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Magpie wrote:Well it's 2 on one side and 2 on the other.

Dice roll time it seems.

Not in YMDC.
The dice off rule is useless. Please stop referring to it.

Yes I keep thinking YDMC is for rule discussion but it is seemingly a forum for dogma based rules edicts.

To put it in simple terms "dice roll time" is shorthand for "well I'm not getting a clear resolution here so it's something I'll have to work out on the day with whomever I am playing and probably end up with the dice."

nosferatu1001 wrote:

This does not allow you to measure the distance to X, as the rules do not call for it - if you "choose" to do so and are found to be within 6" is the implication there.

This is incorrect, plain and simply. To the rules of the english language, this is as incorrect as 2+2=5 is to the structure of mathematics. When you look at 2+2=5, you know that it is not correct because the rules of mathematics tell you so. This is the same occasion with the rules of English.

To have the rules mean what you posted above, the sentence would need to say:

If [models] enter play via deep strike and do so within 6" of a teleport homer, then they do not scatter."

This is not what the rules say. The rules say:

If [models] enter play via deep strike and choose to do so within 6" of a teleport homer, then they do not scatter."

This is not the same sentence, yet you are reading them identically. That is incorrect. The second sentence gives the [models] a choice to land within 6" of the teleport homer, or not.

Perhaps it would help if we broke down the sentence (I am paraphrasing, to remove the little detail and get down to the meat of the sentence):

If (subordinate conjunction) [models] (noun) enter (verb) play (direct object) via deep strike (adverb) and (coordinating conjunction) choose to do so (complex verb) within (preposition) 6" (object of the preposition). . .


In the rules of the English language, "within 6"" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adverb. It is asking the question, How did you "choose to do so"?. Of course, the answer would be, Within 6". To say that I cannot actually know where 6" of a teleport homer is, is to say that I may not make the choice.

You have to understand that the choice is not referring to the generic choice of simply placing your marker anywhere, but of entering play via deep strike within 6" of a model with a teleport homer. Or not.

So the act of giving you a specific choice to be within 6" means you have permission to measure that distance because if you aren't allowed to measure the distance you then your choice is being taken away so it isn't a choice at all?

Is that what you are saying?

Magpie wrote:So the act of giving you a specific choice to be within 6" means you have permission to measure that distance because if you aren't allowed to measure the distance you then your choice is being taken away so it isn't a choice at all?

Is that what you are saying?

That is what I believe, yes. I think that the rule giving you a choice to place your model within 6" is enough implicit permission to measure the 6" out. If I am not allowed to measure, it is my opinion, that the specific choice to place the model within 6" of the teleport homer has been removed. It is like saying you have a choice between A and B, but you cannot actually "choose" B. And if you remove the choice, then the rules for the teleport homer are being broken.

Much like not allowing me to measure my Blood Chalice could deny me my FNP roll, and then the rule of the Blood Chalice would be broken.

Sounds good,

Pretty sure it can't, but I have seen it argued that it can but the TH cannot effect units arriving via "The Summoning"

A Mystic can, in fact the Mystic can help anyone DS'ing ?

Magpie wrote:Sounds good,

Pretty sure it can't, but I have seen it argued that it can but the TH cannot effect units arriving via "The Summoning"

I don't think it can be "argued" at all. The teleport homer rules say that you must be entering by teleport, not "other means".

Magpie wrote:A Mystic can, in fact the Mystic can help anyone DS'ing ?

The mystic can be "argued". The teleport homer cannot.

The argument is that the squad is not "entering play", and that is what the Mystic affects.

I am only saying it can be argued because I have seen it so, I don't agree necessarily.

The Mystic thing is covered in FAQ as a specific "yes it can".

Would "removed from the tabletop" cover the in play/ not in play /entering play" thing ?

puma713 wrote:In the rules of the English language, "within 6"" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adverb. It is asking the question, How did you "choose to do so"?. Of course, the answer would be, Within 6". To say that I cannot actually know where 6" of a teleport homer is, is to say that I may not make the choice.

You have to understand that the choice is not referring to the generic choice of simply placing your marker anywhere, but of entering play via deep strike within 6" of a model with a teleport homer. Or not.

