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The Dark Eldar are safe in the Webway for as long as it entertains Tzeentch to allow them to believe that they are. Once he decides to change things up, all it's going to take is a bit of a tentacle-elbow nudge to some Sorcerer somewhere, a wink and a "Hey, buddy, here's how you do this..."

... right in the face of an Imperial Liberation Crusade, that leads the Imperium to purging a Chaos-held world shortly after the first Man-operable webway gate is constructed, and then, suddenly, the IoM has a stable entry into the WebWay (much like the Jericho-Maw station) that leads almost directly to Commorragh.

Why? Because Tzeentch is kinda a dick like that.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Why do people rate chaos higher then the IoM. Theyve only had.13 failed crusades, lead by Failbadon. Seems fairly safe that the IoM is stronger then chaos. Of course current fluff make both chaos and nids into jokes.

Bolded the main reason for you...but keep in mind other crusades and warbands outside of the Eye of Terror. If we're looking at just the mortal Chaos forces, I would point towards such events like Scound's Fall, The Shadowhive/Fall of Bastonbeil, and the Dominion of Fire, which lasted for a total of four and a half centuries and burned 36 star systems and a furthermore 70 sectors. They also control 3 (not sure on the exact number, might be 2) Blackstone Fortresses, and then there's the power of Daemons...a Daemon incursion can easily wipe out a world. Even so, I think I'd agree that the Imperium is more powerful...upon discussion, I've decided to change my personal list to this:

1. Orks
2. Tyranids
3. Imperium
4. Necrons
5. Chaos
6. Eldar
7. Dark Eldar
8. Tau Empire

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Why do people rate chaos higher then the IoM. Theyve only had.13 failed crusades, lead by Failbadon. Seems fairly safe that the IoM is stronger then chaos. Of course current fluff make both chaos and nids into jokes.

It is logical for Chaos to be the ultimate power in Warp realm, and that is why it is high in the list. Daemons are very powerful as their "gods", but inability to survive in material realm for long didn't make them the most powerful.

Psienesis wrote:The Dark Eldar are safe in the Webway for as long as it entertains Tzeentch to allow them to believe that they are. Once he decides to change things up, all it's going to take is a bit of a tentacle-elbow nudge to some Sorcerer somewhere, a wink and a "Hey, buddy, here's how you do this..."

... right in the face of an Imperial Liberation Crusade, that leads the Imperium to purging a Chaos-held world shortly after the first Man-operable webway gate is constructed, and then, suddenly, the IoM has a stable entry into the WebWay (much like the Jericho-Maw station) that leads almost directly to Commorragh.

Why? Because Tzeentch is kinda a dick like that.

Which is why Chaos are above Dark Eldar

Im sorry but necrons should be on top. I mean we overthrew our own gods and enslaved the. Yes the fluff says that were spread out but it also says there is no clue on how many crypt worlds there are and what powers lye dormant there. The technology is far beyond every race (in my opinion). I mean wraiths that can pop in and out of trans-dimensional rifts and kill and pop back in? I mean they could really enter reality inside of you! painful end in my opinion. Flush the flayed ones themselves could be countless due to the disease and they just flock to wherever they can find meat. i just see them so far above the orcs.

I am going to have to out Orks, Necrons and Nids at the top as well



1. Necrons have access to portable doomsday weapons, weapons that drive you mad (doomscythe engines, that type of harbinger that I forgot the name of, ect), and they are really, really, hard to kill. Granted, they don't really have anyway of replacing their numbers (unless, of course, you take into account the odd necron tombworld that doesn't aim to turn themselves organic, but due to the rarity of such worlds, they are hardly an influence), but again, the fact that they can repair nearly any damage counters this disadvantage.

2. Orks are, well, Orks. There are a lot of them, they can generate a powerful gestalt psychic that can warp reality into making the impossible happen, and they are a real pain to eradicate completely

3. Tyranids eats entire worlds on a regular basis, and have a nearly 100% success rate. And even if they do fail, the target world is usually severely crippled.

Well numero Uno is the Nids. They have invisible stalkers (the Lictors), and almost undetectable cults (Genestealers). Also they devour planets at an impossible rate and only the Crons scare them.

Numero dos is likely IOM. They might be dying, but for me it seems more like Chaos needs them to survive, if not then Chaos really isn't a very big threat.

