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Edit: Upon discussion, I've decided to change my personal list to what is below. However. the original post is still there for those interested.

1. Orks
2. Tyranids
3. Imperium
4. Necrons
5. Chaos
6. Eldar
7. Dark Eldar
8. Tau Empire

Original post:

1. Orks. This is mainly because of the manner in which they reproduce: you kill an ork, spores are released, and in a month or two there's a dozen more orks. They have fairly good technology as far as travel and combat goes. Also, an almost dead ork can just be stitched back together. They're ranked above Tyranids because Tyranids are nothing without their hive mind, and if the orks united they could easily take them on. Also can't be tainted by chaos.

2. Tyranids, should be fairly obvious, devour everything in their path and have massive numbers. However if the Hive Mind is killed, they go bye bye, so they're ranked below Orks.

3. Chaos, they have unlimited numbers since Daemons never die, they can taint almost any race, only reason they are #3 is because if Tyranids swallow the galaxy (pretty likely) emotion and thus the Warp will cease to exist. Also, Abbadon currently holds the Blackstone Fortresses...

4. Dark Eldar, they can hide in the web way as long as they don't accidentally leave a portal open like that Space Marine incident. They can literally grow new Dark Eldar, and certainly have the numbers and technology.

5. The Imperium, massive manpower, goodish technology, can blow up planets from orbit, their people have a strong faith, can easily gather resources, etc. They don't seem to be expanding any time soon though.

6. Tau...well, they look like they'll be wiped off the face of the galaxy soon by Tyranids, but they've got a decentish military I guess.

7. Eldar - they can see the future, go zoom zoom in their craftworlds, but lack a major military force. Any questions?

8. Necrons - dead last because they have no means of making more Necrons, so once they're gone they're gone. The new codex fluff also makes it very unlikely they will ever unite, and their power level really dropped.

So! That's it for the list. Agree? Disagree?

8) Eldar- very few left.
7) Tau- ridiculously small empire.
6) Dark Eldar- powerful, but limited. No real way of expanding.
5/4) Imperium/ Chaos. Both are incredibly powerful, but if the latter wipes out the former, then both will die out.
3) Necrons- Almost indestructible; stand up well against Tyranids.
2) Orks, for the reasons the OP mentioned.
1) Tyranids- OH GOD TYRANIDS WHAR

I would not rank the DEldar above the IOM, simply because there are just so many more humans, and the DEldar aren't relatively powerful. Another question, why would destroying chaos kill the Imperium? I know why the inverse is true.

I made a typo.

I disagree fairly strongly, and feel you are being fairly inconsistant with your reasoning.

For #1 I would tie it between Orks (obvious), 'nids (obvious), and crons. I STRONGLY disagree with your assessment of the crons. While they are doomed in the long run, as things currently stand they are a power house. Individual Necrons are much more difficult to take down than a normal human, repair the VAST majority of the time, and they seem to win the vast majority of battles they take part in. And they vastly outnumber the Imperium ('millions' of tomb worlds as opposed to a 'million' imperial worlds). I don't know that the fact that they will die out in 100 million years (conjecture based off the fact that casualty rates over the past 60 million years are indicated to be very high, and they didn't significantly harm the Necrons as a faction) makes them any less of a threat NOW.

And the new fluff actually makes a point of the fact that, while they do occasionally fight one another, they spend the vast majority of the time fighting other races, and are always willing to drop personal quarrels when it comes to ganging up on other races. Not only do they state this right out, they provide numerous examples in the codex of Necrons working together.

But if we are going to say being fragmented makes them not a threat, how can you keep the Orks as a top tier threat? Not only are they more fragmented than the Necrons, they will often further fragment mid battle.

Double standards I say. If we are rating them as a whole faction, as they currently stand the Necrons are the best equipped, toughest, smartest, and one of (but not THE) most numerous races. If we are rating them as factions than the Orks have to be put near the bottom of the list.

So, against, first place is a tie because we don't know which of the top three factions could really overcome the others, we just don't have enough info.

2) tie between DE and the Imperium. The Imperium likely wins out on population and production capacity, and I doubt the DE could seriously challenge them. The DE are still a power house in those reguards and make up for any deficiencies in tech. But they don't win solely based on their 'hidden' tech, because the upper eschelons of the Ad-Mech seem to be hiding some pretty impressive stuff.

3) Chaos. I'm tired of hearing the "unlimited demons" argument. Realistically, in the materium, they cannot deploy unlimited demons. While their theoretical power is unlimited, their real world ability to project power is severely restricted. And as a parasite faction I don't know that I can see them overpowering the factions they live off of.

4) Craftworld Eldar. I'm not sure how you could put the Tau above the Eldar. Even as a 'dying' race they vastly outnumber the Tau. Their tech far outsrips the tau. Their psychic mastery far outstrips the Tau. Obviously they don't have the population to challenge the Imperium, but when you have all those strengths AND outnumber the Tau, I don't know that there is a comparison here.

5) Tau. They were always meant to be the weakest. Quickly growing, great tech distribution, new and interesting ideas, but they fall behind every other faction in every category. Even orks, at their height, can out tech them (though on average their tech is far inferior). They weren't meant to be a power house, they were meant to be a plucky, optomistic underdog, and I love them for it.

moom241 wrote:I would rank the DEldar above the IOM, simply because there are just so many more humans, and the DEldar aren't relatively powerful. Another question, why would destroying chaos kill the Imperium? I know why the inverse is true.

Well, Chaos destroying the Imperium wouldn't kill Chaos either...the Warp is a realm of emotions, and has existed pre-humans. It would still exist due to Eldar, DEldar, Tau, and fringe xenos races like the Barghesi. It would only die if Tyranids ate everything.

