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This is good. Appreciate the alternative list, too, I'm playing with a friend who's running GK for me, but I'm really ninja-training to play another buddy at work who's pretty darn good.

And I think GK is a bit overpowered. But that's just me.

Lukus83 wrote:If you want advice on building a solid themed army you could do much worse than looking at Junks recent threads about certain builds. Jy2 also has a very competitive build in the form of MTO necrons. Now that people are having time to get used to the codex the current power lists out there are:

- scarab farm
- walking silver tide with AV13 support
- MTO necrons
- scythe spam
- anything with lots of wraiths in the fast slot.

The last point is completely serious. Wraiths are the stars of our codex able to fill any role you want them to due to their inv. save, high S, high movement as well as quality and quantity of attacks.

my favorate is hiding advancing through buildings and hiding behind walls and just poping out thanks to wraith flight.

Randall Turner wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...You just contradicted your own argument there.
Since when did games continue for 10 turns?

Good luck with the scarabs though. I was expecting them to all die due to plasma and las from the razorbacks.

Are you trolling? I contradicted myself exactly how? Have you never looked at the end of the game and said, "if I had another three/four turns I'd win this"?

No, I am not trolling.
The TA missing is a contradiction to your claim that the arrow is completely worth its points, and should always be taken if possible. That's 30 points wasted right there.
Besides, I think there were some tactical errors on the GK player's part. Don't SR have PotMS, which enables it to fire a weapon after moving flat out? I recall a BA player doing that against me.
He should have moved flat out, fragged the scarabs with PotMS (if possible, if not just wait a turn and hope for the best), or concentrate fire on the DL and wraiths.
My point here is that if he were a bit more daring, then the outcome of the game would have been a lot more different.

No, I do not think "if I had another three/four turns I'd win this"; I look at the tactics I used and try to improve them. I find that to be a lot more productive than hoping for turns.

If you look up about 3-4 posts, I've already outlined the GK Stormraven's capabilities. Including PotMS. If he were moving at combat or cruising speed, he could fire all weapons. (AC, HB, MM's.) When he's moving flat-out, he can only shoot one of the AC or HB - he'll pick AC. [Edit: it usually takes about 3 turns to get my CC dudes up to assault range. HB ROF is 3 == 9 shots he could have taken.] By giving up the HB shots, he's giving up 9 pops at our scarabs, or (avg) 6 bases destroyed. That's 90 points of critters. Does that help?

If you're suggesting he move at cruising speed and fire all weapons early at wraiths or scarabs, he's taking a 37% chance he'll get shot down and lose the game right there. My numbers assume he's not silly enough to do that in the TA's field of fire, odds go up to 50% that we'll at least knock one of his weapons out (and yes, we'll pick the AC) and emasculate the Stormraven's fire support capability. You may think this is a good risk/return ratio, it's obviously not.

The guy I originally played and am training for is an ex-GDW employee, I don't think you're in his league.

The characterization of evaluating what would happen if the game continued as "hoping for more turns" is just reading comprehension issues. You can squeak out or hang on for a draw, or you can be on the other side - an indication whether your list is competitive or not. I think you understand that.

Randall Turner wrote:If you look up about 3-4 posts, I've already outlined the GK Stormraven's capabilities. Including PotMS. If he were moving at combat or cruising speed, he could fire all weapons. (AC, HB, MM's.) When he's moving flat-out, he can only shoot one of the AC or HB - he'll pick AC. [Edit: it usually takes about 3 turns to get my CC dudes up to assault range. HB ROF is 3 == 9 shots he could have taken.] By giving up the HB shots, he's giving up 9 pops at our scarabs, or (avg) 6 bases destroyed. That's 90 points of critters. Does that help?

If you're suggesting he move at cruising speed and fire all weapons early at wraiths or scarabs, he's taking a 37% chance he'll get shot down and lose the game right there. My numbers assume he's not silly enough to do that in the TA's field of fire, odds go up to 50% that we'll at least knock one of his weapons out (and yes, we'll pick the AC) and emasculate the Stormraven's fire support capability. You may think this is a good risk/return ratio, it's obviously not.

