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We're starting up a 40K league at my store, and we're honestly "borrowing" as much as we can from the way Privateer Press runs the Warmachine leagues. Each season of the league will be four weeks long, and there'll be about four to eight weeks between each season to keep people from burning out. For each season, we want to change the rules of the game in some way to keep each season feeling fun and unique.

For season one, we want to take a unit in each codex that could be really cool but tends to underperform and change the rules for it a little bit to make it a little bit more desirable. I personally only play tau and grey knights, and have pretty good familiarity with blood angels, space wolves, and necrons, but most of the rest of the books out there are not my expertise. Does anyone have suggestions for units from each of the other codexes that seem cool, but just don't work the way you'd hope? Can you clue me in to what causes their weakness? Maybe even offer some suggestions on how to fix it? We'll probably run a similar season with different units later on down the road, so even if you can think of multiple units from a single codex, that would help.

I think these are the units we'll tweak for the armies I know:

Tau: Stealthsuits
Grey Knights: Interceptors (EDIT: willing to be talked out of this one, but it's a tough codex to pin down for a project like this)
Blood Angels: Sanguinary Guard
Space Wolves: actually, this is a tough one...
Necrons: Flayed Ones (EDIT: changed from originally proposed Deathmarks, as I had an idea and want to save them for a future season)

EDIT: Strongly leaning toward the following units for other armies so far, mostly based on this thread and talking with a few players at the store today. Still considering a lot of people's suggestions and looking through books.
Dark Eldar: Mandrakes
Tyranids: Lictors

Anyway, any thoughts?

Do Vespids for the Tau, they are a interesting unit but are in dire need of an update/upgrade.

To be honest each are very good in situation :/ thats my own opinion.

Apart from the necrons i am familiar with all those units and honestly given the right circumstance there pretty damn good !

In tourny lists they may not fit, but in campaigns and special scenarios....

Vespids are on the list of things tau needs updated, for certain, but my goal with this first season is to update things that people are likely to already own (or would consider owning) but be less than enthusiastic about playing. Think things that you thought looked cool visually or seemed cool on paper but when you actually went to run them, they were clearly outclassed by the alternatives. Vespids don't even seem slightly good on paper, and they're not that cool looking. I doubt any of our tau players own models for them, and they're sure as hell not going to buy them for a one-month league. (: I think stealthsuits fit the bill better, but sniper drones could work too. Flayed ones are another choice for necrons that could probably use a buff, actually, too. But again, most codexes have at least a few underperformers, and we can't change them all for the first season. It's good to have back-ups because those can be modified in later seasons. Even vespids will eventually get a rewrite (unless the new tau codex beats us to it).


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And you're right, none of the units I choose outright suck. But I'm not looking for units that suck. I'm looking for underperformers, and you can't tell me anything in my list is anything but an underperformer. Interceptors just don't run better enough than regular strike squads to justify the increase in points, sanguinary guard and stealthsuits are too fragile given how expensive they are, and deathmarks just don't work as well as they ought to.

Space Marine Assault Squads are pretty horrible in the vanilla codex. Even for their intended purpose they are way too expensive. My possible solutions:

Reduce cost of them to around 15 PPM instead of the 18-19.
or
Give them Rending (think about it, Chainswords really should have rending)
or
Increase the number of base attacks from 1 to 2 and a slight points increase to prevent it from being unbalanced

Honestly #1 is probably the safest bet, but #2 combined with #3 would be the most fun (for the Space Marine player only though).

I'd advise hacking on Stingwings for Tau, actually; try upping the range of their guns to 24" and see what happens. If you want a tweak for Stealthsuits, maybe improve the stealth field generators, 2d6x3 averages a 21" spotting distance but has a pretty big range (from 6" to 36"), 3d6+10" would have a similar average but would be a bit less random.

As for Interceptors, why not make them move as Jump Infantry normally instead of their weird teleport shunt thing?

For cool units that tend to under-perform in other Codexes:

Eldar: Restrict Rangers to 5-man squads, but let them choose their target after the manner of the Vindicare Assassin. The squad as a whole can fire either at the enemy squad, or at one specific model. This adjustment might work for Deathmarks as well, but I don't know the Necron Codex, so I'll leave that up to those who do.

Chaos: Drop Slow and Purposeful off the Chaos Spawn, then give them FNP. It'd justify the cost significantly better than their current setup...