3. The Orks, perfect weapons against the Nids. They ferret out the Genestealers fast.

4. The Crons. Anti-Nid-race nuff said. The Nids avoids them.

5. Chaos. Needs the IOM to survive, if not, then all left are just Daemons.

6. The Eldar, marvelous technology, but they are fading.

7. The Dark Eldar, too bad they are busy being depraved.

As for the Tau, they suck balls, so they can go and hang themselves for all I care.

My problem with Necrons at the top is this. The majority of the Imperium is ignorant to their existence, and they aren't acknowledged as a credible threat currently aside from the odd vengeful Space Marine chapter. If they ever got into a large sustained conflict with the Imperium, an actual war, I have no doubt the Imperium would win. They have much more manpower, more resources, better star ships, and Exterminatus. They can deploy regiment upon regiment of tanks, artillery, and infantry. If the Imperium actually diverted forces against the Necrons, they would mostly likely win out. Also, keep in mind that when the Necrons attack you don't need to kill them beyond repair, just make them phase back to the Tomb World for repair, which is much easier than destroying them outright. And even so, I'm sure a few Earthshaker or battlecannon rounds would cause severe damage to a necron.

DarkCorsair wrote:My problem with Necrons at the top is this. The majority of the Imperium is ignorant to their existence, and they aren't acknowledged as a credible threat currently aside from the odd vengeful Space Marine chapter. If they ever got into a large sustained conflict with the Imperium, an actual war, I have no doubt the Imperium would win. They have much more manpower, more resources, better star ships, and Exterminatus. They can deploy regiment upon regiment of tanks, artillery, and infantry. If the Imperium actually diverted forces against the Necrons, they would mostly likely win out. Also, keep in mind that when the Necrons attack you don't need to kill them beyond repair, just make them phase back to the Tomb World for repair, which is much easier than destroying them outright. And even so, I'm sure a few Earthshaker or battlecannon rounds would cause severe damage to a necron.

I can only think that you must not know Necron fluff at all.

Firstly, I know 40k fluff doesn't move forwards very often, but it HAS advanced recently. The Necrons are largely awake and challenging the Imperium on most fronts, and have already destroyed dozens of hive worlds and hundreds of lesser worlds. They are currently involved in many active wars against the Imperium, and the Imperium knows this. They are no longer a hidden threat.

Second the Imperium has "a million worlds", the Necrons have "millions of Tomb Worlds". They really don't out manpower, or out resource them.

And where in the world did you get the idea that the Imperium had batter starships? The Necrons have been the top dogs in space combat since Battlefleet Gothic. No one can currently seriously challenge the Necrons in space. Exterminatus isn't very impressive either. The Necrons have tech to wipe out star systems literally at the wave of a hand (the galactic orery being necron tech). They have plenty of methods for destroying worlds.

Not sure what is so impressive about their ability to deploy regimens. Congradulations, they can wage war. So can the Necrons. So can everyone. Of course, when a guard regimen dies, it's dead and gone. When you defeat a necron legion you just end up fighting it again later.

Now somehow you have come to the conclusion that the Necrons ability to heal from fatal wounds and instantly retreat from bad situations via phase out is...a weakness? You know they can no longer be 'forced' to phase out, right? So they can take an order of more magnitude damage than their opponents before going down, heal and get back up most of the time, and if things go bad they can teleport out rather than taking casualties. And this is a weakness.

No, obviously your right. I would much rather lose my troops permanently to death and loose huge numbers of troops in retreat actions.

And I don't know what earthshaker rounds and battle canons have to do with anything. No one disputes that the Necrons have the most powerful guns, there isn't even a comparison there.

riplikash wrote:


And where in the world did you get the idea that the Imperium had batter starships? The Necrons have been the top dogs in space combat since Battlefleet Gothic. No one can currently seriously challenge the Necrons in space. Exterminatus isn't very impressive either. The Necrons have tech to wipe out star systems literally at the wave of a hand (the galactic orery being necron tech). They have plenty of methods for destroying worlds.

Actually, that kinda has been retconned, since Helbretch's (BT chapter master guy) flagship managed to outgun the stormlord's flagship. No idea how that happened :/

It was a Black Templar fleet vs. the single Tombship. I think this only shows how powerful the Necron starship is if it takes so much to be able to win

Azure wrote:It was a Black Templar fleet vs. the single Tombship. I think this only shows how powerful the Necron starship is if it takes so much to be able to win

Oh really? I read it as a necron fleet vs a BT fleet, and the BT flagship downing Imotech's flagship.
It was a long time since I read it though

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Actually, that kinda has been retconned, since Helbretch's (BT chapter master guy) flagship managed to outgun the stormlord's flagship. No idea how that happened :/

Let me quote the line from the codex for you. Bold added for emphasis:
"The Stormlord's Tomb Ship Inevitable Conquerer comes uner attack by a Black Templars fleet whilst en route to the Sautekh coreworld Davatas."