The guy I originally played and am training for is an ex-GDW employee, I don't think you're in his league.

The characterization of evaluating what would happen if the game continued as "hoping for more turns" is just reading comprehension issues. You can squeak out or hang on for a draw, or you can be on the other side - an indication whether your list is competitive or not. I think you understand that.

Hmm Yes, you have a point there.
Why would he pick the assault cannon though if the HB does more damage?

oh - i don't know, asking...

[later] - offs, we were playing that thing as an autocannon, not an assault cannon. son of a...

Well, that was my other buddy, ie, my training partner. I was trusting him to read the codex, but he's not a GK player. The ex-GDW guy isn't going to make that mistake. But you're right, on a weapon hit we should take the HB.

[Edit: hey, I have some wraiths that didn't get saving throws! dammit...]

How did this become a gk thread when it says how to play necron?

^This. Back on topic please. We get that some of you think TA is AWSOME-SAUCE and some dont; but the OP was wanting tips/tricks and advice. Not heated arguement.

Are you trolling? I contradicted myself exactly how? Have you never looked at the end of the game and said, "if I had another three/four turns I'd win this"?

3 or 4? No. Part of the game is planning for random game length. It's usually a pretty safe bet there will be a sixth turn. I'm not going to think to myself if I had a 9th or 10th turn I could have won, that's unproductive.

I don't think we can beat that army w/o cover. period. You want to throw up a 750 point try, take a shot. I'd like to see what your alternative list is, if it looks promising I'll steal it.

As before, the game really isn't balanced at less than 1500. Some armies have a distinct advantage over others.

got the odds exactly right, partner.

If a "shaken" result was enough to dissuade a GK Stormraven, I'd depend on Gauss fire (more). You do understand that a GK ship only has a 1/12th chance to suffer stun/shaken results, right? Ignores on 10+ ld roll. (Just like their other heavy vehicles and dreadnoughts.) Shaken is worthless. (well, against GK anyway.)

Are we going to talk about GK, or a Take all comers Standard? Because for a TAC, Shaking is sometimes all you need. I also did add the Keyword "Sometimes" in there as well. GK are the exception to this, not the rule.

If I could keep a tek within range of my scarab units, I'd consider using them for fire cover. You do understand that the Mindstrike missiles have a 72" range, 48" for their LT AC, 36" for their TL HB? You often can't even stay close enough to a closing scarab unit to keep him out of HB range. Don't have to worry about range with an arrow.

36' is plenty of range for most games. When you have 4 sets of 2, in your squads covering the board, you should have lances all over the board. Depending on the deployment, you can stick them up to 12' forward, giving you plenty of range.

Disregarding range: Do you not understand why three shots from a tek aren't as good as one from an arrow? ie, given exactly the same percentage chance of success, the target will get to fire additional shots?

Do you not understand why one shot from an Arrow, is not as good as 5-7 shots from a lanceTek?

The Target does not always get to fire additional shots. As I said before, from a TAC Shaking is sometimes all you need. Necrons have other methods of Anti-tank as well. You also can have 1-2 turns of nightfight, which can stop the enemy army from getting their shots off as well.

I don't know how you class the teks as "safer" than an Overlord's typical disposition, both can be attached, both can be in separate units, and while the Overlord may act independently more often you don't have to keep him alive for six turns. (though that's the plan.) Flat-out with a CCB, sure, sometimes, but if a game winning shot presents itself, you don't take it, it's on you - no need to speculate why I'm having good results.

Teks can't be picked out in close combat, was the point I was making.

The problem with this discussion is that you have to give the points I make, guys. I'm stipulating to your points, and identifying the circumstances where one approach is better than another. But a lot of what you're saying in this thread are half-truths, not reasoned discussion. More integrity, please.