Exist, but be severely weakened. While the warp has, and will always exist, that doesn't mean chaos has and will always exist (ignoring the non-linear time issues involved). The warp was around before chaos, and will be around after. Humanity is definitely the staple.

Chaos doesn't just require sentient life having emotions, but uncontrolled, warp sensitive sentient life having emotions. Humans are rather special in this reguard. An emerging psyker race, uncontrolled and with few defenses, and spread across the entire galaxy.

Chaos would certainly survive the death of humanity, but in a much diminished form.

DarkCorsair wrote:

moom241 wrote:I would rank the DEldar above the IOM, simply because there are just so many more humans, and the DEldar aren't relatively powerful. Another question, why would destroying chaos kill the Imperium? I know why the inverse is true.

Well, Chaos destroying the Imperium wouldn't kill Chaos either...the Warp is a realm of emotions, and has existed pre-humans. It would still exist due to Eldar, DEldar, Tau, and fringe xenos races like the Barghesi. It would only die if Tyranids ate everything.

And of course, Chaos has no intention of killing all of the humans currently in the Imperium anyway. That was Horus' planned role. Chaos just wants them all worshipping it.

Just to toss this in about the Necrons

riplikash wrote:I disagree fairly strongly, and feel you are being fairly inconsistant with your reasoning.

For #1 I would tie it between Orks (obvious), 'nids (obvious), and crons. I STRONGLY disagree with your assessment of the crons. While they are doomed in the long run, as things currently stand they are a power house. Individual Necrons are much more difficult to take down than a normal human, repair the VAST majority of the time, and they seem to win the vast majority of battles they take part in. And they vastly outnumber the Imperium ('millions' of tomb worlds as opposed to a 'million' imperial worlds). I don't know that the fact that they will die out in 100 million years (conjecture based off the fact that casualty rates over the past 60 million years are indicated to be very high, and they didn't significantly harm the Necrons as a faction) makes them any less of a threat NOW.

There are only billions of Necrons left, which isn't a whole lot in the galaxy (a single Imperial world can contain several trillion humans). Eventually, all the Necrons will be dead. I'm not talking about just right now, I'm talking as in if the story line progressed then who would be the most powerful. Even if the Necrons didn't die, they would all eventually be consumed by the Flayer virus. I think you are also overestimating how tough Necrons are; if they die, they have a 1/3rd chance to repair themself, and then either teleport away or burn up.

riplikash wrote:And the new fluff actually makes a point of the fact that, while they do occasionally fight one another, they spend the vast majority of the time fighting other races, and are always willing to drop personal quarrels when it comes to ganging up on other races. Not only do they state this right out, they provide numerous examples in the codex of Necrons working together.

Necrons attack world, kill a million orks, those are replaced within a few days. Necrons lose 5 after repairs, those are never replaced. As the Necrons expand their empire, they will get into more and more conflicts, and simply won't have the numbers to sustain it. The reason they are relatively powerful right now is because most are ignorant of them or do not see them as a credible threat. It's also rather hard for them to hold a position on a non-tomb world, because when a Necron is killed and doesn't combat repair or burn up, it phases back to the Tomb World for repair. So even though it didn't die, you still lose some of your fighting force.

riplikash wrote:But if we are going to say being fragmented makes them not a threat, how can you keep the Orks as a top tier threat? Not only are they more fragmented than the Necrons, they will often further fragment mid battle.

I was mainly comparing that to the old fluff...but Orks also have been successfully united on a massive scale, even more so then Imotekh is doing.

riplikash wrote:Double standards I say. If we are rating them as a whole faction, as they currently stand the Necrons are the best equipped, toughest, smartest, and one of (but not THE) most numerous races. If we are rating them as factions than the Orks have to be put near the bottom of the list.

Billions is certainly not very numerous in the galaxy...that's less than almost every race, except for Eldar. Also I argue against smartest...only their leaders are really capable of thought, and even then many are crazy or corrupted.

riplikash wrote:2) tie between DE and the Imperium. The Imperium likely wins out on population and production capacity, and I doubt the DE could seriously challenge them. The DE are still a power house in those reguards and make up for any deficiencies in tech. But they don't win solely based on their 'hidden' tech, because the upper eschelons of the Ad-Mech seem to be hiding some pretty impressive stuff.

My point there was that the Dark Eldar can attack and completely avoid retaliation. They could easily decimate worlds, but doing so would mean no more slaves from that world...Dark Eldar are up in the top because it's almost impossible to launch an attack on them.

riplikash wrote:3) Chaos. I'm tired of hearing the "unlimited demons" argument. Realistically, in the materium, they cannot deploy unlimited demons. While their theoretical power is unlimited, their real world ability to project power is severely restricted. And as a parasite faction I don't know that I can see them overpowering the factions they live off of.

Daemon gets killed, Daemon goes back to Warp. There are massive amounts of Daemons in the Warp, well over trillions. They are very hard to kill. Daemons are, essentially, unlimited. You can't launch an assault on the Warp. Daemons win on sheer attrition.

riplikash wrote:4) Craftworld Eldar. I'm not sure how you could put the Tau above the Eldar. Even as a 'dying' race they vastly outnumber the Tau. Their tech far outsrips the tau. Their psychic mastery far outstrips the Tau. Obviously they don't have the population to challenge the Imperium, but when you have all those strengths AND outnumber the Tau, I don't know that there is a comparison here.

Eldar just have no real military force. They attack when it is deemed necessary by the Farseer, and the majority of the force is made up of farmers, artists, etc. Tau come out on top.

riplikash wrote:5) Tau. They were always meant to be the weakest. Quickly growing, great tech distribution, new and interesting ideas, but they fall behind every other faction in every category. Even orks, at their height, can out tech them (though on average their tech is far inferior). They weren't meant to be a power house, they were meant to be a plucky, optomistic underdog, and I love them for it.

