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Laodamia wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Ok, Chaos is NOT a minor threat. I am fairly certain it says several times that Chaos is the IoM no. 1 enemy. If they weren't why do you think an ENTIRE ORGANIZATION has been formed to counteract its influence? Why do you think that they are so bloody paranoid about "heresy"? Because the IoM fears chaos. They fear chaos because chaos is a major threat.

Oh, and don't underestimate the power of civil wars. Do you know how the Roman fell? Because of the mass civil wars, which weakened the empire to the point that it couldn't protect itself against outside threats. You know the Roman Empire, right? The LARGEST Empire in the world, renowned for its military prowess?

I am sorry if I come off as a bit harsh, but I have a strong aversion to fan-boy levels of ignorance.

I know it's late in France when you wrote your post (I'm going to bed, for instance), but take the time to read my post again.

Tip: I was being ironic. Chaos is not a minor threat to the IoM.

Oh really?
Ah, sorry, I thought you were being serious
Derp on my part.

Laodamia wrote:
True, I'll grant you that the raid was staged by Asdrubael.
But it's written in the fluff that it was the first time an enemy penetrated Commoragh (don't make me get out the line in the DE codex).

Ok, I'll buy that. The details of DE fluff definitely aren't my strong suit. My main thrust there was it really shouldn't be taken into account as proof of Imperial power.

No, just the greatest they have ever faced head on.

Once more, it's written in the fluff.

Yes, but it is a point that has been contradicted on occasion. It is the greatest WAAGH! the Imperium has ever encountered, but that doesn't make it the greatest ever, just the greatest the Imperium has had to personally deal with. The other times things like this happen, the races involved likely don't survive.

Anyways, the main point wasn't to discount it as proof of Imperial strength, it really was impressive that they withstood it, I was just trying to point out it wasn't the greatest WAAAGH ever to occur.

Really? Fine by me it just means that Chaos is nothing more than a "minor threat" then, since the best they can do is some pesky civil trouble.

I never said or implied anything like that, just that surviving your own civil war doesn't necessarily help when comparing the power of different civilizations.

I fully agree that Chaos is the greatest threat to the Imperium, largely because it is an insidious, internal conflict, the most dangerous kind. But also because humans are particularly vulnerable to it.

I'm just pointing out that fighting them off doesn't really work as a demonstration of their power compared to other galactic powers.

Once, more, it's written in the fluff that Leviathan is (so far) the largest hive fleet that has entered the galaxy. Other, smaller hive fleets were encountered by other races (the tau defeated Gorgon, for example).

I think the argument could still be made that Tyranid fluff is always written from the Imperial perspective, but reguardless I do agree that the Imperium surviving that was pretty huge. I have never argued the Imperium isn't one of the premier powers in the galaxy, able to challenge any other power in a head to head confrontation.

I invite you to read a timeline of the 40K universe. The Necron empire didn't rule for "a billion years" nor did the Eldar empire last "60 million years".

In addition, the Eldar empire mostly encompassed the stars that are now part of the EoT (exodite worlds are rare), which is a relatively limited part of the galaxy.

The Necrons went to sleep at the end of the War in Heaven, 60 million years ago, and from then until M25 the Eldar were the dominant power in the galaxy, so that is where their number comes from.

We don't really know how long the Necrons and Old ones were were doing their thing, and though the number 'billion' years has been thrown around I'll agree it seems far fetched. But both of them were established for far longer than the Imperium has been.

The Eldar likewise are said to have colonized 'millions' of worlds, which is far beyond what the Imperium has.

Just because the Imperium is spread out doesn't mean they are 'bigger'. The Imperium doesn't have defined borders. Thousands of alien empires exist within Imperial 'borders' many of them completely unknown to the Imperium, which hasn't explored a fraction of the worlds within what could loosely be defined as its 'borders'. The Eldar were able to terraform worlds fairly easily, and thus were able to keep their empire more concentrated.

And we can see in M41, from the number and the frequency at which necron tomb worlds awaken, that only a minority of worlds in the galaxy were colonized by the necrontyrs.

Their codex outright states 'millions' of worlds, and recent fluff has made it clear that the Necrons are now awakening on a vast scale.

In a sidenote, you seem to take your fun by pointlessly trying to take each of my arguments separately and then by contradicting them. IMHO, it appears you are simply interested in arguing with me and asserting your authority over a fellow dakkanaut than contributing to the debate... and that is sad.

Sorry if it feels that way, it is just an effective way to break down counter points to long posts. I'm not trying to assert authority, I've already ceded several points in this topic to good counter arguments. That is how discussion works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ignatius wrote:
I agree on all your other points riplikash, but I have to argue that shrugging this off is grossly misidentifying its significance. The idea was that all these things happening at the same time displays the raw power imperium has as well as its potential for mobalising massive retaliation armies. The way I look at it is this: Germany during world war two had the ability, in my personal opinion to defeat soviet russia, france, britian, and every other european country. The problem was timing. If they engaged at different times, rather than attacking at the same time, this conquest could have been possible, if not probable.

