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Lotus wrote:Space Marine Assault Squads are pretty horrible in the vanilla codex. Even for their intended purpose they are way too expensive. My possible solutions:

Reduce cost of them to around 15 PPM instead of the 18-19.
or
Give them Rending (think about it, Chainswords really should have rending)
or
Increase the number of base attacks from 1 to 2 and a slight points increase to prevent it from being unbalanced

Honestly #1 is probably the safest bet, but #2 combined with #3 would be the most fun (for the Space Marine player only though).

15 ppm per model is a no mate. that would make them cheaper then tactical marine squads despite there jump packs , wich is un logical. having more men per squad might be a better option.

I agree chainswords need something to show there more then a pointy stick/branch/knife, but there bonus should go to wounding not ap ( like re the 1's for wounding or some crap like that) But that is already a discussion on ppr, there is thread for it.

But i agree with the extra attack. that go for a healthy I4 S4 WS 4 with 4 attacks.

@redcapscorner

Remember each army has ther own feel to it, own backround etc... And the codices portray that with options and costs. So yes GK interceptors are not fantastic compared to other codices, but they surpass other codices in other ways. You see what im trying to say ?

As for the tau codex, its still V4, so alot of things need to be changed to gear up with the new V5 ruleset, and some units just dont cut it....

for dark angels(and vanilla) assault marines- love the models love the diea but they just aren't effective

mayfist wrote:

Lotus wrote:Space Marine Assault Squads are pretty horrible in the vanilla codex. Even for their intended purpose they are way too expensive. My possible solutions:

Reduce cost of them to around 15 PPM instead of the 18-19.
or
Give them Rending (think about it, Chainswords really should have rending)
or
Increase the number of base attacks from 1 to 2 and a slight points increase to prevent it from being unbalanced

Honestly #1 is probably the safest bet, but #2 combined with #3 would be the most fun (for the Space Marine player only though).

15 ppm per model is a no mate. that would make them cheaper then tactical marine squads despite there jump packs , wich is un logical. having more men per squad might be a better option.

So what if they'd be cheaper? They're not scoring, they don't get heavy weapons and they don't get melta weapons. They also have to get into melee range to do damage, without any special rules to up their odds of winning, unlike the melee squads of the BlackTemplars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

Swooping hawks for Eldar! They look cool, but too expensiv!

Swooping Hawks are a great example of a unit which needs a boost. (As are Eldar in general)

Lord Magnus wrote:Swooping Hawks are a great example of a unit which needs a boost. (As are Eldar in general)

Oh yeah, when I first saw this thread the first things I thought of were these and Shining Spears. Especially with the Swooping Hawks, it's a shame to have such nice models sitting on the shelf without much in the way of tabletop action.

Rampage wrote:

Lord Magnus wrote:Swooping Hawks are a great example of a unit which needs a boost. (As are Eldar in general)

Oh yeah, when I first saw this thread the first things I thought of were these and Shining Spears. Especially with the Swooping Hawks, it's a shame to have such nice models sitting on the shelf without much in the way of tabletop action.

While I don't own Eldar, I know what you mean about the sitting on the shelf. These are beautiful models and they deserve to be painted and fielded, but they are so mediocre, Eldar are seeing the wear and tear of age, but these are unfortunately, especially underwhelming.

Flash Gitz. They are cool and can be dead killy, but they are really overpriced. Then comes the upgrades to. They are currently a giant point sink.

I'd say make their Snazzguns Assault 2 base, lower the cost of Badrukk to 100p, and maybe make them a wargear option for Nobz.

You could easily make Mandrakes better by giving them, offensive grenades (you can call it something else) at no cost & by increasing the cost of the Nightfiend by 10 pts. & giving him a pain token.

pyrovores.
nuff said.

Necrons
Lychguard, while not exactly UP, should be WS5, and stubborn. I do wish you could mix and match the options between shields and Warscythes.