So we don't know the circumstances of the battle, where it was attacked, what tactics were used. All we know is a ship came under attack by a fleet and lost.

I don't know how people get "battle barges can beat Necron capital ships" out of that.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Azure wrote:It was a Black Templar fleet vs. the single Tombship. I think this only shows how powerful the Necron starship is if it takes so much to be able to win

Oh really? I read it as a necron fleet vs a BT fleet, and the BT flagship downing Imotech's flagship.
It was a long time since I read it though

I myself just re-read to make sure

Well, thanks for the clarification. I was a bit confused there.

riplikash wrote:
Let me quote the line from the codex for you. Bold added for emphasis:
"The Stormlord's Tomb Ship Inevitable Conquerer comes uner attack by a Black Templars fleet whilst en route to the Sautekh coreworld Davatas."

So we don't know the circumstances of the battle, where it was attacked, what tactics were used. All we know is a ship came under attack by a fleet and lost.

I don't know how people get "battle barges can beat Necron capital ships" out of that.

If you quoted the rest of the text it would say that Stormlord's ship had fleet to escort him and that only one Battle Barge engaged Imotech's ship. After that the rest of the Black Tempalr fleet finish off every necron ship that failed to escape.
Of course if you are saying that Necron fleet ignored Black Templar fleet attacking Imptech's ship...

Coa does have a point. The end does say he jumped to an escort and that the other ships were destroyed if they were to slow to flee

Brother Coa wrote:

riplikash wrote:
Let me quote the line from the codex for you. Bold added for emphasis:
"The Stormlord's Tomb Ship Inevitable Conquerer comes uner attack by a Black Templars fleet whilst en route to the Sautekh coreworld Davatas."

So we don't know the circumstances of the battle, where it was attacked, what tactics were used. All we know is a ship came under attack by a fleet and lost.

I don't know how people get "battle barges can beat Necron capital ships" out of that.

If you quoted the rest of the text it would say that Stormlord's ship had fleet to escort him and that only one Battle Barge engaged Imotech's ship. After that the rest of the Black Tempalr fleet finish off every necron ship that failed to escape.
Of course if you are saying that Necron fleet ignored Black Templar fleet attacking Imptech's ship...

I'll check the full quote. And I would like to note, I never said the Necrons didn't have a fleet, that was someone else. I just pointing out it wasn't a 1 on 1 fight between a Battle Barge and a Necron flag ship.

"The Stormlord's Tomb Ship Inevitable Conquerer comes uner attack by a Black Templars fleet whilst en route to the Sautekh coreworld Davatas. The architect of the assault is none other than Marshal Helbrecht, come searching for a long atnicipated revenge upon the warlord who humbled him on Schrodinger VII. A broadside from the battle barge Sigismund strips away the Conqueror's shields an instant before the Black Templars' boarding torpedoes strike home and, within moments, the decks of the Inevitable Conqueror are swarming with vengeful Space Marines. Pride compels Imotekh to stand and fight, but his forces are in disarray and so logic wins out, dictating a withdrawal. The Stormlord teleports to an escort vessel and makes his escape"

Not seeing where it says 'only one battle barge engaged Imotech's ship'. I see where a broadside from the battle barge was responsible for breaking through the shields, but it doesn't give any indication it was the first shot fired, or how many ships were involved. It just cuts to the action: a broadside brings down the shields just before the bording torpedoes strike.

Nothing here conflicts with any of the pre-established fluff about the Necrons space superiority. No one ever claimed they had never lost a battle. And I never claimed that the Necrons didn't have a fleet, I was just pointing out it wasn't a 1 on 1 confrontation. The Black Templars fleet ambushed Imotekh, and he lost. That doesn't give us any indication of the strengths of Necron ships one way or the other.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Coa does have a point. The end does say he jumped to an escort and that the other ships were destroyed if they were to slow to flee

I just found my codex, and it does indeed say there were other ships. However, this does not necessarily mean a necron fleet. The stormlord was en route to his tomb world after all, and since Helbretch flew a necron starship into their sun (which I imagine would have some disasterous consequences), it is likely that these ships may have been fleeing from the tombworld.
Of course, it is difficult to tell. Ward isn't the most talented of writers.