Excuse me? I'm not giving any half truths, I'm addressing your points 1 by 1, and explaining my reasoning behind them. I don't know what your problem is here, but you are in no position to question my integrity or that of anyone here. This kind of personal insult to me or anyone, is unacceptable, and against the rules.

Sasori wrote:Excuse me? I'm not giving any half truths, I'm addressing your points 1 by 1, and explaining my reasoning behind them. I don't know what your problem is here, but you are in no position to question my integrity or that of anyone here. This kind of personal insult to me or anyone, is unacceptable, and against the rules.

This...

Sasori wrote:Which is fairly significant. Of course, it's double the cost of a single Arrow, but these can continue to fire the entire game. Over the course of 6 turns, they have done the work of 3 Tachyon arrows, which means that Lanceteks provide better value points-wise than a Tachyon arrow. These are also on platforms that you can't pick out in shooting or close combat.

...is not strictly true. It needs qualifiers. The opportunity costs of lanceteks are the loss of other teks (though they're very good, particularly the first w/a pulse), the lost turns due to out-of-range targets (typically enemy support units, ala our Stormraven example as well as long range arty/lascannon types), the lost turns due to CC (because the tek is applying it's fire effect over the entire length of the game, while a Tachyon Arrow is virtually guaranteed to get its 1 shot off - difficult to quantify, but certainly an advantage.) then...

Sasori wrote:36' is plenty of range for most games.

But infinite is better, in some difficult-to-quantify amount, right?

Sasori wrote:The Target does not always get to fire additional shots.

You're not stipulating that the TA has an advantage due to immediate impact, which you should do, if we're having an honest discussion. "The target doesn't always get more shots" is in the same vein as "I missed with my arrow" - on average, b/c the tek effect is applied over time, there will be more return fire. It's not a gray area.

I'm not taking these out of context, I'm just explaining why I feel like when you reply to my "hey, these arrows work!" posts, you're not being even-handed. On 2-3 different threads now, partner. After a certain point I'm less inclined to put up with the arrogance - and that point is after setting up test-case battles and running numbers proving to myself they are a good deal, depending on circumstances, but in general - yep.

Can I be caustic too? Better believe it, sorry about that. Let's take a deep breath and start over. I want to explore a new "model" for a necron army, and I want it to scale (at least 1500), I want your input.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hmm, that wasn't quite as conciliatory as I'd intended it to be. replace "arrogant" with "dismissive".

..is not strictly true. It needs qualifiers. The opportunity costs of lanceteks are the loss of other teks (though they're very good, particularly the first w/a pulse), the lost turns due to out-of-range targets (typically enemy support units, ala our Stormraven example as well as long range arty/lascannon types), the lost turns due to CC (because the tek is applying it's fire effect over the entire length of the game, while a Tachyon Arrow is virtually guaranteed to get its 1 shot off - difficult to quantify, but certainly an advantage.) then...

So, you're saying that I need to add an Addendum to every post, stating the obvious? I posted what lanceteks CAN do over a game, just like I posted the percentage of what a Tachyon arrow CAN do. It's a game of dice and tactics, nothing is ever guaranteed.This is an understood thing.

Lanceteks are generally the best choice, as far TAC choices go for the Crypteks. The reason, is because they can preform multiple roles. The other crypteks have their uses, but generally require a more specific type of unit, to function to maximum potential. I don't consider the loss of other teks an issue.

Most of the issues you are talking about here, such as teks getting into combat, become a mistake on your part. I've only had that happen once, and it was a mistake on my part as far as deployment goes. As far as long range vehicles go, this is another deployment issue, and is totally up to the circumstances. Needless to say, If your Lanceteks are not firing, it's most likely going to be a mistake on your part.

But infinite is better, in some difficult-to-quantify amount, right?

At what point did I say that infinite range is not better?

ou're not stipulating that the TA has an advantage due to immediate impact, which you should do, if we're having an honest discussion.

