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elrabin wrote:In any case, the definition of "obvious" vocabulary seems to cause a lot of rules "debates." In this case, it's the word "move." Many people in this thread seem to be taking "move" as a physical change of location of any unit (including turning for vehicles)*. However, using the definitions established within the document, it seems to me that a "move" is strictly when units move up to their movement value during the Movement Phase. Any other position changes (Pile-In, Fall Back, Deep Strike, Disembark, etc.) is not a "move", though these actions may cause the unit to count as moving.

Pile-in is a move. From page 40 in the main rules; "While a unit is locked in combat is may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

So in a nutshell, anything which is not a pile-in move is not allowed, unless a special rule or wargear specifically allows it. The old veil of darkness rule specifically said that a unit locked in combat was allowed to use VoD to leave the combat. The new VoD rule no longer specifies this allowance, and neither does gate of infinity. So neither allowws the unit to move if they are locked in close combat.

time wizard wrote:Pile-in is a move. From page 40 in the main rules; "While a unit is locked in combat is may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

So in a nutshell, anything which is not a pile-in move is not allowed, unless a special rule or wargear specifically allows it. The old veil of darkness rule specifically said that a unit locked in combat was allowed to use VoD to leave the combat. The new VoD rule no longer specifies this allowance, and neither does gate of infinity. So neither allowws the unit to move if they are locked in close combat.

It is a good thing that the casting of GoI is not a "Move"

DeathReaper wrote:
It is a good thing that the casting of GoI is not a "Move"

From The Gate Of Infinity, Codex Space Marine, "If the Librarian travels alone, there is no risk, but if he takes a unit with him, there is a chance something will go wrong."

I don't know how travelling is not moving. And further, "If the deep strike sttempt scatters..." and from the Deep Strike rules, "If a scatter occurs, roll 2D6 to sii how many inches the model moves away from the intended position."

GoI is a psychic power that is used in the Movement phase to move the Librarian and an attached unit up to 24" on the table. If that's not a move, then what is it?

Check out Page 11 for what the BRB defines as a 'move'

DeathReaper wrote:Check out Page 11 for what the BRB defines as a 'move'

You mean the one that goes, "Sometimes a unit may have to move a random distance instead of the usual 6" or be forced to move in a certain way...".

And GoI says the Librarian and his unit "...are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24"..." random distance, "...using the deep strike rules..." forced to move in a certain way.

GoI certainly fits the definition of a "Move".

Casting GoI is not a move, it is casting a psychic power.

time wizard wrote:GoI is a psychic power that is used in the Movement phase to move the Librarian and an attached unit up to 24" on the table. If that's not a move, then what is it?

It is simply a psychic power that is used in the Movement Phase. The effects of the power have no bearing on whether or not you can use it.

time wizard wrote:You mean the one that goes, "Sometimes a unit may have to move a random distance instead of the usual 6" or be forced to move in a certain way...".

No, the one that says, "a player may move any of his units -- all of them if he wishes -- up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all of the units he wishes to move." The section you quoted concerns the movement distance.

When reserves arrive (outflanking and normal reserves), the units "move" onto the board following the normal movement procedures. Deep strike units are held in reserves, but are not reserve forces. Units arriving by Deep Strike are placed onto the board.

time wizard wrote:Pile-in is a move. From page 40 in the main rules; "While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

So in a nutshell, anything which is not a pile-in move is not allowed, unless a special rule or wargear specifically allows it. The old veil of darkness rule specifically said that a unit locked in combat was allowed to use VoD to leave the combat. The new VoD rule no longer specifies this allowance, and neither does gate of infinity. So neither allowws the unit to move if they are locked in close combat.

Note that the action is referred to as a "pile-in move" in the text. And considering that the Movement Phase and Shooting Phase both already prohibit models locked in combat from Moving and Shooting, I'd say this is already covered. The restrictive part here is that this quote says only pile-in moves are allowed -- if this prevents use of wargear abilities and psychic powers, then definitely GoI can't be used in combat. However, that would also mean you can't use Might of the Ancients, Quickening, and Force Dome while locked in CC -- which would be news to me.