I can't agree with Nos that it's 100% black and white; I concede that there's some ambiguity here. However IMO the "choose" in the phrase refers to the fact that you have a choice of where to place your model. The homer is not meant to give you perfect control with no risk, unless you underestimate the distance.

Mannahnin wrote: the "choose" in the phrase refers to the fact that you have a choice of where to place your model.

You're right. You have two choices:

A) Within 6" of a model with a teleport homer.

B) Outside of A.

To say that I cannot find out where 6" of a model with a teleport homer is, is to say that I cannot choose A. I can be lucky enough to "get" A, but that is not a choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote: The homer is not meant to give you perfect control with no risk

I disagree. I think that is exactly what they're for.

puma713 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: the "choose" in the phrase refers to the fact that you have a choice of where to place your model.

You're right. You have two choices:

A) Within 6" of a model with a teleport homer.

B) Outside of A.

To say that I cannot find out where 6" of a model with a teleport homer is, is to say that I cannot choose A. I can be lucky enough to "get" A, but that is not a choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote: The homer is not meant to give you perfect control with no risk

I disagree. I think that is exactly what they're for.

Yes that is what lead me to this question in the first place, I guess it is a mortal sin to include fluff in the debate but honestly where the rule isn't clear the fluff should act as a bit of a guide surely?
The fluff for the homer says the Cruisers "lock on" so you'd reckon that points to the removal of the risk.

I disagree. You have an very large range of choices (anywhere on the table not in Impassible terrain or on top of another model) for where to place you model. If you do choose a spot which is within 6" of your homer, you don't scatter.

The issue is important in my chaos army because my terminators aren't as perfectly accurate as my lesser daemons.

Mannahnin wrote:If you do choose a spot which is within 6" of your homer, you don't scatter.

Then you are not reading the sentence correctly. That is the point of my posts throughout the thread. For the rule to work this way, it would need to read:

If [models] enter play via deep strike and do so within 6" of a model with a teleport homer, then they do not scatter.

This is very simply read. If a model deep strikes within 6" of a model with a teleport homer, then they will not scatter. No choices involved - simply put, if you find yourself within 6", then you won't scatter.

This is not the same sentence as:

If [models] enter play via deep strike and choose to do so within 6" of a model with a teleport homer, then they do not scatter."

There is a choice involved here. And the choice is connected intrinsically to "within 6" of a model with a teleport homer". That is what the choice is about. The prepositional phrase makes it so. The two sentences aren't identical, yet you're reading them as if they are.



Edit: Think about it - why include the verb phrase about "choosing to do so" anyway? What purpose does it serve? You've already "chosen" to deep strike. That is evident because you're discussing a teleport homer. You don't need to be told to choose to place your marker. That is what the deep strike rules tell you to do. The teleport homer creates a specific exception giving you permission to choose a spot within 6" of it. That is exactly the purpose that the verb phrase "choose to do so" serves - it gives the prepositional phrase "within 6"" something to modify.

Mannahnin wrote:

The issue is important in my chaos army because my terminators aren't as perfectly accurate as my lesser daemons.

You are hamstringing yourself. BTW, I don't have a dog in this fight. I play Eldar and Tyranids. I couldn't care less about teleport homers, and allow all of my opponents to deep strike off of them. I wouldn't think of doing it any other way.

Mannahnin wrote:I disagree. You have an very large range of choices (anywhere on the table not in Impassible terrain or on top of another model) for where to place you model. If you do choose a spot which is within 6" of your homer, you don't scatter.

The issue is important in my chaos army because my terminators aren't as perfectly accurate as my lesser daemons.

Yes I see that it does, the lesser daemons MUST be within 6" and the other may choose to in a similar manner to what Puma says.

As an aside I see now why Chaos units cannot use my teleport beacons, they aren't arriving in the same way as mine are, they are homing in on a Psychic Beacon (the Icon), which is what a Mystic is so that explains why the Mystic's rules specifies friendly units.

Excellent result ! I am learning!

Magpie: The reason I can't use enemy teleport homers is because of the ruling in the GW FAQ about not being able to use enemy equipment unless it explicitly says that you can.

puma713 wrote:This is not the same sentence as:

If [models] enter play via deep strike and choose to do so within 6" of a model with a teleport homer, then they do not scatter."