They have a much better military force than Eldar IMO though. I guess they should maybe be tied.




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Azure wrote:Just to toss this in about the Necrons

Spoiler:

In Fall of Damnos it mentions that scarabs attack a Leman Russ and, in front of the guardsmens' eyes, create both more warriors and scarabs. So they Can get more, it just requires metal

Eh...I'm iffy about counting Black Library as fluff. That was also written during the old codex, in which I believe new necrons actually could be made (Pariahs I think?).

DarkCorsair wrote:
There are only billions of Necrons left, which isn't a whole lot in the galaxy (a single Imperial world can contain several trillion humans).

I think you are taking a poetic description as a literal one. I know the lines that could lead you to conclude there are only billions left, but I don't think it was meant to be taken as a literal count. We know there are millions of tomb worlds left, but we are supposed to believe there are only billions of necrons? So roughly 1000 Necrons per tomb world? And the fluff indicates any given tomb world would have billions of Necrons.

When one line of slightly poetic fluff contradicts numerous other pieces of fluff, common sense, and most hard numbers, I think it is safe to assume the one line is being figurative. It's like "there is only war" and "1 million Imperial worlds". Those aren't supposed to be technically factual statements, but to get across a feel, an idea, for something not nearly so quantifiable.

According to every bit of fluff we have, besides the silly "from trillions to billions" line, the current Necron population has to be in the quadrillions, as a lower limit.

Eventually, all the Necrons will be dead. I'm not talking about just right now, I'm talking as in if the story line progressed then who would be the most powerful.

This statement is a moving goal post which just allows you to select a time period that is convenient to your argument. All the races will die eventually, and the Necrons, while they will eventually die out, wont necessarily die out any faster than any other group. They easily have 100 million years left in them, longer than humanity has been around. They have every chance of coming out on top of the current scenario and outlasting the other races. We have to focus on who has the best chance of winning the "current" conflict, and in that category the Necrons are right at the top of the list.

Even if the Necrons didn't die, they would all eventually be consumed by the Flayer virus. I think you are also overestimating how tough Necrons are; if they die, they have a 1/3rd chance to repair themself, and then either teleport away or burn up.

We have no indication that all Necrons are doomed to catch the flayer virus, or even the majority. And don't take dice statistics as a fulff description of their repair chances. Grots don't have a 1/32 chance of taking down a space marine chapter master, and in the fluff Necrons are tougher than Space Marines, at least in taking damage, and self repair the vast majority of the time. Even when they don't repair on the battlefield we know they still survive via teleportation the vast majority of time. Most warriors will be able to survive dozens, if not hundreds of 'deaths'.

I was mainly comparing that to the old fluff...but Orks also have been successfully united on a massive scale, even more so then Imotekh is doing.

Yes, they have, which is why you shouldn't discount either group because of their factitious nature. Both of their codexes maek a point that they can and do work together on a vast scale when necessary.

Billions is certainly not very numerous in the galaxy...that's less than almost every race, except for Eldar. Also I argue against smartest...only their leaders are really capable of thought, and even then many are crazy or corrupted.

I already went over why taking the billions line literally doesn't make sense. It's being poetic, not technically factual. They are indicated numerous times to be one of the most numerous races in the galaxy, surpassing even the IoM, falling behind only the Orks and the 'nids.

I agree, only their leaders are intelligent, but even the maddest of them are shown to be brilliant, often beyond what any organic could achieve. They are certainly doomed in the end, but then, every race is.

My point there was that the Dark Eldar can attack and completely avoid retaliation. They could easily decimate worlds, but doing so would mean no more slaves from that world...Dark Eldar are up in the top because it's almost impossible to launch an attack on them.

I don't think you should treat 'difficult to attack' as 'most powerful', or we might as well just say that chaos is the 'most powerful', since the chaos gods are impervious to attack, even though they are severely restricted in their ability to project power.

Usually a title like "ranking armies on power in the fluff" would imply able to defeat eachother in a fight.

Daemon gets killed, Daemon goes back to Warp. There are massive amounts of Daemons in the Warp, well over trillions. They are very hard to kill. Daemons are, essentially, unlimited. You can't launch an assault on the Warp. Daemons win on sheer attrition.

But a warp assault is not on anyones list of priorities, it makes no sense. The demons have nothing to defend, no one else has anything to gain. Yes Chaos is the most powerful when fighting in the warp, but no one wants anything there, its a silly comparison. In the place where fights happen, the materium, chaos is very limited in their ability to project power. They cannot just endlessly spawn demons when fighting in the materium. Who cares about who can win a fight in the warp? Choas every time, congradulations, no one cares, not even chaos.

Eldar just have no real military force. They attack when it is deemed necessary by the Farseer, and the majority of the force is made up of farmers, artists, etc. Tau come out on top.

I don't think you know anything about the Eldar at all, because they really, REALLY do have a dedicated military force, those who have been lost on the path of the warrior. And most Eldar have fought on the path of the warrior. Almost every Craftworld farmer is going to have better training, and better weapons than a fire warrior. The dedicated Eldar warriors are going to cut a bloody swath.

In every bit of fluff but tabletop stats the craftworld eldar are an incredably dangerous foe, even their craftsmen. And they have more dedicated military units than tau has population. I don't see how the tau can come out on top as a faction.

They have a much better military force than Eldar IMO though. I guess they should maybe be tied.

Again, I really think you just don't know much about the Eldar. Better tech, bigger military, better training, everywhere but on the tabletop, where obviously things have to be balanced.