Now switch to the Imperium against its enemies. Replace germany with the Imperium. The fact that they can stop everything even with their forces being fractioned is a testament to their power. Now imagine that they had a large majority of their forces attacking one region. They come out on top most times as described in fluff. See: Macharian Crusade and Great Crusade.

That is true, and something I overlooked in my focus on the parts of the argument. The greatest testiment to the Imperiums power is their ability to take on multiple galactic level threats at the same time.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Ok, Chaos is NOT a minor threat. I am fairly certain it says several times that Chaos is the IoM no. 1 enemy. If they weren't why do you think an ENTIRE ORGANIZATION has been formed to counteract its influence? Why do you think that they are so bloody paranoid about "heresy"? Because the IoM fears chaos. They fear chaos because chaos is a major threat.

Oh, and don't underestimate the power of civil wars. Do you know how the Roman fell? Because of the mass civil wars, which weakened the empire to the point that it couldn't protect itself against outside threats. You know the Roman Empire, right? The LARGEST Empire in the world, renowned for its military prowess?

I am sorry if I come off as a bit harsh, but I have a strong aversion to fan-boy levels of ignorance.

I fully agree, chaos is the greatest threat to the Imperium. But a big reason for that is the insidious nature of chaos, and humanities suceptability to it. To the Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and Tau chaos is significantly less threatening. The list of biggest threats to the Imperium is not the same as the list of most powerful galactic faction.

You know the fluff for choas does make it seem minor. Every book usually has choas as the bad guy and the iom as the good guy, since people generally like the good guy he has to win. Therefore making chaos appear to be a weak minor threat. Note I said appear, not is.

Note: it wasnt just civil war that cause the fall of rome. It was a multitude of factors, like a shift from urban to rural, cost of mantaining the empire, and the decline of the roman army. Which is interesting because you can see alot of simularities to the IoM, and makes me wonder if thats the direction GW is taking it.

Yeah, they suffer from the worst combination of Warf syndrom and Cobra Commander-itis I have ever seen.

riplikash wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:My problem with Necrons at the top is this. The majority of the Imperium is ignorant to their existence, and they aren't acknowledged as a credible threat currently aside from the odd vengeful Space Marine chapter. If they ever got into a large sustained conflict with the Imperium, an actual war, I have no doubt the Imperium would win. They have much more manpower, more resources, better star ships, and Exterminatus. They can deploy regiment upon regiment of tanks, artillery, and infantry. If the Imperium actually diverted forces against the Necrons, they would mostly likely win out. Also, keep in mind that when the Necrons attack you don't need to kill them beyond repair, just make them phase back to the Tomb World for repair, which is much easier than destroying them outright. And even so, I'm sure a few Earthshaker or battlecannon rounds would cause severe damage to a necron.

I can only think that you must not know Necron fluff at all.

Firstly, I know 40k fluff doesn't move forwards very often, but it HAS advanced recently. The Necrons are largely awake and challenging the Imperium on most fronts, and have already destroyed dozens of hive worlds and hundreds of lesser worlds. They are currently involved in many active wars against the Imperium, and the Imperium knows this. They are no longer a hidden threat.

Second the Imperium has "a million worlds", the Necrons have "millions of Tomb Worlds". They really don't out manpower, or out resource them.

And where in the world did you get the idea that the Imperium had batter starships? The Necrons have been the top dogs in space combat since Battlefleet Gothic. No one can currently seriously challenge the Necrons in space. Exterminatus isn't very impressive either. The Necrons have tech to wipe out star systems literally at the wave of a hand (the galactic orery being necron tech). They have plenty of methods for destroying worlds.

Not sure what is so impressive about their ability to deploy regimens. Congradulations, they can wage war. So can the Necrons. So can everyone. Of course, when a guard regimen dies, it's dead and gone. When you defeat a necron legion you just end up fighting it again later.

Now somehow you have come to the conclusion that the Necrons ability to heal from fatal wounds and instantly retreat from bad situations via phase out is...a weakness? You know they can no longer be 'forced' to phase out, right? So they can take an order of more magnitude damage than their opponents before going down, heal and get back up most of the time, and if things go bad they can teleport out rather than taking casualties. And this is a weakness.

No, obviously your right. I would much rather lose my troops permanently to death and loose huge numbers of troops in retreat actions.

And I don't know what earthshaker rounds and battle canons have to do with anything. No one disputes that the Necrons have the most powerful guns, there isn't even a comparison there.

First bold: p. 14 of the Necron codex, "Even within the Imperium, the Necrons are only dimly understood, with just a handful of individuals aware of the true scale of their threat."