Why do I need to say this? The Eldritch lances can have an advantage with an immediate impact, and so can CCBS, and a numerous amount of things in every codex. This doesn't need to be said.

"The target doesn't always get more shots" is in the same vein as "I missed with my arrow" - on average, b/c the Tek effect is applied over time, there will be more return fire. It's not a gray area.

No, it's not, because the arrow is still a single shot. You can also still hit with your arrow, and only shake a vehicle as well. The Tek is also not just a weapon, it can be a scoring unit, as well as having a ranged impact over the game.

I'm not taking these out of context, I'm just explaining why I feel like when you reply to my "hey, these arrows work!" posts, you're not being even-handed. On 2-3 different threads now, partner. After a certain point I'm less inclined to put up with the arrogance - and that point is after setting up test-case battles and running numbers proving to myself they are a good deal, depending on circumstances, but in general - yep.

Look, it sounds like the only experience you have is playing some low-point games and running math and theory hammer. Then, you try to come in, and talk about how your tiny bit of experience, and math suddenly makes the Tachyon arrow worth it? In the course of discussion you also try to pull your engineer credentials and tell another poster how he is not in league with one of your friends because he is a former GDW employee, as if this has any impact on the discussion, and you are calling me arrogant?

I've played several games at various point values, and the Tachyon Arrow by itself doesn't seem worth it.

With a Chronometron or maybe shooting in tandem with a Triarch Stalker the Arrow gets better, but I'll back Sasori up in saying that there's probably better ways to spend those points.

Also, a squad of Lanceteks with Tank Hunters is pretty brutal if you're looking for some Anti-Tank.

Let's ignore probability for a moment and just examine potential value:

1x Tachyon Arrow: can destroy up to 1 vehicle per game.
1x Lancetek: can destroy up to 1 vehicle per turn.

Let's look at probability again. Now, if we are attempting to use this wargear in a TAC list, then we should use the single most common type of vehicle: the Rhino (or Razorback), which is AV 11.

Tachyon Arrow= 67% chance to hit, 83% chance to pen, 50% chance to wreck = mission accomplished 27.8% of the time. One shot only per game.
Lancetek = 67% chance to hit, 50% chance to pen, 33% chance to wreck = mission accomplished 11% of the time, each turn. Six turns = 66% chance.

Even if 6 turns is essentially useless if that's how long it takes you to eliminate a Rhino, the Lancetek is better at killing transports after 3 turns. But I don't like using either option solo; I like to use Chronoteks as well. A Chronotek will bolster the odds of both subjects eliminating a transport considerably. However, after the one-shot-only Tachyon Arrow has killed a single transport, the Lancetek can set his sights on additional transports. Again, this lends the advantage to the Lancetek.

Then we have to examine the secondary elements:
-The Lancetek is another model on the table, whereas the Tachyon Arrow is not. That means the former can contest (or control if in a Troops unit) an objective, whereas the Tachyon Arrow cannot.
-The Lancetek is useful for shooting several types of targets (Terminators, etc.) whereas the Tachyon Arrow is an inefficient use of points if it fires at anything except a vehicle, or a very expensive model with no invulnerable save that is either single-wound or else can be ID'd (no such model comes to mind).
-Range in excess of 36" is usually pointless due to the 5th Ed. rules regarding LOS and cover saves.

The fact of the matter is that the only time the Tachyon Arrow is a better choice than the Lancetek is when you're dealing with AV 14, and you have at least one Chronotek. However, in that circumstance I think you'd be better off taking a Heavy Destroyer.

Sasori wrote:Look, it sounds like the only experience you have is playing some low-point games and running math and theory hammer. Then, you try to come in, and talk about how your tiny bit of experience, and math suddenly makes the Tachyon arrow worth it? In the course of discussion you also try to pull your engineer credentials and tell another poster how he is not in league with one of your friends because he is a former GDW employee, as if this has any impact on the discussion, and you are calling me arrogant?