Now, for the unit I think needs a lot of help, Triarch Praetorians.

2A base, is just for starters. Now, you gotta figure out what kind role they should play. I was thinking about giving them counter-attack as well, but they still suffer from their I2 and No kind of invul.

Wraiths can purchase whipcoils, and a 3++ to mitigate this. I was thinking perhaps giving Praetorians the option to buy a piece of wargear that +5 points works similar to the banshee masks. Make it able to go off on a successful counter attack, and you have quite the powerful assault unit, able to stand toe-to-toe with other elites.

For CSM, there are a few easy fixes:

Noise Marines, factor the Sonic Blasters into their base cost, with the option to swap out their bolters for them no extra cost. Blastmaster cut by about 20 or so points.

Give Chaos Terminators Relentless.

Replace the Scouts option on the Possessed table with an extra CCW, and reduce them to about 22-24 or so points each.

Reduce the cost of Havoc heavy weapons to bring them in line with the current meta.

Storm Troopers for IG. Make them WS 4 or make their lasgun have a higher str.

For space wolves, I'd say Skyclaws. Cool little unit, but doesn't have enough power behind it to bother. A few suggestions: Allow wolf guard to join them, increase the squad cap from 10 to 15 and allow them the same upgrades as bloodclaws, or just allow them the second special weapon at 10.
In the SW dex the only thing I really would love to play more of but don't because they're so lackluster is the 'claws. Blood, sky or swift... they're just... meh.

Sang guard for the blood angels they cost the same as terminators but no invuls give them a base 5++ and id be happy

Space wolf, Bikers, Assualt Marines, Scouts and Fenrisian Wolves.

Basically every Space wolf fast attack excluding thunderwolf needs a bit of a boost.

They made almost everything in fast attack and scouts vanilla and everything else wolfy but NOT them!

Bikers and buggies needed something to make em more SW like and better than or worst than the rest. Or just not have them in the codex at all.

rigeld2 wrote:Tyranids:

Lictors, Pyrovores, Harpies, Carnifexes, Warriors/Shrikes...

i second the lictors, my buddy plays nids and he loves his lictor, but it's just not worth it anymore.

my suggestion is drop it back down to one model instead of a brood, and have it assault the turn it deepstrikes. basically the old lictor. that guy was scary especially for me as a tau player

Flash gitz

They cost too much

They take HS slot

They don't have dedicated transport

They are random with their ap

Tankbustas do it better and cheaper

bs 3, ap roll on d3 (1-2= ap 1, 3-4= ap 4, 5-6= ap -), kaptin badrukk should be 35-50 points cheaper and in elite slot or outside of force organization chart

Eldar Guardians.

In general these just cost a lot with nothing to show for it. There are two options, either simply dumping their price (and completely ignoring everything regarding their technological advantage and how precious each Eldar life is) or improving their gear. I'm not at all unfriendly to the notion that they aren't professional killing machines, though, so no BS or WS increase.
Problem analysis: Guardians suffer from two things. (1) They perform the same role in their own right as that of the Dire Avengers which is light assault infantry and (2) they also have standard weapons that do not function with their special weapons. This applies to both Defenders and Storm. Additionally, we have a single unit entry which specify two distinctly different units with different options.
Suggested solution:
1. Combine Storm with Defenders.
2. Heavy weapon options: the squad may be accompanied by a weapons platform. This takes up the space of an extra model for transportation and is usable by any member of the squad, Warlock included, similar to Artillery.
3. Special weapon options: every one-in-three may replace their ranged weapon with with one of the following weapons: power weapon and shuriken pistol +4 points, fusion gun +5 points, flamer +6 points, Shuriken Cannon +10 points, Haywire Launcher +10 points.
4. Standard weapon options: Each Guardian is armed with a close combat weapon, plasma grenades and a Shuriken Catapult (which is now r18"). Any number of Guardians may replace their catapult with: Shuriken Pistol +0 points, lasblaster +0 points or Gravitic Rifle (R36" S4 AP5 Assault 1 - i.e. a Long Rifle that's not sniper and assault).
5. And this is important in order to separate DA from Guardians - Dire Avengers are now additionally equipped with Plasma Grenades, Close Combat Weapon, Shuriken Pistol. Avenger Shuriken Catapult now has a secondary fire mode which is Heavy 3. Bladestorm now grants twin-link with no drawbacks. No extra or reduced costs. Please note that this tones down Bladestorm by an important fraction and makes the unit perform closer to fluff (which is a NON-specialised ground troop).