In the end, the Eldar are a major power in the galaxy, rightly respected and feared by every race that knows of them, and have had more impact on the galaxy in the past 10k years than any other faction save the Imperium. Chapters and fleets have been lost in crusades against craftworlds. The Tau are barely known beyond their local space, and not even considered enough of a threat to put down. I don't know how you can put them in the same category.

Eh...I'm iffy about counting Black Library as fluff. That was also written during the old codex, in which I believe new necrons actually could be made (Pariahs I think?).

40k fluff doesn't work that way. Black Library, FF, Codex, they are all 'canon', they can all be wrong (again, see the 'billions of necrons' bit). That is GW's official policy.

Now that doesn't mean it is absolutely true. They can be wrong, or misinterpreted. I certainly get the impression no new crons can be made, though that isn't said outright. So the question of new necrons is kind of up in the air. We know Pariahs have been created. We also know new necron bodies were created. That doesn't necessarily mean new NECRONS were created. We know they have the ability to transfer conciousness, so maybe they just transferred warriors into those bodies.

Though that does cause some issues for the 'declining population due to war' argument, as it does seem possible that upon the destruction of the body they save the conciousness and put it in a new body later. An interesting idea, which does have a fair amount of support in the fluff.

@ripliklash: Thank you. Saved me a lot of time having to type up something similar.

If you are going raw power for each 'empire' (for lack of a better term):

1) Imperium of Man
2) Orks
3) Eldar
4) Chaos
5) Tyranids
6) Necrons
7) Dark Eldar
8) Tau

Note: This is how they weigh in for the current amount of power they have to affect the Galaxy. Current being the 'snapshot' in time that is Warhammer 40,000.

Reasoning:

1) The Imperium spans across the entire Galaxy. Its an Empire in decline, its not actually defeated yet. Its definitely going downhill. But its just got too much military might and the Imperial Cult is binding it all together. They just have the numbers and resources. Also, it could just be because the story is told from the perspective of the IoM, but it seems most of the other races are using their power against the IoM for the most part. So when you're talking about their "power to affect the Galaxy" you typically mean their power to affect the IoM.

2) Orks spread easily and all they live for is war. They aren't united so they aren't top dogs. They fight among themselves as much as with others. At the same time though their aggressive acts affect pretty much all the other major players in the galaxy. You can't really beat them as a species by fighting them directly.

3) Eldar are very few in number but they are the oldest race next to the Necrons (and Tyranids, though Tyranids are new to the Galaxy). They do all kinds of things to manipulate events behind the scenes to suit their own agenda and ensure their survival. As mentioned by others, all other races tread careful around Eldar as they're technology is very powerful and they are very knowledgeable.

4) Chaos is Chaos. They'd be more powerful except that they're a bit anchored as to where their power bases are. Unless they are near some point in space where the Warp meets the Universe (Eye of Terror, Maelstrom), they have limited resources and are more a raiding force than a real force of conquest. Generally speaking they usually only care about the IoM as well, since when we speak Chaos we mean mainly Traitor Guard / CSM. Chaos Daemons as well but again, they have to act through others who are usually human.

5) Tyranids are scary powerful. The only problem is not a lot of them are actually IN the galaxy. They're pretty localized to specific areas. So far they seem to just be probing. I don't think any real incursion has actually happened yet. Even the Battle of Maccarage (sp?) I don't think was a real invasion. Just scouting, in force.

6) Necrons are an old power. But they are waking up. The bulk of them are asleep. They're not openly carving territory/culling worlds. They're gathering their forces. They are amazingly powerful - indvidually. As a whole they aren't impacting the Galaxy in a massive way.

7) Dark Eldar are raiders. They aren't interested in conquest. They don't even live in the Universe technically. They live in the Webway. Their techonology is impressive and their raids successful but they don't actually affect all that much at the galactic scale.

8) The Tau are new comers. They're a very slow Empire and they are expanding. They don't barely affect anything on the Segmentum level yet though, and definitely nothing outside their quarter of the Galaxy.

Tyranids > Orks > Imperium > Chaos > Dark Eldar > Newcrons > Eldar > Tau

DarkCorsair wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azure wrote:Just to toss this in about the Necrons

Spoiler:

In Fall of Damnos it mentions that scarabs attack a Leman Russ and, in front of the guardsmens' eyes, create both more warriors and scarabs. So they Can get more, it just requires metal

Eh...I'm iffy about counting Black Library as fluff. That was also written during the old codex, in which I believe new necrons actually could be made (Pariahs I think?).

While it was written before the new codex, it was definitely written for the new fluff as it was the first thing to introduce Crypteks, Lychguard, and the shape for the new spyders/wraiths. Concerning whether or not they were just new bodies for old consciousnesses, keep in mind that the Necron warrior is nothing more then an automaton. It has no will, no motive, no abilities outside of absolute obedience, a warrior really is on no higher level then the scarabs, spyders, wraiths, or tomb stalkers, and as such would not require a Necron...soul to make it a full Necron. All it requires it so be built and then set in motion.

DarkCorsair wrote:Necrons attack world, kill a million orks, those are replaced within a few days. Necrons lose 5 after repairs, those are never replaced. As the Necrons expand their empire, they will get into more and more conflicts, and simply won't have the numbers to sustain it. The reason they are relatively powerful right now is because most are ignorant of them or do not see them as a credible threat. It's also rather hard for them to hold a position on a non-tomb world, because when a Necron is killed and doesn't combat repair or burn up, it phases back to the Tomb World for repair. So even though it didn't die, you still lose some of your fighting force.