Don't you get that this is the problem? You're dismissing the favorable points b/c of the source - you're noob-bashing. We're going to go around, you and I, if you keep it up.

And, you're missing the point in a couple places. Too many misconceptions in this latest post to correct, I'm giving up on you. But at the end of the day, I think you might be being dismissive b/c you don't actually want to understand the weapon (or the equivalent Hunter-Killer missiles for Rhinos, etc.) That it's appropriate for us is a reflection of our list's weakness in ranged AT, and that's not comfortable for necron players to think about. Or I don't know, perhaps you're typically on boards with more terrain or a different typical set of opponents, it all factors in.

The attempt to substitute teks for AT is faulty logic, it's not an either/or thing, they give us different capabilities and they complement each other. (Certainly using the solar pulse coupled with ANY long range fire has synergy in an alpha-strike sense.) It comes down to a question of how much long range fire it's worth buying.

It doesn't matter. We don't have to agree. I don't have a problem with it.

This...

Sasori wrote:...and tell another poster how he is not in league with one of your friends because he is a former GDW employee...

... is in response to Cthulus telling me my GK opponent wasn't playing correctly. HIGHLY unlikely. If I tell you why, you're going to take it as "arrogance" and appeal to authority, as well as being an invasion of his privacy. But it's his job to know the codecs. Still. He gets paid for it. Still. Sorry, but that matters. Anyone can make a mistake, of course, but it's not the go-to explanation in this case.

Have a good day.

azazel the cat wrote:
-The Lancetek is useful for shooting several types of targets (Terminators, etc.) whereas the Tachyon Arrow is an inefficient use of points if it fires at anything except a vehicle, or a very expensive model with no invulnerable save that is either single-wound or else can be ID'd (no such model comes to mind).
.

Harpy. T5, with several wounds. I actually did that; Man did it piss the nid player off.

Other than that, all true. Very good analysis.

Thank you.

Good call on the Harpy. And now that I think about it, TWC & TWC lords are great targets if they don't have SS or Saga of the Bear. (which will never happen)

azazel the cat wrote:Thank you.

Good call on the Harpy. And now that I think about it, TWC & TWC lords are great targets if they don't have SS or Saga of the Bear. (which will never happen)

Yes...but not a very good counter though, is it? Well, ok against lords yes, but as they will most likely be in units the TA will do nothing but kill a 50 or so point model. Which is fine...but now you have a bunch more TWC on your tail, and nothing to one shot them. Well, there is target saturation...but really, I would rather have a lancetek who can potentially kill 2.5 TWC (over 5 turns) than a TA that could potentially kill 1 TWC.

I agree. Which means, -again- that the Lanceteks are more useful in that situation, too.

Even if a Tachyon Arrow takes down a Rhino, that is a disappointment to me. The Tachyon Arrow is 30 points; the Rhino 35. So I'll (maybe) get my points back, but that's just a waste, because now I've lost 30 points just to eliminate 35 points from my opponent. I would much rather have a Lancetek, that can destroy 35 points from my opponent again and again, and thus can be considered a combat multiplier, rather than a pyrrhic attrition tool like the Tachyon Arrow.

All this Lancetek vs. TA stuff brings to mind a commercial of tacos and a little girl...

Why can't we have both?

Because for the same price as the TA, you can have another Lancetek that can perform the same job, and so much more.

TwilightWalker wrote:All this Lancetek vs. TA stuff brings to mind a commercial of tacos and a little girl...

Why can't we have both?

<sigh> You can, and probably should. Azazel's examples are contrived - you're not going to waste a TA against a Rhino unless it's carrying a high-value passenger worth the 1/3rd chance of exploding. (ap1 == 5,6 explosion) You're also not going to find a lot of appropriate targets in a 'nid army, but that's the only one. By 1500-2000pts, everyone else is going to have their long-range AT and arty units - laspredators, basilisks, etc. or their equivalent.

