the rule and we may just have to agree to disagree. Again, for the third or fourth time, you're not directly linking "choose to do so" and 'within 6"'.

The only choice you have (because the teleport homer expressly gives it to you) is to deep strike within 6" of it, or not. If I cannot measure where the 6" is, then you have removed half of the choice. If I do not have the ability to make the choice, then the teleport homer rule is being broken.



Sounds like the root of our disagreement is the notion of choice and what it entails.

puma713 wrote:The only choice you have (because the teleport homer expressly gives it to you) is to deep strike within 6" of it, or not. If I cannot measure where the 6" is, then you have removed half of the choice. If I do not have the ability to make the choice, then the teleport homer rule is being broken.

You choose where to place your Deep Strike marker. If you choose to do that near a TH, then you are rewarded if it's within 6".
You can't measure that range until the marker is on the table (because you don't have anything to measure to).
You have no permission to move your Deep Strike marker after you've placed it for measurement.
Nothing in that process denies you from making the choice.

we may just have to agree to disagree

Fair enough.

Another way of disallowing the measurement would be "If where you chose to place the Deep Strike marker is within 6" of a teleport homer......" ?

Is it cheating to know how long and how wide your hand is in inches ?

Puma would you agree that you can measure your clearances from terrain and enemies?

Magpie wrote:
Puma would you agree that you can measure your clearances from terrain and enemies?

No. The only way I think you can measure as you're deep striking is if you are given permission to. I believe that teleport homers and chaos icons give you that permission.

You have no permission to see if you can clear terrain/enemies. If you did, why would you need a mishap chart?

Cos the mishap comes when you scatter, but yeh I am more inclined to think that you can only estimate that an area is big enough/clear enough.

Magpie wrote:Is it cheating to know how long and how wide your hand is in inches ?

No. Is it cheating to use your hand to premeasure? Yes.

Estimate all you want, but don't pick up a measuring device unless you're allowed to.

= joke not a question cobber.

The choice is where to deepstrike. If you choose to do so within 6" of X, Y effect happens

This does not allow you to measure the distance to X, as the rules do not call for it - if you "choose" to do so and are found to be within 6" is the implication there.

You are not breaking any rules if you find out you are not within 6", as there is no requirement for you to fulfill the "no scatter" rule. You are treating the "choose" as an obligation you have placed on the model that it must fulfill, when that is not how the sentence is structured

But it doesn't say "are found to be within" it says "choose to do so within"

Hence the implication, as I explicitly stated. Choosing to place a model at X position does not give you permission or requirement to measure where X is, so you cannot measure.

Well it's 2 on one side and 2 on the other.

Dice roll time it seems.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hence the implication, as I explicitly stated. Choosing to place a model at X position does not give you permission or requirement to measure where X is, so you cannot measure.

That depends completely on how you parse the grammar of the sentence (does the "choose" refer to deep striking or placing within 6" of teleport homer). If first, you're definitely correct. If second, there is an implicit permission which is enough in this case. Personally I can read the sentence both ways, but I'm neither native English speaker nor have I studied English grammar/syntax at university level (which is far more important)