I am only going to attack the first bit concerning orks. The orks would not come back, they would die out quick, and they would die out forever on that world without more orks constantly coming in. Necron tomb worlds are called that because not even a microscopic bacterium survives on them to repopulate life. Necrons did this to entire systems worth of worlds to remain undisturbed, this means that an ork spore, large by comparison to the bacteria, has absolutely no chance of budding into a new ork. The Necron guass flayer utterly annihilates the ork so no spores can be created by his death, and Necron warriors stick around to clear out spores after a battle. In a war against Necrons, orks Need a massive advantage in initial numbers to win as they will be unable to reinforce via their normal methods and Necrons are just hard to kill

Millions of tomb worlds is just as much of a poetic description as is billions of Necrons or 1 million Imperial worlds. In your words, not technically factual.

"This statement is a moving goal post which just allows you to select a time period that is convenient to your argument."

Or rather, stating that it's a time period where things don't hang in the balance. If we take it as it is now, on the dawn of the 41st millenium, only a fraction of the Necrons have awakened. This simply hurts your cause. While I agree that it is a radical mistake placing Necrons as last, they are certainly not tied for first. You also have to look at the space power of the Necrons; Imotekh's flagship (so one of the most powerful available to the Necrons) was taken out by a mere Battle Barge, not a particularly powerful ship by Imperial standards.

On to the next paragraph. First off: Grots have a 1/54 chance of causing a WOUND to a chapter master with no bought wargear. So for every 54 grots against a lone chapter master one slips a dagger in between armor joints...doesn't seem too improbable to me. Also, you're taking the extreme of things here.

Attacking without retaliation makes you powerful, because you can't lose. Dark Eldar also have the numbers and the technology to be at #4.

I believe you misunderstood my comments on the warp...I was stating that you can't take the fight to the Daemons, so they attack when and where they want. My comments on the warp were saying that trillions of daemons reside there, despite only a fraction appearing in invasions. Massive invasions can and have happened, there's an instance in the Eldar codex that I can't recall the name of where millions of Daemons poured out and only a combined massive defense by the Imperium and Eldar stopped. Also, if BL is considered canon, a small portion of the Iron Warriors took out a very heavily defended world housing lots of geneseed in Storm of Iron, and took out a massive fortress designed by the Imperial Fists them selves, guarded by several regiments of Imperial Guard, a company of Imperial Fists, and multiple titans.

The number of Eldar lost on the path of the warrior is a fraction of their already small population. By their nature, Eldar aren't really a warlike race. Eldar are above Tau but below the others, I will concede that.

On the last note about the consciousness being placed in to new bodies, there are two things wrong:
1) The Necrons currently are looking for ways to reverse the biotransference, so it is highly unlikely they would create new metallic bodies beyond a few tomb worlds.
2) Each time a Necron phases out, part of it's consciousness breaks down, so it would get to a point where it would no longer be possible.

I like this discussion. It's interesting








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:Tyranids > Orks > Imperium > Chaos > Dark Eldar > Newcrons > Eldar > Tau

I am more than willing to agree with this standpoint.

The entire concept of power rankings gives me the irrits. None of it is relevant, and it only serves to reinforce stereotypes that you then have to break later on.

Just because army X is ranked 1 and army Z is ranked 9 doesn't mean that army X will win. You have to take into account the local factors and scenario specifics.

Ranking things like this hinders creativity and the narrative elements of the setting.

It's like in the Draigo vs Mortarion fight. A lot of people go on about how Mortarion is so many levels higher than Draigo...

But there are no levels. We don't differentiate between characters on some arbitrary power ranking scheme, and nor should we. All it does is confine us.

This isn't to say that everyone is equal, simply that it is more important to tell a good story than it is to stick to any preconcieved notions of power levels.

Kaldor wrote:The entire concept of power rankings gives me the irrits. None of it is relevant, and it only serves to reinforce stereotypes that you then have to break later on.

Just because army X is ranked 1 and army Z is ranked 9 doesn't mean that army X will win. You have to take into account the local factors and scenario specifics.

Ranking things like this hinders creativity and the narrative elements of the setting.

It's like in the Draigo vs Mortarion fight. A lot of people go on about how Mortarion is so many levels higher than Draigo...

But there are no levels. We don't differentiate between characters on some arbitrary power ranking scheme, and nor should we. All it does is confine us.

This isn't to say that everyone is equal, simply that it is more important to tell a good story than it is to stick to any preconcieved notions of power levels.

This isn't "If x and y met on the battlefield, x would win," but rather seeing which faction is more powerful on an overall galactic scale. This has no impact on storytelling, because as you said, scenarios, matchups, and pure awesomeness can change things.

1. Necrons
2. Tyranids
3. Chaos
4. Imperium
5. Orks
6. Eldar
7. Tau

(in terms of overall threat potential)

DarkCorsair wrote:
This isn't "If x and y met on the battlefield, x would win," but rather seeing which faction is more powerful on an overall galactic scale. This has no impact on storytelling, because as you said, scenarios, matchups, and pure awesomeness can change things.

It's all linked, and all crap. You can never say with any degree of certainty who is most powerful on a galactic scale because there are far too many variables to consider.

Kaldor wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:
This isn't "If x and y met on the battlefield, x would win," but rather seeing which faction is more powerful on an overall galactic scale. This has no impact on storytelling, because as you said, scenarios, matchups, and pure awesomeness can change things.

It's all linked, and all crap. You can never say with any degree of certainty who is most powerful on a galactic scale because there are far too many variables to consider.

Saying it's all crap is a bit harsh; I'm doing this for my own enjoyment and to have a discussion with other people on their points of view. It helps to reveal what threats different races pose and why they do so.

DarkCorsair wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:
This isn't "If x and y met on the battlefield, x would win," but rather seeing which faction is more powerful on an overall galactic scale. This has no impact on storytelling, because as you said, scenarios, matchups, and pure awesomeness can change things.

It's all linked, and all crap. You can never say with any degree of certainty who is most powerful on a galactic scale because there are far too many variables to consider.