There is a choice involved here. And the choice is connected intrinsically to "within 6" of a model with a teleport homer". That is what the choice is about. The prepositional phrase makes it so. The two sentences aren't identical, yet you're reading them as if they are.

I see your point. I disagree that you've accurately parsed GW's meaning from the phrase.

You must declare you are using homers. If you choose to use your homers, from that point on you can no longer choose to place your initial model anywhere on the board, but in exchange you get placed within 6 inches of a homer on the board. If you choose to use your homers but then find that no legal position exsists, your beat and mishap, because you already choose to arrive via homer.

Sure Mannahnin, but I mean I now see where the thinking for the ruling is coming from that's all.

WHOA ! Devian, what are you basing that on? I've not been able to find anything to say that you have to declare and once you do, it's homer or nothing.

He's inferring it from Puma's reading.

If you can choose beforehand to place unerringly within 6"...

Is that coming from the assaulting and shooting philosophy of declare then you are locked in?

If so why not use the possibly more pertinent philosophy of movement which is measure then decide where and even if you are going to move?

Mannahnin wrote:He's inferring it from Puma's reading.

How so?

DevianID wrote:You must declare you are using homers.

I disagree. Homers just work, like a Blood Chalice. You don't use them.

DevianID wrote:If you choose to use your homers, from that point on you can no longer choose to place your initial model anywhere on the board, but in exchange you get placed within 6 inches of a homer on the board.

This is not inferred from what I was saying. This has nothing to do with what I was saying. If you enter play via deep strike, you can choose to land within 6" of a model carrying a homer, or not. That is the other side of the choice.

DevianID wrote:If you choose to use your homers but then find that no legal position exists, your beat and mishap, because you already choose to arrive via homer.

And this just doesn't make sense.

Nowhere does it say that simply having a teleport homer constitutes an obligation to use it to land. But, if you choose to land within 6" of it (see, notice 'choose' - either you choose to land within 6", or you don't), then you will not scatter.

You're making an inverse argument, but actually saying the same thing as everyone else. Except where they're saying you don't have a choice to land within 6", you're saying you don't have a choice to land elsewhere if you're using a teleport homer.

Not sure where you got that.

Magpie wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:How much clearer do you need?

Clear enough to ensure that "models in Terminator armour" actually means "friendly models in Terminator armour"

This reminds me of a game I played once (Another system) and the rules were used "He" so all of a sudden the person I was playing said it didnt work, because she was a girl, and the rules used "he"
If there is an upgrade, and it does not clearly say the person you are playing can use it (or "even none freindly") then they cant get a benifit from something they didnt pay for.

Yeh I get that much mate, but what I was saying was a series of very specific permissions are given as to what can home in on the beacon, 2 specific types of grey knights and a general case of "any model in terminator armour" without qualification.

But trust me I am more than happy to accept that the dark forces cannot land on me with my own beacons.

I ask these questions to arm myself with some ration arguments as to why that can't happen,

the question is how will this be played at adepticon.?
Premeasure or no Premeasure.

Too late for a guarantee. We won't have time for another council meeting and INAT update before the event.

By the way Puma is reading it you MUST measure in any case, because if you choose to NOT arrive within 6" you have to measure to make sure you are not within 6"

Its a teleport homer. Surely if you are using the teleport homer you are locking onto its signal, rather than transmitting your guys into the general area and hoping they can benefit from it...

BBRB says, pg.3: (hope this is'nt breaking the rules?)

"In general players are not allowed to measure any distance EXCEPT when the rules call for it (e.g. ......., ......., TO WORK OUT A RULES AREA OF EFFECT, WHEN DEPLOYING THEIR FORCES, etc.)"

How does this fit the argument? I say measure out 6" radius from homer, place first model, roll for scatter? Its a "Teleport Homer" not a Teleport Guesser!

Now as to "who" can use a particular device/power to assist in DS is up for debate I guess? Don't see how anyone can honestly claim that armies could be allowed to benefit from an enemies tech, but... everyone's always trying for some kind of an edge!?!

The question about using enemy equipment is answered in the main rulebook FAQ.