His logic on chrono use is also just flat wrong. We want to use the chrono (if we have one) on our most powerful attack each turn. Saying that "the lanceteks will be around to use it later" is crowing about the fact you've got to waste three Tek chrono re-rolls to get the same benefit as one
TA chrono re-roll. That's just silly. It's wasting chrono capability. It's also sorta dodging the issue of only having one tek per court attach to a unit, so the chrono will have at most one lancetek shot he can assist per-turn. 'less they're sitting out by their lonesome, that won't last long.

Flip it around. You're a Necron player. We're fighting each other. You've a slew of AV13 vehicles, I tell you I have a 90% chance of killing one with a pair of arrows costing 60 points, no matter how far away they set up. (And that's about right, with chrono re-rolls.) rephrase:

You're going to lose a Doomsday Ark or a Triarch Stalker or a Ghost Ark, or have a 50/50 shot of losing your Monolith. Sound worth it to you?

Meanwhile, the lanceteks aren't in range - but when they DO get in range, our TA's have punched a hole in that quantum armor (at least) for 'em, and they've got the chrono free for their use b/c the TA's effect is concentrated in a few rolls. Most importantly, they're NOT eating Doomsday Ark s10 ap1 templates, b/c it's a slag heap on the hill. (Or lascannon rounds from whatever, etc.)

Basically, we both take the same army except you take 2xTA's while I take two extra lanceteks, you will eat my lunch because your long-range support will be firing from a hill while mine's a smoking wreck.

Bottom line is, lanceteks are missile launchers. Pricey missile launchers. Tachyon Arrows are something different. They're pricey too, ALL our long-range AT is pricey, that's our achilles heel - but they give us a different capability. In some circumstances, they're not as good. In most circumstances, which we can manipulate to bring about, they're at least comparable and sometimes better. At the end of the day they're a 60-point option for a 2000-point army, it's not a big deal - it's an option.

Three questions:

1. What is the maximum number of Tachyon Arrows that a Necron player can field?

2. What is the defining characteristic of 5th Ed. armies?

3. Why haven't you figured out that an item that can nominally destroy only a single vehicle is not particularly useful in a meta that revolves around spamming vehicles?


Now, let's point this out, as well: by pairing the Tachyon Arrow up with a Chronometron, you are basically saying that your Overlord is not riding a Catacomb Command Barge. In my opinion, this is foolishness of the highest degree, considering an Overlord w/ Warscythe in a CCB is widely considered to be one of the most effective threats the current Necron codex can deliver. So, you're not only saying that the Tachyon Arrow is better than a Lancetek, but you're saying that the Tachyon Arrow is just so good that you'd take it over a Lancetek AND you won't be using any Catacomb Command Barges, either.


EDIT: And you're overvaluing range. The table is 6' x 4', so unless your opponent deploys in the farthest possible corner of a spearhead deployment and you do the same, the Lancetek's 36" range will be easily enough to hit anything that you need it do. Considering the table should be about 25% terrain, it is highly unlikely that you will ever have clear LOS to something more than 36" away even with the Tachyon Arrow. Beause if your opponent can get a cover save on your Tachyon Arrow, its viability drops even lower.

Azazel, is your argument that because we can only take two, we shouldn't take any? And that destroying only one vehicle isn't desireable? I don't think that follows.

Is the boost to a TA's effectiveness enough to justify joining an Overlord (or two) to a troop unit (or two) temporarily? It depends on how that affects the army's synergy, but I wasn't considering it - I was establishing that that the arrows, in and of themselves, were effective. I've been reacting to others' posts re: Chrono re-roll in this thread, just as I've been reacting to either/or Lancetek comparisons - I didn't initiate the Chrono discussions, or go much further into Tek tactical implications than "we should use both".

If we can stay friendly, let's talk about it.