Saying it's all crap is a bit harsh; I'm doing this for my own enjoyment and to have a discussion with other people on their points of view. It helps to reveal what threats different races pose and why they do so.

Sorry, I didn't mean crap in that way, I just meant that no result could ever be measurable or repeatable, so any given result would be crap.

The only way to measure who 'ranks' higher than anyone else is to decide who could beat who, and since there are too many factors to consider, no result is ever going to be final.

Theoretically the Tau could be the most powerful, because they win most of their engagements, and no other race has the resources or inclination to engage them.

I'm much more ok with cowmonauts list, though I don't necessarily agree with every point.

cowmonaut wrote:
1) The Imperium spans across the entire Galaxy. Its an Empire in decline, its not actually defeated yet. Its definitely going downhill. But its just got too much military might and the Imperial Cult is binding it all together. They just have the numbers and resources. Also, it could just be because the story is told from the perspective of the IoM, but it seems most of the other races are using their power against the IoM for the most part. So when you're talking about their "power to affect the Galaxy" you typically mean their power to affect the IoM.

2) Orks spread easily and all they live for is war. They aren't united so they aren't top dogs. They fight among themselves as much as with others. At the same time though their aggressive acts affect pretty much all the other major players in the galaxy. You can't really beat them as a species by fighting them directly.

I've got to say I disagree here. The Imperium itself isn't that united, and most Imperial wars are fought against themselves too. Now you could argue that the orks are MORE factitious, and that is true in many circumstances, but they also are more united in many circumstances. We know of Ork Waaagh!s and empires outside of imperial space that dwarf any united effort the Imperium can put together.

And as far as galactic Impact goes, the Orks are the greatest concern to the vast majority of races in the galaxy. Every race must deal with orks. They outnumber the next closest faction by orders of magnitude.

But I agree the first two slots are fairly debatable.

3) Eldar are very few in number but they are the oldest race next to the Necrons (and Tyranids, though Tyranids are new to the Galaxy). They do all kinds of things to manipulate events behind the scenes to suit their own agenda and ensure their survival. As mentioned by others, all other races tread careful around Eldar as they're technology is very powerful and they are very knowledgeable.

It partially seems like you are giving the Craftworld Eldar the number two spot as recognition for being the 'true' eldar, so they get all the points for being old, having high technology, and manipulating event. But the recent codex makes a good argument that it is in fact the Dark Eldar that are the true inheritors of the eldar heritage, and the the craftworld eldar are the fringe group, rather like eldar amish. They outnumber the craftworld by an order of magnitude, have greater access to the ancient Eldar tech, and are overall have a much greater effect on galactic events. The Craftworld Eldar, while powerful and respected, are close to their breaking point. Their actuions are typically just focused on trying to scrape by, not changing the shape of the universe or challening any of the other factions.

4) Chaos is Chaos. They'd be more powerful except that they're a bit anchored as to where their power bases are. Unless they are near some point in space where the Warp meets the Universe (Eye of Terror, Maelstrom), they have limited resources and are more a raiding force than a real force of conquest. Generally speaking they usually only care about the IoM as well, since when we speak Chaos we mean mainly Traitor Guard / CSM. Chaos Daemons as well but again, they have to act through others who are usually human.

No disagreement here.

5) Tyranids are scary powerful. The only problem is not a lot of them are actually IN the galaxy. They're pretty localized to specific areas. So far they seem to just be probing. I don't think any real incursion has actually happened yet. Even the Battle of Maccarage (sp?) I don't think was a real invasion. Just scouting, in force.

Yeah, I can see this. We are scared of what the forces the Tyrinids MIGHT have, but we don't actually know. And as I pointed out in my previous post, it is difficult to arbitrarily choose a future frame of time to work in. As it stands they definitely aren't one of the top 3 threats, though they likely will be within the next 500 years.

6) Necrons are an old power. But they are waking up. The bulk of them are asleep. They're not openly carving territory/culling worlds. They're gathering their forces. They are amazingly powerful - indvidually. As a whole they aren't impacting the Galaxy in a massive way.

Going with my previous statements I partially agree with you here, we should probably not treat the sleeping Necrons as an active faction.

But I don't know that you are up on current Necron lore. A faction in 40k has finally ::gasp:: advanced! A large percentage of Necrons ARE awake now, and actively waging war on a galactic scale. Imotekh is already noted as being perhaps the most accomplished conqueror currently alive, having conquered sectors of space, hundreds of system, over the course of just a few decades, which makes him perhaps the most successful conqueror since the great crusade. And he isn't alone in that. There are now hundreds of Necron dynasties actively carving out territory. And while they are factitious, their codex makes careful note that they are almost always willing to unique against 'lesser' species.

I really feel that their current fluff attempts to put them on par with the Imperium in power, while implying a full awakening would be bad news for the galaxy at large (as has always been the case with their fluff).

7) Dark Eldar are raiders. They aren't interested in conquest. They don't even live in the Universe technically. They live in the Webway. Their techonology is impressive and their raids successful but they don't actually affect all that much at the galactic scale.

Again, I think you are operating off an older version of the fluff. Their new codex makes it clear that they have a vast population. While Commoragh is called a city it is more of another plane of existence with a population in the quadrillions. They are much more active the the affairs of the galaxy than that of the Craftworld Eldar. Even if it is 'just' raiding, there are so many of them that their occasional raids are a major concern to every other faction, much more so than the occasional manipulation of their cousins.

8) The Tau are new comers. They're a very slow Empire and they are expanding. They don't barely affect anything on the Segmentum level yet though, and definitely nothing outside their quarter of the Galaxy.

No dissagrement here.

DarkCorsair wrote:Millions of tomb worlds is just as much of a poetic description as is billions of Necrons or 1 million Imperial worlds. In your words, not technically factual.