Second bold: p. 27, Imotekh's flagship is outgunned by a space marine battle barge.

Third bold: Exterminatus completely wipes out the world, turning it into a wasteland, which I'd say is pretty effective. The Orery can't really be used, since the effects of snuffing out a star are huge and have many secondary effects, so it is almost never used.

Fourth bold: My point was that the Imperium can wage war on an almost endless scale. The loss of millions means almost nothing to the Imperium. Also, if you defeat a necron legion not every single one of them is repaired. Anrakyr's Pyrrhian's, which were a "vast Immortal legion" upon his awakening, are now down to a single squad. And those are some of the best Immortals in the Necron race.

Fifth bold: No, it's not a weakness, but I'm saying they aren't as impervious as you state, because each time a Necron phases out to be repaired, that subracts one from their fighting strength in that battle or on that world.

Sixth bold: Again, thousands of guardsmen or orks don't die without a single necron dying, and even then those losses are fairly trivial.

Seventh: The statement was showing that the most common ordnance used by the Imperium can easily prevent a Necron from repairing. Meltas and Plasmas, also fairly common, will have the same effect since they would melt the metal.

Edit: Sorry, misinterpreted Anrakyr's fluff, the Pyrrhians still have a considerable number left, but far, far below their initial strength. Also, you might want to spell check a little bit.

A resurrection orb has had the effect of completely negating any plasma or melta damage. The Necron bodies were not but pools of silver, then the Lord appears, speaks a word, the orb flashes, and the entire field of Necrons bar none arise.

As to the second point, we've discussed it was entire fleet against roughly 4 ships or so

BlaxicanX wrote:Tyranids lost all credibility when hive fleets failed to take out a single SM chapter's sector and a single Eldar craftworld.

It's important to realize that the Ultramarine/IG forces that defeated the hive fleet represented... what? A tiny fraction of the Imperium's total military power. If the IoM was somehow able to focus all of its power on just the tyranids, they would exterminate the space bugs utterly in a couple decades at the most. The same is true of any faction really. There's no faction in WH40K besides "chaos" itself (as it can't be killed by conventional means) and the orks that could withstand the full fury of the Imperium. All the opposing factions are lucky that the IoM is on the defensive and spread out everywhere.

Thats just called plot armor and being the chosen chapter of our Spiritual Leige, Matt Ward

The Hive Fleets have wiped out several space marine chapters
If i had to Rank them in terms of overall power in the universe
1) IOM
2) Tyranids (If they all came in at the same time, they'd be number one)
3) Orks (if united, #1)
4) Chaos
5) Necrons
6) Dark Eldar
7) Craftworld Eldar &Tau

My reasoning (not that it REALLY matters in terms of fluff)
The imperium has to be number one, they have the largest military and production capacity, and can bring untold billions of soldiers into battle. They would crush any single one of the other factions in Empire on Empire combat.The only reason they are in decline, is that everyone and their uncle is ganging up on them.
Tyranids come in at number two for me, each hive fleet that has come in has been more powerful than the last. Each victory they win multiplies their numbers greatly, rapid evolution to threats against them. Even in defeat, splinter fleets remain a massive problem, that can evolve into fully-blown threat once more.
Orks is da' strongest ya gitz! If we had one warboss, with all the clans under his WAAAGH, pretty much nobody could stop them if they wanted to.
Chaos, being chaos, can never be the strongest, due to its divisive nature. Its warriors are strong, however, even they fight amongst themselves. Chaos will never have the strength it had during the Horus Heresy without a strong figurehead to unite them under (Abbadon really hasn't been up to the task, his black crusades have yet to even conquer the Cadian Gate for crying out loud)
Necrons, their ancient, powerful technology is eons above all others, beside that of the Eldar. They have yet to wake up fully, but once they do, will present a greater threat. Their numbers are legion, an their soldiers are by far some of the strongest in the galaxy on a soldier by soldier basis.
Dark Eldar. Their numbers are stable, but they are greatly outnumbered by almost every other race in the galaxy. Their weaponry, and skill in battle is extreme, and they have a extremely stable presence from which to deploy from, but they lack the projection to threaten galactic control. Also their chaotic nature, yet again, dooms their chances of ever becoming a truely unified force, even more so than that of the forces of chaos. They would gladly stab each other in the back, just for the posibility of advancement in their Cabal, or Dark Eldar Society.
Craftworld Eldar--> It isnt a matter of tech, unity, or the like, its simply numbers, they are doomed, because they can't match the numbers of the lesser races, one on one, in the top 3 as far as individual skill in combat goes.
Tau--> They lack the numbers and "killer urge" to really be much higher, their tech is great, but their armed forces are small by comparison to everyone else's

DarkCorsair wrote:
First bold: p. 14 of the Necron codex, "Even within the Imperium, the Necrons are only dimly understood, with just a handful of individuals aware of the true scale of their threat."