Orks need better ranged anti-tank to be competitive; maybe give Tankbustaz the option to upgrade to twin-linked rokkit launchaz at +2pts?

I run Vespid, they seemed okay on paper and I love the way they look. Haha but to each his own right?

Deathmarks do not need tweaking. I find them to be fairly effective as is.
Now flayed ones on the other hand...

redcapscorner wrote:
Tau: Stealthsuits
Grey Knights: Interceptors
Blood Angels: Sanguinary Guard
Necrons: Deathmarks

None of those things are underpowered. That you think so colors my opinion of your ability to make reasonable changes to things.

DarknessEternal wrote:

redcapscorner wrote:
Tau: Stealthsuits
Grey Knights: Interceptors
Blood Angels: Sanguinary Guard
Necrons: Deathmarks

None of those things are underpowered. That you think so colors my opinion of your ability to make reasonable changes to things.

I have to agree with Darkness here.. None of the units you chose are truly underpowered, interceptors are good, especially when partnered with Grand Strategy. Sanguinary Guard are cool and ok, not super amazing, but they fit the role they have. Deathmarks can be QUITE good, and the Necron dex is almost all competitive.. I won't even start with Space Wolves, all their units are actually decent, they just don't get taken because of the units which are TOO good. Stealthsuits fit the roll they were designed for, they may be slightly more expensive than necessary, but not truly underpowered. All in all, I believe the units you chose were not the lacking ones from there respective codices.

Dark Eldar:

Void Raven
Large Warrior Squads
Mandrakes
Half the Special Characters, but above all Decapitator.
Blood brides

Guys, I'm not talking about the crappiest unit in each codex. I feel like I've explained what I'm going for here. People usually don't own models for the crappiest unit in each codex. What they DO already own models for are the units that have aspects of good to them, but are highly situational or overcosted. Those aspects of them are "underpowered," and I really don't think anyone who wasn't trying to be difficult could argue that any of the units I picked are competitive choices. I know there ARE lists that make use of sanguinary guard and deathmarks and interceptors, and maybe even stealthsuits occasionally too, but they're quite fringe lists because those are all units that are overpriced or well-used only in very situational match-ups. I guess they're meta-game choices, more than anything else.

Also, if it puts your mind at rest, keep in mind that I'm not going to be the one making the changes to each unit. I'm just helping identify which units get changed, and I thought this might be a fun thought experiment. Thanks to those of you who have been helpful and made suggestions so far, rather than resorting to bickering over the few units I singled out to get the ball rolling.


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Also, I wasn't married to my choice of interceptors for grey knights, but just about everything in that codex is plenty good enough. Interceptors are absolutely one of the most under-run units in the book, within reason. I mean, I realize that henchmen warbands aren't super highly utilized either, but there're so many different types of henchman you can include in one of those, it's just not a good choice for this project.

Tau Ethereals get my vote. I love my old Aun'shi model but rarely use him in competitive games. Maybe I don't use him correctly or to his full potential but I love the fluff on the Ethereals and would like see some kind of buff to make them a more viable HQ choice.

Ogryns for IG definitely. They're cool, but a CC unit with INT 2?

moom241 wrote:Ogryns for IG definitely. They're cool, but a CC unit with INT 2?

Lychguard, Wraiths, Scarabs and every single ork would like a word with you.

Sword Brethren are pretty much the only situational unit for Black Templars. I'm the only one I know that actually use them. They could use that extra attack that all other Veterans get for free without having to pay 10 points though.

I'm sure they would, but they can actually do something once they get into CC. Ogryns don't have Warscythes, 3+ armor and invuln saves, or are cheap enough to field en mass and be part of an effective.

Penal Legion is another.

moom241 wrote:I'm sure they would, but they can actually do something once they get into CC. Ogryns don't have Warscythes, 3+ armor and invuln saves, or are cheap enough to field en mass and be part of an effective.

I've put serious beat downs on a range of armies with Ogryns, especially with a Lord Commissar leading them. Their guns aren't necessarily the greatest; however they are the only unit in the codex that has a "shoot first, clean up the rest in assault vibe" other than maybe Rough Riders... actually... (lightbulb)

Rough Riders would be a good choice for the purpose of this conversation. An easy solution to fixing them would just to have the hunting lances apply to every charge. I don't think they'd be terribly OP with that fix as they hit on 4s against more or less everyone and wound on 5s against MEQ. After all, if GK purifiers can get halberds for 2ppm, why can't the guard get a little love?