Yes, I fully agree, it is not meant to be descriptive as an exact number, it is supposed to give a general impression of their position in the galaxy, much as the Imperial count of "1 million worlds" does. So we take that into account with the description of the population of tomb worlds, the maps supplied of Necron activity, the Imperial and Eldar concern over the Necron threat, and the context those two lines were spoken in and we are left with...a freaking ton of Necrons. They are considered a major galactic power and a major galactic threat, the Eldar considered them to be the biggest threat to life in the galaxy. Everything in the fluff speaks against the "billions of necrons" line, every thin else speaks for them having well over a million worlds.

Or rather, stating that it's a time period where things don't hang in the balance. If we take it as it is now, on the dawn of the 41st millenium, only a fraction of the Necrons have awakened. This simply hurts your cause. While I agree that it is a radical mistake placing Necrons as last, they are certainly not tied for first. You also have to look at the space power of the Necrons; Imotekh's flagship (so one of the most powerful available to the Necrons) was taken out by a mere Battle Barge, not a particularly powerful ship by Imperial standards.

You are exactly correct, and I will agree that in placing the Necrons tied for first I was making the same 'moving goal post' error I accused you of. The current Necron forces, while possibly the most actively threatening opponent the Imperium has, is NOT equal in power to the Imperium. There ARE however far many more awake than in the old codex. As I mentioned before, Imotekh alone has conquered scores of sectors in just a few decades, and numerous other lords are doing likewise. But I agree you couldn't argue the currently risen stock a match for either the orks, or IoM.

Likewise I would contend the Tyranids get dropped back. While they may in the future be a huge threat, they currently are a regional one, and we just don't know how many there may be. The Imperium theorizes these may just be scout fleets, but they just don't know.

On to the next paragraph. First off: Grots have a 1/54 chance of causing a WOUND to a chapter master with no bought wargear. So for every 54 grots against a lone chapter master one slips a dagger in between armor joints...doesn't seem too improbable to me. Also, you're taking the extreme of things here.

Ok, but the point was the rules really, REALLY don't represent abilities in fluff.

Attacking without retaliation makes you powerful, because you can't lose. Dark Eldar also have the numbers and the technology to be at #4.

I don't disagree, they are a power house.

I believe you misunderstood my comments on the warp...I was stating that you can't take the fight to the Daemons, so they attack when and where they want. My comments on the warp were saying that trillions of daemons reside there, despite only a fraction appearing in invasions. Massive invasions can and have happened, there's an instance in the Eldar codex that I can't recall the name of where millions of Daemons poured out and only a combined massive defense by the Imperium and Eldar stopped. Also, if BL is considered canon, a small portion of the Iron Warriors took out a very heavily defended world housing lots of geneseed in Storm of Iron, and took out a massive fortress designed by the Imperial Fists them selves, guarded by several regiments of Imperial Guard, a company of Imperial Fists, and multiple titans.

While you can't fight to the demons, by and large they can't fight to you. I was just pointing out I don't like the argument "the are powerful because they have unlimited resources". As a galactic power, just just can't project as much force as many of the other top tier factions.

The number of Eldar lost on the path of the warrior is a fraction of their already small population. By their nature, Eldar aren't really a warlike race. Eldar are above Tau but below the others, I will concede that.

Small is a relative term here. They still have a huge population compared to most, galactic spanning factions. But I agree, they are the weakest of the galactic factions. I just took issue with the Tau being ranked above them, being a small regional threat.

On the last note about the consciousness being placed in to new bodies, there are two things wrong:
1) The Necrons currently are looking for ways to reverse the biotransference, so it is highly unlikely they would create new metallic bodies beyond a few tomb worlds.
2) Each time a Necron phases out, part of it's consciousness breaks down, so it would get to a point where it would no longer be possible.

I have problems with both these assertions.
1) only some tomb worlds are attempting to reverse it. There is a lot of room for such behavior amongst the different dynasties.
2) Firstly, this is more true for lower tiered troops like warriors. And even then, they can still function. Lords like Trazyn the Infinite seem to be able to transfer continuously and at will with no ill effects.

I like this discussion. It's interesting

My revised list for the current state of the galaxy, based on the concession that the only fair way to compare is to base it on each factions current ability to project power and effect change within the galaxy is
Ork->Imperium->DE/Necron->Tyranids/Chaos->Eldar->Tau



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean crap in that way, I just meant that no result could ever be measurable or repeatable, so any given result would be crap.

The only way to measure who 'ranks' higher than anyone else is to decide who could beat who, and since there are too many factors to consider, no result is ever going to be final.

Theoretically the Tau could be the most powerful, because they win most of their engagements, and no other race has the resources or inclination to engage them.

I can't say I fully agree. I a fair measure is to attempt to measure each factions ability to project power, accomplish military objectives, and influence change in the universe. If we just focus on the galaxy in it's current state and don't bring up each factions promises of future power (Necrons and Tyranids are the greatest offenders here, followed by the IoM, Eldar and Tau), it isn't impossible to attempt to assess each factions power.

Id have to go with somelike like this...

1. Tyranids
2. Orks.
3. Necrons
4. IoM
5. Chaos
6. Dark Eldar
7. Craftworld Eldar
8. Tau

Admittedly Im no expert in fluff. The top 3 are really a tie. They kinda cancel eachother out. Necrons im my opinion are probably the strongest but because they lack the power to reproduce, atleast at the same rate as an Ork or a Tyranid I ranked those two higher than the Necrons. Having said that it is impossible to know even get an estimated number on any of those 3. Tyranids and Orks are basically just an endless swarm whereas I would imagine Necrons having a Finite number of units to call upon. Its really tight between those three in my opinion. The rest are kinda easy.