How is the best way to use an arrow with other fire sources? Frankly, I think it's as part of a Necron army model that uses an initial fire burst. Basically, we'd want to get as many turns of "free" fire on an opponent as possible, under cover of solar pulses if they've a long range capability. (This must be a standard tactic, right? AlphastrikeCrons or some such?) Dismount the Overlords for the initial shot, *if* it seems the Chrono re-roll is important enough, then remount them turn two. But don't make that inflexible doctrine, look at the circumstances.

Any army built to use this tactic will probably revolve around a Doomsday Ark backbone. (And if we could, we'd weld a Chronotek to the fender of an ark.) Aside from them, the Tachyon Arrows are our best really long range weaponry, and our best point AT attack, so I'd probably say "yes", we should consider dismounting the Overlords for a turn (moving to join a warrior/immortal/[whatever] unit) so they could potentially use the Chrono re-roll to assist their shot. It's safe, we'd be under night fighting rules after our turn, just don't get too close to the enemy in our first turn of movement. And if our opponent "hides" his stuffs, well, perhaps neither the Doomsday Arks or the TA's or anybody will have targets, it will depend.

But I don't think we absolutely must do that. Arrows are effective enough to justify buying them regardless, then adjust to circumstances. Likewise, if the first TA shot needs a Chrono re-roll assist, perhaps we should wait a turn before firing the second. Or buy two Chronoteks, along with our "N" lanceteks. Or just keep one of the TA shots in reserve, to discourage things like the Stormraven loitering. <shrug> Depends. But yes, I'd be inclined to fire both asap, given a typical target density for a 2000k army. Edit3: to be clear, that would imply dismounting the Overlords the first turn next to a unit w/attached Chronotek.

Ymmv.

Edit: regarding range - (long-ish, spoiler)

Coclusion: everybody has different playstyles, let the OP experiment. Personally have seen the TA fail with both triarch stalker and chronometron support a few times, so ive given up on it and have stuck to what i find most effective.

Typically i run the 20x blob of warriors with ghost ark support and a phaeron lord. I also have a second lord getting around on a barge.

For me personally, I don't see many scenarios where there is a high value target on the board turn 1 that is in los and not in cover. Delaying your shot any turns brings it more and more in line with any other not 1 use AT and my olords are too slow to get good los on anything anyway and barged olords + dlords just want to haul butt toward close combat as fast as they can, generally staying out of los as best as they and the wraith retinue are able. For me, the chance in a chance of hitting/penning/failing cover/damaging is not normally worth a points investment. It being a higher chance of doing that than pretty much anything else in the game doesn't acquit it of being a single use. 2 scarab bases or a tomb blade with a particle beamer or a warrior+immortal or a res orb or most any other 30point investment all give me consistent value in every game. Even when the gamble pays off it isn't like in the 750pt game stormraven example where the entire game hinges on that one shot, it's normally just 1 of 7 razorbacks my scarabs don't need to worry about anymore.


@cryage Let's talk about ghost arks. Do you consistently get to use the warrior repair function following around a warrior blob or does the ark just act as a big ablative armor 13 vehicle the opponent is compelled to shoot before they shoot the blob? With two ghost arks and a res orb the numbers get so crazy where the opponent needs to kill like 10 warriors just to get 1 reliable death and he needs to keep that up every turn until it's wiped out, I can't imagine anyone ever not killing them first.

yes, God, let's go onto other stuff.

I'd like to find out if others' experiences with Doomsday Arks are the same as mine. They aren't really working so well as pure stay-back-and-shoot units for me, they're longfang/lascannon magnets. I find if I push them up and play "rotate the fire arc" games sometimes they're better. Get them out of the overwatch positions, get them down in the dirt and let them die in a blaze of MAD glory. (ie, the gauss arrays are as effective as the doomsday cannon.)

Also draw some fire off yall's ghost arks.

@ Randall Turner: Apologies if I came across as unfriendly. I thought I was being friendly, but then, I am also quite naturally a jackass. Anyway.