Dimly understood, few know the true scale. That is totally different from largely unknown or rare.

Second bold: p. 27, Imotekh's flagship is outgunned by a space marine battle barge.

This has been gone over. I quoted the text directly. It does not say the flagship was outguned by a battle barge. It says his flagship and its escorts were ambushed and destroyed by Black Templar FLEET. I never claimed they were invincible in space, but 1 on 1 their ships are much more powerful than Imperial ships. This has been true in every piece of fluff about Necron spacecraft, and section of the codex you mention does not contradict this in any way.

Third bold: Exterminatus completely wipes out the world, turning it into a wasteland, which I'd say is pretty effective. The Orery can't really be used, since the effects of snuffing out a star are huge and have many secondary effects, so it is almost never used.

They are both rarely used for similar reasons, they are more trouble than their worth. My real point about the Orery wasn't that it was a weapon, but that it demonstrates the kind of power the Necrons can throw around. They are more than capable of destroying worlds.

Fourth bold: My point was that the Imperium can wage war on an almost endless scale. The loss of millions means almost nothing to the Imperium. Also, if you defeat a necron legion not every single one of them is repaired. Anrakyr's Pyrrhian's, which were a "vast Immortal legion" upon his awakening, are now down to a single squad. And those are some of the best Immortals in the Necron race.

I agree with you there, the Imperium is a top level power. It is the despairing of the Necrons power is had issue with. You keep trying to blow weaknesses out of proportion when every the fluff mostly tries to portray them as a top level power. I wasn't trying to say they were invulnerable, just point out that they are incredibly tough and resilient.

Fifth bold: No, it's not a weakness, but I'm saying they aren't as impervious as you state, because each time a Necron phases out to be repaired, that subracts one from their fighting strength in that battle or on that world.

I never stated they were impervious, just pointing out that currently they are very strong and dangerous. They are currently winning the vast majority of their fights. Obviously they are doomed in the long run, but their eventual fall in a hundred thousand years doesn't change the fact that right now they are one of the greatest active threats in the galaxy.

Sixth bold: Again, thousands of guardsmen or orks don't die without a single necron dying, and even then those losses are fairly trivial.

Actually I'm fairly certain that at least as things stand that is about what the loss rate is. Again, yes they are doomed in the long run, but right now they are likely more powerful than the Imperium.

Seventh: The statement was showing that the most common ordnance used by the Imperium can easily prevent a Necron from repairing. Meltas and Plasmas, also fairly common, will have the same effect since they would melt the metal.

Actually the fluff indicates in several places that they can reform even from being melted. It is hard to nail down what exactly is going to finally end a Necron. Mostly it just seems to come down to dying too much. Even when finally forced to phase out in a broken heap it is impossible to tell if they actually died.

You gitz will argue fer a bazillion years an' ya ain't gonna convince no bodies uv' anyfink. Wiff only conjecture to stand ya'll up on den der isn't any troo numberz givin' ya troo answers.

But orks iz da best

Well, all this quoting is getting tiresome...only specific thing in your post I would like to mention, is Necrons permanently dying. It seems, from my understanding, that they permenantly die under two scenarios:

1) The repair mechanisms in the Necron's body are destroyed.
2) A repair requires a phase out, but the phase out fails (likely due to destroyed mechanisms or faulty technology) and the Necron subsequently burns up.

But to sum up my argument:
Necrons are indeed a powerful race, but not more so than the Imperium, the Orks, or the Tyranids. They are at #4.

1) Tyranids
2) Orks
3) Necrons
4) IoM
5) Chaos
6) Tau
7) Craftworld Eldar
8) Dark Eldar

DE are lowest because they're just chillin', really.
Tyranids are highest based on the full potential of their army, which spans galaxies.
Pretty much the top 3 are there because of potential to all unite and just go on a killing spree, but it'll probably never happen.
I feel Chaos should be higher, but even their own fluff betrays them. (See Codex: 5-man-squad-of-Silvery-1k-points).

DarkCorsair wrote:Well, all this quoting is getting tiresome...only specific thing in your post I would like to mention, is Necrons permanently dying. It seems, from my understanding, that they permenantly die under two scenarios:

1) The repair mechanisms in the Necron's body are destroyed.
2) A repair requires a phase out, but the phase out fails (likely due to destroyed mechanisms or faulty technology) and the Necron subsequently burns up.

But to sum up my argument:
Necrons are indeed a powerful race, but not more so than the Imperium, the Orks, or the Tyranids. They are at #4.

From fluff examples, when has either happened? Necrons have literally been melted to puddles and reformed, so I don't think that the technology in their bodies are really ever a weak spot and in no example that I've ever read has phase out not worked, ever. There are all kinds of stories detailing the brutal punishment Necron bodies can take, but never has one ever failed to phase out before

From what I understand, they only "phase out" When their bodies cannot repair themselves via their onboard systems. Then they return to their tombs, where they are repaired by more sophisticated equipment, to be later deployed once more.