I really don't know that this is an example of bad writing, and Ward didn't write it anyways. This bit of fluff wasn't about comparing naval power, it was just about the Necrons losing a fight (which in my oppinion is better writing than having every bit of fluff the codex be a win). It ties in nicely to previously written pieces in the codex.

The respective size of their fleets is meaningless in this story, and was rightfully left out.

Space fight happened, Imotekh lost, but was cool enough to retreat instead of fight to the end, showing he isn't perfect, but he isn't a mustache twirling fool either, and further building up a rivalry with the Black Templars. A well written piece of fluff in my opinion.

Yeah the teleports to another escort is vague. I took it to mean his flagships escort but it could be something else.

A Tombship is always escorted by 3 Scythe-class ships, so he probably just teleported to one of those

IMO, the IoM wins hands down. Simply because the aquila is flying above 3/4th of the galaxy.

The IoM is continuously facing the greatest threats and horrors of the galaxy (Hive-fleets, waaaghs, black crusades), all at the same time, and is regularly winning (albeit at great costs).

In its history, the IoM defeated 12 black crusades, 2 major hive-fleets, innumerable ork waaaaghs, destroyed a few craftworlds, crushed untold thousands of independant xenos or heretical empires and quashed uncountable numbers of rebellions against its rule (some of them as grave as Vandire's Reign of Blood).

It is the only faction that was ever able to raid Commoragh.

In its recent history, during the closing years of M41, the IoM faced the greatest ork Waaagh ever seen, Abbadon's latest and greatest Black Crusade and the largest Hive Fleet yet encountered, all of this at the same time and on three separate fronts, and either won or managed to reach a stalemate in all three conflicts (Abbadon is trapped on Cadia, Ghazzy is on the run and Hive Fleet leviathan's advance has slowed to a crawl).

The IoM has been the dominant power of the galaxy for 10 000 years and is the largest political entity ever seen since the Old Ones' empire (even the Eldars or the Necrons never ruled over so many star systems at the height of their power).


I could go on like this for days.

You are just wrong on so many points. And I'm a IoM fanboy.

Laodamia wrote:The IoM is continuously facing the greatest threats and horrors of the galaxy (Hive-fleets, waaaghs, black crusades), all at the same time, and is regularly winning (albeit at great costs).

So has every faction. Every faction has its history, heroes, triumphs and villiants. The IoM is just the focus of the stories we get.

It is the only faction that was ever able to raid Commoragh.

Firstly, that is a gross exaggeration. Secondly, you have no way of knowing if they are the 'only' faction to ever raid Commoragh.

In its recent history, during the closing years of M41, the IoM faced the greatest ork Waaagh ever seen,

No, just the greatest they have ever faced head on. They know of larger ones that have happened outside of Imperial space, and it can be theorized even larger ones have happened they don't know about over the past 60 million years.

Abbadon's latest and greatest Black Crusade and the largest Hive Fleet yet encountered, all of this at the same time and on three separate fronts, and either won or managed to reach a stalemate in all three conflicts (Abbadon is trapped on Cadia, Ghazzy is on the run and Hive Fleet leviathan's advance has slowed to a crawl).

The Black Crusades are the equivalents of civil wars, that really isn't impressive. And we only know about the hive fleets the Imperium has faced. Any that have been stopped by other races we haven't heard of.

The IoM has been the dominant power of the galaxy for 10 000 years

And the Eldar for 60 million before that, and the Old Ones and Necrontyr a for a billion before that.

and is the largest political entity ever seen since the Old Ones' empire (even the Eldars or the Necrons never ruled over so many star systems at the height of their power).

Yes, they did. The Eldar have touched far more worlds than the Imperium, though they tend to be more subtle about it, and the Necrons had millions of worlds at their height, compared to the Imperiums 'million' worlds.

I could go on like this for days.

Listing off achievements only impressive to the Imperium itself and spouting one sided, inaccurate propaganda. For days? Oh joy.

riplikash wrote:
Firstly, that is a gross exaggeration. Secondly, you have no way of knowing if they are the 'only' faction to ever raid Commoragh.

True, I'll grant you that the raid was staged by Asdrubael.
But it's written in the fluff that it was the first time an enemy penetrated Commoragh (don't make me get out the line in the DE codex).

In its recent history, during the closing years of M41, the IoM faced the greatest ork Waaagh ever seen,

No, just the greatest they have ever faced head on.

Once more, it's written in the fluff.

The Black Crusades are the equivalents of civil wars.

Really? Fine by me it just means that Chaos is nothing more than a "minor threat" then, since the best they can do is some pesky civil trouble.