I do understand your point about the Tachyone Arrow, but I personally believe there are only two circumstanes where I would ever consider it:

1. Anrakyr is my HQ choice. (He never is now that he can't use Mind in the Machine from aboard a CCB, but prior to that ruling, he was my default HQ) However, if I had the option to take him without the Tachyon Arrow and save 30 points, I would almost every time.

2. I am already maxed out on Crypteks and Wraiths, and still have 30 extra points.

My main problem is that it is one-use-only. Granted, the Solar Pulse is as well, however the Solar Pulse works every time I use it, whereas the Tachyon Arrow will miss 1/3 of the time, then will fail to pen a Rhino/Razorback 1/6 of the time, and will do nothing useful on the damage table 1/6 of the time after that. Add that up together and you will find that the Tachyon Arrow will be wasted 67% of the time. (And it does fail 2/3 of the time, because only one of those 3 rolls has to suck for the entire process to fall apart.) Whereas, with the Lanceteks, yes they will fail to do anything useful just as often, however I can keep trying.

The most perfect analogy I can use here is to explain that this is the exact reason why the revolver replaced the flintlock or wheel-lock pistol in 1818. Granted, the flintlocks would usually be a lead shot that was something crazy like the equivalent of a .50 cal cartirdge, whereas revolvers would rarely be larger than .40 cal. However, it was the rate of fire (1 vs 4+) that would make the difference. That is what we see with the Tachyon Arrow. Yes, it is a great big shot, that doesn't often hit its target, and doesn't get any second chances.


EDIT: Personally, I would almost never take a Doomsday Ark over 2x Annihilation Barges.

I don't think more then 1 solar pulse is worth it since there are so many short range/cc armies in tournament these days. Back when you couldnt win unless you beat at least 2 ig gunlines sure but not with the current meta espeacially if you have stormlord as your hq.

Wraiths are a must imo as is even a few scarab bases since they have garnered such a reputation online. The overlord in ccb is also a must since it can put serious pressure early on and save some fire from your slower moving stuff.

The ark to me seem hard to always be in a good spot outside of maybe spearhead.

Sasori wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:Totally agree, basing all my decisions on army composition on the theorycrafting in their threads. (with a "does it work for me" filter.)

Just sayin', if you're already taking a generic HQ unit, add the arrow. Esp. vs. BA's.

The Arrow is overpriced, unless you are in a unit with a Chronometron Cryptek. I can almost purchase a Wraith, for the price of the Arrow, and the Arrow has a 1/3rd chance to not to do anything.

Correct. On a per shot basis, as Randall Turner says, it looks good. Then you have to realize you get ONLY that one shot, while a Lancetek will shoot at least 3 times a game and possibly as many as 6.

CCB sweep attacks are pretty devastating. Now, if you ARE taking a Chrono, maybe because of the Stormlord, that Arrow immediately looks really damn good. Or if you have 30 points left over and nothing specific to do with it.

You have a 6/36 chance of missing, a 5/36 chance of failing to glance or pen on top of that, and then something like (math gets a bit hard here and I don't have my graphing calculator at hand) a 12/36 chance of failing to get a kill. And that's before cover saves.

In general, I think that:

2x Solar Pulses are must-takesfor a TAC list, particularly if there is a chance that you'll be playing against IG. If you play against a leaf blower list in a spearhead deployment, these two pulses are the only things preventing you from just giving up immediately after deployment.

2x Overlords w/ Warscythes on CCBs are also must-takes, just because of how cheap these option are for the amoung of threat they bring to the table.

Wraiths might be the greatest counter-charge unit in 40k, after TWC

Heavy Destroyers & Destroyers are much better than most people currently give them credit for.

Scarabs are overrated. maybe this is just because I always saw my scarabs being cooked by flamestorms, but I have not had good experiences with them.

5x Deathmarks & a Despairtek w/ VoD is one of the most lethal and useful units in the Necron codex.