Azure wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:Well, all this quoting is getting tiresome...only specific thing in your post I would like to mention, is Necrons permanently dying. It seems, from my understanding, that they permenantly die under two scenarios:

1) The repair mechanisms in the Necron's body are destroyed.
2) A repair requires a phase out, but the phase out fails (likely due to destroyed mechanisms or faulty technology) and the Necron subsequently burns up.

But to sum up my argument:
Necrons are indeed a powerful race, but not more so than the Imperium, the Orks, or the Tyranids. They are at #4.

From fluff examples, when has either happened? Necrons have literally been melted to puddles and reformed, so I don't think that the technology in their bodies are really ever a weak spot and in no example that I've ever read has phase out not worked, ever. There are all kinds of stories detailing the brutal punishment Necron bodies can take, but never has one ever failed to phase out before

Fall of Damnos actually does have a point where they stop phase out on a single Warrior. I forget how or why, but I remember it happening. Read that in like September.

Azure wrote:
From fluff examples, when has either happened? Necrons have literally been melted to puddles and reformed, so I don't think that the technology in their bodies are really ever a weak spot and in no example that I've ever read has phase out not worked, ever. There are all kinds of stories detailing the brutal punishment Necron bodies can take, but never has one ever failed to phase out before

"Should a fallen warrior fail to phase out, it self-destructs and is consumed by a blaze of emerald light." p.5 of the codex

iGuy91 wrote:Thats just called plot armor and being the chosen chapter of our Spiritual Leige, Matt Ward

The Hive Fleets have wiped out several space marine chapters

"Several space marine chapters" represents like... what? .05% of the Imperium's total military capability? Conversely, the Tyranids have lost at least 50% of their forces in the Galaxy, if you add up all the hive fleets and splinter fleets.

If the Imperium formed all of the SM chapters it has, and all the regiments it has at its disposal, and all the navy ships it has into one massive battlegroup, and confronted the Tyranids, the 'Nids would get steamrolled. And that's even if all the Hive Fleets were merged into one giant hive fleet.

Who said Ghazzy was RUNNING from Armeggedon? He set up an endless war on the Prime planet and manages still to this day according to the codex to conquer and ravage the remaining planets in the system. He's da biggest and da best. Da Prophet of Da Waaagh.

Anywho, I'd rank it like so....

1 - 8. Orks

9. Everyone else.

In all seriousness, I agree with the OP's list.

1. IoM - if and only if Imperium Psyker-wide instances occur - each Psyker (assuming they believe in Mankind) can annhilate Systems - extrapoltating fluff here.
2. Orks - As numerous as the Imperium (if not more), despite recent fluff they can take any system they so desire. Orks draw Orks. No real answer to their attacks,even if they are random.
3. Tyranids - Weak compared to other races imo but the potential is unrivalled, going outside the box, they are quite possibly the only race/entity left outside the known Galaxy.
4. Daemons - possibly ranked #1 if enough human psykers can be corrupted/possesed. 1000000+ Daemons on every Human based World? Death?
5. Chaos Legions - Any sort of co ordinated attack by every single Traitor Legion would mean the Imperium stretched to its very core, possibly over riden. Anyone that rates the current Traitor fluff/abilities needs to take an objective looksee.

I know Eldar, DE, Tau and Crons but its late here so, YMMV.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Azure wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:Well, all this quoting is getting tiresome...only specific thing in your post I would like to mention, is Necrons permanently dying. It seems, from my understanding, that they permenantly die under two scenarios:

1) The repair mechanisms in the Necron's body are destroyed.
2) A repair requires a phase out, but the phase out fails (likely due to destroyed mechanisms or faulty technology) and the Necron subsequently burns up.

But to sum up my argument:
Necrons are indeed a powerful race, but not more so than the Imperium, the Orks, or the Tyranids. They are at #4.

From fluff examples, when has either happened? Necrons have literally been melted to puddles and reformed, so I don't think that the technology in their bodies are really ever a weak spot and in no example that I've ever read has phase out not worked, ever. There are all kinds of stories detailing the brutal punishment Necron bodies can take, but never has one ever failed to phase out before

Fall of Damnos actually does have a point where they stop phase out on a single Warrior. I forget how or why, but I remember it happening. Read that in like September.

You're right, it was a warrior trapped in a magnetic field set up by other Necrons for unknown reasons, so I suppose there is that. But that remains the only instance that I can recall of such a thing happening, and it was done by Necrons.

Necron Codex wrote:Should a fallen warrior fail to phase out, it self-destructs and is consumed by a blaze of emerald light.