Eldar Swooping Hawks.

In terms of performance these are more or less equivalent of r24" Guardians with jump packs and an added grenade pack (higher BS cancels lower S unless we're talking about vehicles).
Problem analysis: Not only does the Swooping Hawks generally fail to perform well, they are light infantry which set down the entire squad inside a perfect blast radius from a missile launcher and as if that wasn't enough their special ability to Skyleap combined with their less than attractive weapons and rather attractive grenade barrage makes them behave rather oddly - all for the cost of Aun'va so to speak.
Suggested solution:
1. Reduce point cost to 16 ppm. The standard equipment is appropriate but ineffective for a 21 point model.
2. Change unit type to Jet Infantry. Swooping Hawks die to a single missile launcher on the turn they arrive. Hawks are constantly in flight and do not use their wings for extended jumps, but for flight. Change unit type to Jet Infantry.
4. Change Skyleap to grant Turbo-Boost USR. Hawks behave oddly and are also supposed to be fast. (Note that you CAN'T use assault phase movement if Turbo-boosting)
5. Replace Intercept with Hit and Run at increased cost. Hitting vehicles, while neat, has a tendency to either do nothing or to kill the squad if the vehicle blows up.
6. Change the concept of Warp Spiders from light infantry hunters since they infringe on Swooping Hawks' intellectual property.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mayfist wrote:

Lotus wrote:Space Marine Assault Squads are pretty horrible in the vanilla codex. Even for their intended purpose they are way too expensive. My possible solutions:

Reduce cost of them to around 15 PPM instead of the 18-19.
or
Give them Rending (think about it, Chainswords really should have rending)
or
Increase the number of base attacks from 1 to 2 and a slight points increase to prevent it from being unbalanced

Honestly #1 is probably the safest bet, but #2 combined with #3 would be the most fun (for the Space Marine player only though).

15 ppm per model is a no mate. that would make them cheaper then tactical marine squads despite there jump packs , wich is un logical. having more men per squad might be a better option.

So what if they'd be cheaper? They're not scoring, they don't get heavy weapons and they don't get melta weapons. They also have to get into melee range to do damage, without any special rules to up their odds of winning, unlike the melee squads of the BlackTemplars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

You two would then agree that Eldar Striking Scorpions ought to be around 12 points per model. Striking Scorpions are, after all one less toughness and without jump pack with only a single extra attack to show for it. By extension this also means that Howling Banshees ought to be 12 points, since performance-wise Banshees and Scorpions compete with no clear winner.

I'm not serious. Scorpions aren't so bad as to merit that price, but neither are Assault Marines. Also, Chainswords shouldn't be rending, since rending is armour piercing not ripping. A chainsword is pretty much the anti-thesis for armour piercing since it applies grinding force over a large area and requires constant pressure in order to perform it's desired effect. I think, however, that Chainswords should take a number from the Eldar codex and across the board give a strength bonus of +1. Never underestimate the power of small changes, sometimes performance balance comes from small numbers and the mental appreciation of the player rather than... overt changes.

I agree that rending doesn't make sense for chainswords, but Assault Marines need something to make them not suck in the Vanilla Codex (and a price drop in the BT one). I'd personally be in favour of letting them have melt, although I still don't see anyone that isn't BA taking Assault Marines in an edition so thoroughly dominated by mech.