And we only know about the hive fleets the Imperium has faced. Any that have been stopped by other races we haven't heard of.

Once, more, it's written in the fluff that Leviathan is (so far) the largest hive fleet that has entered the galaxy. Other, smaller hive fleets were encountered by other races (the tau defeated Gorgon, for example).

The IoM has been the dominant power of the galaxy for 10 000 years

And the Eldar for 60 million before that, and the Old Ones and Necrontyr a for a billion before that.

I invite you to read a timeline of the 40K universe. The Necron empire didn't rule for "a billion years" nor did the Eldar empire last "60 million years".

In addition, the Eldar empire mostly encompassed the stars that are now part of the EoT (exodite worlds are rare), which is a relatively limited part of the galaxy.

And we can see in M41, from the number and the frequency at which necron tomb worlds awaken, that only a minority of worlds in the galaxy were colonized by the necrontyrs.


In a sidenote, you seem to take your fun by pointlessly trying to take each of my arguments separately and then by contradicting them. IMHO, it appears you are simply interested in arguing with me and asserting your authority over a fellow dakkanaut than contributing to the debate... and that is sad.

Laodamia wrote:

Really? Fine by me it just means that Chaos is nothing more than a "minor threat" then, since the best they can do is some pesky civil trouble.

a "minor threat"

a "minor threat"

a "minor threat"

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

Really? Fine by me it just means that Chaos is nothing more than a "minor threat" then, since the best they can do is some pesky civil trouble.

a "minor threat"

a "minor threat"

a "minor threat"

Exactly what I meant
With less facepalms.

riplikash wrote:

Laodamia wrote:Abbadon's latest and greatest Black Crusade and the largest Hive Fleet yet encountered, all of this at the same time and on three separate fronts, and either won or managed to reach a stalemate in all three conflicts (Abbadon is trapped on Cadia, Ghazzy is on the run and Hive Fleet leviathan's advance has slowed to a crawl).

The Black Crusades are the equivalents of civil wars, that really isn't impressive. And we only know about the hive fleets the Imperium has faced. Any that have been stopped by other races we haven't heard of.

I agree on all your other points riplikash, but I have to argue that shrugging this off is grossly misidentifying its significance. The idea was that all these things happening at the same time displays the raw power imperium has as well as its potential for mobalising massive retaliation armies. The way I look at it is this: Germany during world war two had the ability, in my personal opinion to defeat soviet russia, france, britian, and every other european country. The problem was timing. If they engaged at different times, rather than attacking at the same time, this conquest could have been possible, if not probable.

Now switch to the Imperium against its enemies. Replace germany with the Imperium. The fact that they can stop everything even with their forces being fractioned is a testament to their power. Now imagine that they had a large majority of their forces attacking one region. They come out on top most times as described in fluff. See: Macharian Crusade and Great Crusade.

Ok, Chaos is NOT a minor threat. I am fairly certain it says several times that Chaos is the IoM no. 1 enemy. If they weren't why do you think an ENTIRE ORGANIZATION has been formed to counteract its influence? Why do you think that they are so bloody paranoid about "heresy"? Because the IoM fears chaos. They fear chaos because chaos is a major threat.

Oh, and don't underestimate the power of civil wars. Do you know how the Roman fell? Because of the mass civil wars, which weakened the empire to the point that it couldn't protect itself against outside threats. You know the Roman Empire, right? The LARGEST Empire in the world, renowned for its military prowess?

I am sorry if I come off as a bit harsh, but I have a strong aversion to fan-boy levels of ignorance.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Ok, Chaos is NOT a minor threat. I am fairly certain it says several times that Chaos is the IoM no. 1 enemy. If they weren't why do you think an ENTIRE ORGANIZATION has been formed to counteract its influence? Why do you think that they are so bloody paranoid about "heresy"? Because the IoM fears chaos. They fear chaos because chaos is a major threat.

Oh, and don't underestimate the power of civil wars. Do you know how the Roman fell? Because of the mass civil wars, which weakened the empire to the point that it couldn't protect itself against outside threats. You know the Roman Empire, right? The LARGEST Empire in the world, renowned for its military prowess?

I am sorry if I come off as a bit harsh, but I have a strong aversion to fan-boy levels of ignorance.

I know it's late in France when you wrote your post (I'm going to bed, for instance), but take the time to read my post again.

Tip: I was being ironic. Chaos is not a minor threat to the IoM.

But yeah, apart from that, I perfectly agree with you, my good sir.