While the quote says that, there still has never been an example of it actually occurring. Should it occur, then we would know what can actually stop phase out, besides magnets apparently @..@ how do they work?

While the quote says that, there still has never been an example of it actually occurring. Should it occur, then we would know what can actually stop phase out, besides magnets apparently @..@ how do they work?

Miracles man, miracles

I just want to mention the World Engine for those that still question the Necron naval capacity. It's probably the strongest ship in the fiction. Just saiyan is all.

Also there's the time travelling planet/fortress thingy which may or may not be a ship.

riplikash wrote:
"A broadside from the battle barge Sigismund strips away the Conqueror's shields an instant before the Black Templars' boarding torpedoes strike home and, within moments, the decks of the Inevitable Conqueror are swarming with vengeful Space Marines."

Not seeing where it says 'only one battle barge engaged Imotech's ship'.

You just quoted that , only one ship was named attacking Imotech's capital ship. The fire from Battle Barge tear down it's shields and assault pods brough Space Marines into it.

BlaxicanX wrote:If the IoM was somehow able to focus all of its power on just the tyranids, they would exterminate the space bugs utterly in a couple decades at the most.

iGuy91 wrote:The imperium has to be number one, they have the largest military and production capacity, and can bring untold billions of soldiers into battle. They would crush any single one of the other factions in Empire on Empire combat.The only reason they are in decline, is that everyone and their uncle is ganging up on them.

That's exactly my reasoning too.

The IoM's greatest strength is actually its greatest weakness. because they rule over such a massive part of the galaxy, the IoM can call upon an unimaginably vast amount of manpower and military hardware. There's a phrase that comes up repeatedly in the fluff to describe the IoM's war machine. It is a vast and lumbering behemoth, slow to react, but utterly impossible to stop or defeat once a critical momentum has been reached.
However, because it is so vast, it fights all the other major powers in the galaxy continuously, thus dividing its strength.

Many people point out that it is said that "if orks would ever unite, they would conquer the galaxy in a matter of years". Well, the same can pretty much be said about the IoM.

Let me put it this way, if we could assemble the entire military might of the IoM - down to the last tank, PDF trooper and lasgun/flashlight - and throw it at any major race in the galaxy; how long do you think it would take for the IoM to emerge victorious?
The IoM would be able to crush hive-fleets wholesale in a matter of days or scourge the EoT in a month... if only it could be given enough time and space to do it.

Brother Coa wrote:

riplikash wrote:
"A broadside from the battle barge Sigismund strips away the Conqueror's shields an instant before the Black Templars' boarding torpedoes strike home and, within moments, the decks of the Inevitable Conqueror are swarming with vengeful Space Marines."

Not seeing where it says 'only one battle barge engaged Imotech's ship'.

You just quoted that , only one ship was named attacking Imotech's capital ship. The fire from Battle Barge tear down it's shields and assault pods brough Space Marines into it.

The quote has even been posted in the thread, an entire fleet attacked, it only discussed the one ship's barrage because that's the one that broke the shields

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Note: it wasnt just civil war that cause the fall of rome. It was a multitude of factors, like a shift from urban to rural, cost of mantaining the empire, and the decline of the roman army. Which is interesting because you can see alot of simularities to the IoM, and makes me wonder if thats the direction GW is taking it.

That is true, and I do admit that I may have simplified the causes a bit. However, the civil wars were a significant factor in the empire's downfall.

Laodamia wrote:
The IoM's greatest strength is actually its greatest weakness. because they rule over such a massive part of the galaxy, the IoM can call upon an unimaginably vast amount of manpower and military hardware. There's a phrase that comes up repeatedly in the fluff to describe the IoM's war machine. It is a vast and lumbering behemoth, slow to react, but utterly impossible to stop or defeat once a critical momentum has been reached.
However, because it is so vast, it fights all the other major powers in the galaxy continuously, thus dividing its strength.

Many people point out that it is said that "if orks would ever unite, they would conquer the galaxy in a matter of years". Well, the same can pretty much be said about the IoM.

Let me put it this way, if we could assemble the entire military might of the IoM - down to the last tank, PDF trooper and lasgun/flashlight - and throw it at any major race in the galaxy; how long do you think it would take for the IoM to emerge victorious?
The IoM would be able to crush hive-fleets wholesale in a matter of days or scourge the EoT in a month... if only it could be given enough time and space to do it.

Essentially what I said. So the Imperium has to be number one. And that's all just on paper. Consider the human psyche and the things that can be done by a lone human with a profound sense of motivation, determination, and faith. Throw in a little courage and you've got an extremely dangerous killer on your hands.

The human variable- the unknowable, unforseable actions that one may take in pursuit of duty- is something that the Necron cannot physically utilize. That is what puts the Imperium above the Necron for me.

DarkCorsair wrote:

So! That's it for the list. Agree? Disagree?

Disagree?