Tyranids:

Lictors, Pyrovores, Harpies, Carnifexes, Warriors/Shrikes...

*double post* sorry

You could give flayed ones Fleet... but that would make them insanely good. Might make more sense to take a unit like lychguard and give it an ability it should already have, like counter attack.

Interceptors are awesome, don't mess with them; if you really feel the need to tweak a model in the GK codex, pick the Culexis or calidus assassin.

For stealth suits - give them access to rail rifles, no need for new mechanics, just new options.

Tyranids: You want to make lictors awesome? give them the ability to assault on the turn they arrive.

bforber wrote:
Rough Riders would be a good choice for the purpose of this conversation. An easy solution to fixing them would just to have the hunting lances apply to every charge. I don't think they'd be terribly OP with that fix as they hit on 4s against more or less everyone and wound on 5s against MEQ. After all, if GK purifiers can get halberds for 2ppm, why can't the guard get a little love?

Because the Guard is hogging the Long-Range Firepower love for themselves?

Ogryns need a point drop, maybe 35 points per model.
I'd like to see stormtroopers fulfil an elite shooting role (which the guard doesn't have) somewhat like sternguard but obviously nowhere near as powerful.
Increase hot-shot lasgun range to 24" and make it S4. Then it can wound MEQs on 4s, but they'll still get a cover save so eh.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

bforber wrote:
Rough Riders would be a good choice for the purpose of this conversation. An easy solution to fixing them would just to have the hunting lances apply to every charge. I don't think they'd be terribly OP with that fix as they hit on 4s against more or less everyone and wound on 5s against MEQ. After all, if GK purifiers can get halberds for 2ppm, why can't the guard get a little love?

Because the Guard is hogging the Long-Range Firepower love for themselves?

Not every one wants to play parking lot/static HWT gunline every single game. lol

Well yeah, HWTs are rubbish. Unless you enjoy taking Ld 6 saving throws.

bforber wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

bforber wrote:
Rough Riders would be a good choice for the purpose of this conversation. An easy solution to fixing them would just to have the hunting lances apply to every charge. I don't think they'd be terribly OP with that fix as they hit on 4s against more or less everyone and wound on 5s against MEQ. After all, if GK purifiers can get halberds for 2ppm, why can't the guard get a little love?

Because the Guard is hogging the Long-Range Firepower love for themselves?

Not every one wants to play parking lot/static HWT gunline every single game. lol

I didn't say everyone did. What you're asking for, however, is giving the premier shooting army a cavalry unit that gets S5 I5 power weapon attacks. Now do you see why I think it's a bad idea?

Joey wrote:Ogryns need a point drop, maybe 35 points per model.
I'd like to see stormtroopers fulfil an elite shooting role (which the guard doesn't have) somewhat like sternguard but obviously nowhere near as powerful.
Increase hot-shot lasgun range to 24" and make it S4. Then it can wound MEQs on 4s, but they'll still get a cover save so eh.

hmm

Ogryns are 5 points more than Grotesques, dont need an IC leading them, are stubborn, have FC standard, have a higher Ld, better armor, grenades(seriously I2 why) and their famous ripper guns.
Grotesques have higher Inititive, Power From Pain and Night vision. Their sarge can take some options and they can get a flamer.

Orgryns might be overcosted but I think they are in line with Grots mainly because they dont need an IC leading them and guns aren't bad.

Joey wrote:Well yeah, HWTs are rubbish. Unless you enjoy taking Ld 6 saving throws.

With the right deployment, Aura of Discipline fixes that.


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bforber wrote:

Joey wrote:Well yeah, HWTs are rubbish. Unless you enjoy taking Ld 6 saving throws.

With the right deployment, Aura of Discipline fixes that.

I didn't say everyone did. What you're asking for, however, is giving the premier shooting army a cavalry unit that gets S5 I5 power weapon attacks. Now do you see why I think it's a bad idea?

So, I looked at Army Builder and just remembered that RRs are only 55 points for 5. I'll concede the point, though I feel like they are slightly underwhelming as a unit.

bforber wrote:
So, I looked at Army Builder and just remembered that RRs are only 55 points for 5. I'll concede the point, though I feel like they are slightly underwhelming as a unit.

That's how I feel when I look at these guys. They have one good charge, sure, but they're also very easy to kill (most assault units are pretty tough) and after that charge they're just non-scoring guardsmen.
They suffer from being a melee unit in a shooty army.