I would rank Chaos higher but the fact that most of their power exists in the warp makes them less of a threat in my opinion.

Just what "on power" means?
Political power? Military power? Resources? Cultural influence? Population? Space Fleet? Number of planets holding?

There are to many factors here, but if you mean in terms of ultimate power:

1. Imperium of Mankind ( really there is no contest for the Imperium, yet. ~million united planets, advanced technology, great number of army's at disposal and even grater number of those that can be built, powerful space fleets, unlimited resources... )

2. Orks ( have more worlds, superior to Humans in sheer power and numbers, but lacks unity and real means of transportation, Ork will always fight no matter who his opponent is and that is their downside and reason for not being number 1 )

3. Chaos ( unlimited amount of very powerful beings and a fact that they can use emotions and souls to feed themselves, but they lack unity as well [ every Chaos God is looking after himself first ], and the fact that they require summoning and warp storm so that they can stay in our reality [ witch is difficult to achieve ] put's them in number 3 )

4. Tyranids ( the fact that we don't know if there are other Tyranid Hive Fleets out there, or that maybe Leviathan is the last of their race we can't say for sure how powerful Tyranid race is. They rely on Hive Mind witch is disadvantage if that connection breaks up and the fact that they can be easily defeated in most situations [ Tarsis Ultra, Aurelia, Macragge ] put's them on number 4 )

5. Necrons ( powerful ancient race with countless worlds holding their tombs and technology so advanced it can rip atoms in shreeds. But they lack unity [ Silent King destroy last chance that Necrons will ever be as united as when they served the C'Tan ] and the fact that their means of transportation is unreliable Webway gate [ as well as old and slow space ships that can't make long "jumps" degrading them to only local threats ] and fact that many tomb worlds in the galaxy are either destroyed/raided place them on number 5. )

6. Dark Eldar ( powerful race but near extinction and they rather want to spent the rest of their lives pleasing their horrifying emotions then actually conquering something or seeing to their own survival place them on number 6 )

7. Cratworld Eldar ( powerful race, but lacking numbers and slowly dying out. Their tactics now involve making the events so that some other force can do their job instead of them [ Imperium, Orks ], they hold unknown numbers of Maiden worlds and Craftworlds, but giving their position that they are dying race and that they can't fight straight on battles with other factions place them on number 7 )

8. Tau Empire ( with only ~100 worlds Tau are dead last in terms of galactic power [ sorry Kroothawk ]. But they are unified race that consist of other races in their empire, as well as fact that their techology per individual is second only to Necron and Eldar. But as long as they are in this situations, as well as fact that their warp travelling is as slow as Necron one [ maybe Tau ones are faster? ] and that all other races outnumber them ridiciously place them as dead last - for now )

Feel free to judge but I will not change my mind no matter what.

Tyranids lost all credibility when hive fleets failed to take out a single SM chapter's sector and a single Eldar craftworld.

It's important to realize that the Ultramarine/IG forces that defeated the hive fleet represented... what? A tiny fraction of the Imperium's total military power. If the IoM was somehow able to focus all of its power on just the tyranids, they would exterminate the space bugs utterly in a couple decades at the most. The same is true of any faction really. There's no faction in WH40K besides "chaos" itself (as it can't be killed by conventional means) and the orks that could withstand the full fury of the Imperium. All the opposing factions are lucky that the IoM is on the defensive and spread out everywhere.

IMO :

1.) Orks AND Necrons
-- If the Orks ever united, which will never happen, they would overcome all the other races - lucky for everyone else, they like to fight so much, they mostly fight amongst themselves.
However currently, Necrons are the biggest threat in the universe. The just appear, obliterate everything, leave, kthxbye.

2.) Eldar -- few left with the most technology and wisdom.

3.) Everything else

Brother Coa wrote:
Feel free to judge but I will not change my mind no matter what.

Well that certainly makes you a joy to have conversions with.

I was interested liked some of your points and preparing to reply, but obviously there is no point.

This isn't a sermon, and no one is interested in your 'wisdom' they are interested in communication and debate. If your not interested in having a dialogue, if you have no interest in our oppinions, why should we have any interest in yours?

riplikash wrote:
I was interested liked some of your points and preparing to reply, but obviously there is no point.

This isn't a sermon, and no one is interested in your 'wisdom' they are interested in communication and debate. If your not interested in having a dialogue, if you have no interest in our oppinions, why should we have any interest in yours?

Good, I hate arguments...

Don't be offended, feel free to post your opinion. I am just saying that i won't reply to it.

Why do people rate chaos higher then the IoM. Theyve only had.13 failed crusades, lead by Failbadon. Seems fairly safe that the IoM is stronger then chaos. Of course current fluff make both chaos and nids into jokes.

Brother Coa wrote:
Good, I hate arguments...

Don't be offended, feel free to post your opinion. I am just saying that i won't reply to it.

No, what you are saying is you hate discussion. If your not interested in anyone eases opinion it begs the question why they should be interested in your. You have basically outright stated you don't care if your right or not, and you don't want to be part of the conversation.

Thankfully you apparently wont be replying and the discussion can continue in your absence.

riplikash wrote:
No, what you are saying is you hate discussion. If your not interested in anyone eases opinion it begs the question why they should be interested in your. You have basically outright stated you don't care if your right or not, and you don't want to be part of the conversation.

Thankfully you apparently wont be replying and the discussion can continue in your absence.

No, I am interested in other people's opinion, I am just saying that I will not start a thread war ( witch is this thread great candidate for ). So I respect other people's opinion but I will not reply to it to prevent it from leading into endless discussion - it is as simple as that. If you believe otherwise that is not my problem but yours.

And that doesn't mean that I will be watching how will this thread developed and reply if necessary.