1. Chaos
2. Imperium
3. Orks
4. Tau
5. Necrons
6. Eldar
7. Dark Eldar
8. Tyranids

1. Chaos: Corruption can work against (through?) any other force, turning their advantages, numbers, organisation, whatever against them.
2. Imperium: Still the "big kid" on the block. May well switch places with Chaos. Really is a debate on how much chaos corruption pervades the IoM or the IoM stands firm against it.
3. Orks: They may have numbers, but lack the organisation. Numbers don't mean everything. China isn't the most powerful army on Earth either, just because it is the most numerious.
4. Tau. Don't have the numbers, but have the organisation (even more so than the Imperium). Also, they fasted adapting (yes, alot faster than Tyranids.. say Hive Fleet Gorgon).
5. Necrons. Allegedly the best technology and the least problems with moral (hence I put it there). Can be debated up or down alot depending now how you weight these advantages.
6. Eldar. Good warriors, but stuck in stagnant ways. Like traditional Samurai going against Gatling Guns. Noone doubts their prowess, but they are past their time.
7. Dark Eldar. The Somali Pirates of the 40K universe. If push comes to shove, they'd be a goner.
8. Tyrandis. About a dozend or so Hive Fleets are known. None have proven a threat at a level higher than a single Space Marine Chapter. The entire race is a smaller threat than, say, the Badab War on the scale of things we have seen so far.

Note on Tyranids: Judging a Race on "what may come" is a biased, skewed comparison. If you assess the threat-level of Nids on some allegedly later arriving Fleets, you would also need to assess the threat-level of the other races on the "worst-possible-scenario"-hypotheses they offre: e.g. Orks all uniting under a single Waagh, the Emperor reborn and the lost Primarchs returned, the Necron at once back to the power they had challenging the Old Ones, etc..,etc.. . Otherwise, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Zweischneid wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:

So! That's it for the list. Agree? Disagree?

Disagree?

1. Chaos
2. Imperium
3. Orks
4. Tau
5. Necrons
6. Eldar
7. Dark Eldar
8. Tyranids

1. Chaos: Corruption can work against (through?) any other force, turning their advantages, numbers, organisation, whatever against them.
2. Imperium: Still the "big kid" on the block. May well switch places with Chaos. Really is a debate on how much chaos corruption pervades the IoM or the IoM stands firm against it.
3. Orks: They may have numbers, but lack the organisation. Numbers don't mean everything. China isn't the most powerful army on Earth either, just because it is the most numerious.
4. Tau. Don't have the numbers, but have the organisation (even more so than the Imperium). Also, they fasted adapting (yes, alot faster than Tyranids.. say Hive Fleet Gorgon).
5. Necrons. Allegedly the best technology and the least problems with moral (hence I put it there). Can be debated up or down alot depending now how you weight these advantages.
6. Eldar. Good warriors, but stuck in stagnant ways. Like traditional Samurai going against Gatling Guns. Noone doubts their prowess, but they are past their time.
7. Dark Eldar. The Somali Pirates of the 40K universe. If push comes to shove, they'd be a goner.
8. Tyrandis. About a dozend or so Hive Fleets are known. None have proven a threat at a level higher than a single Space Marine Chapter. The entire race is a smaller threat than, say, the Badab War on the scale of things we have seen so far.

Note on Tyranids: Judging a Race on "what may come" is a biased, skewed comparison. If you assess the threat-level of Nids on some allegedly later arriving Fleets, you would also need to assess the threat-level of the other races on the "worst-possible-scenario"-hypotheses they offre: e.g. Orks all uniting under a single Waagh, the Emperor reborn and the lost Primarchs returned, the Necron at once back to the power they had challenging the Old Ones, etc..,etc.. . Otherwise, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Chaos can't corrupt Tyranids or Orks, and the majority of their legions are currently being held back by a single human world, they are certainly not #1. They don't have the capability right now to take on any of the major factions, even Tau.
Orks are organised together fairly well enough into their own clans or tribes, its just that those clans and tribes aren't all united. They are still plenty powerful enough.
Tau at #4?
Note on Dark Eldar: if push comes to shove, they hide in the Webway then show up and take out the enemies supply lines, then disappear. Ultimate trolls of the 40k universe.
Tyranids: I invite you to take a look at this map:

Just look at Behemoth alone. Thats a lot of ships and a lot of completely fearless troops inside of them. Oh, and when they take on a world, more of them are made from the biomass.

Edit: I also strongly agree with the human element being a factor, but I think that also applies to Tau and Orks.

Zweischneid wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:

So! That's it for the list. Agree? Disagree?

Disagree?

1. Chaos
2. Imperium
3. Orks
4. Tau
5. Necrons
6. Eldar
7. Dark Eldar
8. Tyranids

1. Chaos: Corruption can work against (through?) any other force, turning their advantages, numbers, organisation, whatever against them.
2. Imperium: Still the "big kid" on the block. May well switch places with Chaos. Really is a debate on how much chaos corruption pervades the IoM or the IoM stands firm against it.
3. Orks: They may have numbers, but lack the organisation. Numbers don't mean everything. China isn't the most powerful army on Earth either, just because it is the most numerious.
4. Tau. Don't have the numbers, but have the organisation (even more so than the Imperium). Also, they fasted adapting (yes, alot faster than Tyranids.. say Hive Fleet Gorgon).
5. Necrons. Allegedly the best technology and the least problems with moral (hence I put it there). Can be debated up or down alot depending now how you weight these advantages.
6. Eldar. Good warriors, but stuck in stagnant ways. Like traditional Samurai going against Gatling Guns. Noone doubts their prowess, but they are past their time.
7. Dark Eldar. The Somali Pirates of the 40K universe. If push comes to shove, they'd be a goner.
8. Tyrandis. About a dozend or so Hive Fleets are known. None have proven a threat at a level higher than a single Space Marine Chapter. The entire race is a smaller threat than, say, the Badab War on the scale of things we have seen so far.

Note on Tyranids: Judging a Race on "what may come" is a biased, skewed comparison. If you assess the threat-level of Nids on some allegedly later arriving Fleets, you would also need to assess the threat-level of the other races on the "worst-possible-scenario"-hypotheses they offre: e.g. Orks all uniting under a single Waagh, the Emperor reborn and the lost Primarchs returned, the Necron at once back to the power they had challenging the Old Ones, etc..,etc.. . Otherwise, you are comparing apples and oranges.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning on many of these. Chaos at one implies that a large chaos incursion would defeat the Imperium, which it simply isn't. It took Abaddon 13 crusades just to achieve a foothold on Cadia and stalemate. That's one world. Granted they did take out numerous other non vital worlds, but a single fortress world can stop the Chaos Legions (with lots of help) 12 out of 13 times.

Imperial Truth and belief in the God Emperor is enough for multiple billions of guardsmen to stand firm against Chaos, so I don't really see where you are coming from here. There are not many areas that Chaos is better than the Imperium, and the most significant ones are firmly on lockdown by the Imperium. (numbers, manufacturing power, organization, ect.)

Glad to see the Imperium above the Orks.

Tau. Really? You do realize that the Tau's 100 or so worlds is small and insignificant in the grand scheme of things to the Imperium correct? The Tau "Empire" is about 1/1000 the size of the Imperium. And size's benefits are exponential. Tau couldn't beat any of the main factions in one on one combat. GW put them in not because they are major players in the Galaxy, but to represent the existance of xenos empires inside the galaxy. That there are other sentient beings living inside of the vast Imperial Empire.

Necrons are at number 2. Hands down. Not 5. As has been discussed here, there are many billions of Necrons. Many billions of fearless self regenerating warriors, commanded by cold utilitarian commanders who run complicated algarithims to determine what actions to take strategically makes them a fearful force that could rule the galaxy once again.

Fair representation of the Eldar, but arguably have the second best technology, and every Eldar having psychic abilitites doesn't hurt either. And they may be dying, but they do have millions of soldiers of course. Also, I don't think there is a race other than the Imperium that has impacted the way the galaxy is now more than the Eldar.

Dark Eldar have a HUGE amount of soldiers believe it or not. The Eldar may be dying, but the Dark Eldar are alive and well. Being able to hide in the webway unfearful of retaliation for their shinanigans. Also, during the 13 Black Crusade a large Dark Eldar incursion around Cadia has drawn out multiple Imperial Regiments and a couple Space Marine Chapters, most notably the Dark Angels, to deal with them. I believe that resulted in a stalemate.

Tyranids. Last? What? One hive fleet being defeated by the Ultramarines- luckily mind you. And with that much plot armor it's impossible to lose. If it were the Raven Guard or Salamanders you know the outcome would have been different. Two other Hive Fleets were defeated by the Eldar of Iyanden, perhaps a testament to the Eldars inginuity rather than the Tyranids incapabilities. The tyranids are still more powerful than the Tau at least.

My list:

1. Imperium
2. Necrons
3. Orks
4. Dark Eldar
5. Chaos
6. Tyranids
7. Eldar
8. Tau

Chaos can corrupt orks, and has shown that is could turn a great many of them to Nurgle, though getting them to worship slaanesh or Tzeentch would be difficult I think. Regardless, the legions of chaos are only held back because there are several chapters and billions of guardsmen all devoted to doing nothing more then stop whatever fleet tries to leave the Eye of Terror, a fleet that usually is going to be rather small as the legions do not, by any stretch of the imagination, get along. I think once a black crusade finally gets them out of the Eye we'll be able to see their true power, as it'll be exerted against the rest of the galaxy, and not just each other