It's a psychic power, and the only psychic powers that can't be used while locked in CC are psychic shooting powers. Therefore, GoI can be used when locked in CC.

elrabin wrote:It's a psychic power, and the only psychic powers that can't be used while locked in CC are psychic shooting powers. Therefore, GoI can be used when locked in CC.

I agree whole-heartedly that it can be cast while locked in CC, however, since it does not specify that you can use it to leave CC (similar to 'Ere We Go/Skyleap), it wwon't do anything. It's like using Weaken Resolve on a Walker, there's nothing saying oyu cannot cast it, but it won't do jack.

Happyjew wrote:

elrabin wrote:It's a psychic power, and the only psychic powers that can't be used while locked in CC are psychic shooting powers. Therefore, GoI can be used when locked in CC.

I agree whole-heartedly that it can be cast while locked in CC, however, since it does not specify that you can use it to leave CC (similar to 'Ere We Go/Skyleap), it wwon't do anything. It's like using Weaken Resolve on a Walker, there's nothing saying oyu cannot cast it, but it won't do jack.

This↑ - As has been said, casting GoI is not a move, but the result is moving, and the only move allowed by a unit that is locked in combat is a pile-in move.

OK, so we agree that you can use GoI when locked in combat.

There are two parts to GoI:

1. Remove the unit from the table.
2. Place on the table according to DS rules.

Is removing a unit from the table movement?

It can be, the only time removing the models would not be movement is removing them due to casualties (and possibly embarking onto a vehicle/building). Anything else that removes you from the table (especially if you then immediately ds would in fact be movement.

OK -- I don't think we are really going to be able to make any progress on this subject. The disagreement boils down to what is "movement" and how abilities/powers are resolved. No official FAQ or rulebook entry satisfactorily addresses either of these points, which means there are one or two outcomes, based on what you believe is the correct interpretation:

1. You can GoI out of CC because a) it's a non-shooting psychic power, and the power itself is not movement, or b) removing from the table and placing via DS rules is not movement

2. You cannot GoI out of CC because the power causes the unit to move, which is not allowed when locked in CC.


Without official clarification, I don't think this is something that can be resolved outside of individual playgroups. A quick Google yields lots of head-scratching over the last couple of years

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=165112&st=0&p=1951341&#entry1951341
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/archive/index.php/t-1993.html
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=188028.0

Removing a model from the table takes it out of play-it then reenters play in a different location. You could probably ask GW to clarify it, but until there is hard evidence, I'd continue to use it as being able to remove yourself from combat. I don't feel removing something from play counts as movement-if it isn't moving somewhere on the table, it isn't movement. I'm also in the camp of "you have permission to use the power," therefore you'd need LACK of permission to change whether it can have an effect on combat. Permission is given already, so wording must be given to take part of that permission away, if someone deems it unacceptable.

DeathReaper wrote:It is a good thing that the casting of GoI is not a "Move"

Too bad that the action performed after casting GoI is a move.......................

Too bad that DSing is not 'Move' as Move is outlined on page 11, and DS is not within the description of the 'Move'

"may not move any further"

It is explicitly a move. Shucks, you have been prohibited frmo making ANY move that movement phase by being locked in combat, and are attempting to make a move during that movement phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"may not move any further"

It is explicitly a move. Shucks, you have been prohibited frmo making ANY move that movement phase by being locked in combat, and are attempting to make a move during that movement phase.

"may not move any further" just prohibits them from moving after a DS.

It does not say it is explicitly a move.

kirsanth wrote:

the Deep Strike happens after the models have been removed from the table, and thus no longer locked in combat.

This is irrelevant.
"Units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

This does not say that you cannot move while locked.
If the Movement phase starts with you locked in CC, you cannot move.

Except it looks to me that you just changed the rule. It doesn't say, "If the Movement phase starts with you locked in CC, you cannot move.". If there was some effect that happened at the start of hte movement phase the destroyed the unit you were locked in CC with, you would then deny the opposing unit an opportunity to move? I don't see that as being supportable. Same goes for Shooting. You would similarly deny the unit an opportunity to Run?

As has been stated, Casting GoI does not constitute Movement. It is only when you later deep strike the unit that you now count as having moved.

-Yad

DR - no, being unable to move FURTHER explicitly means you have MOVED already, otherwise you could not move FURTHER

Yad - a unit that was locked in CC cannot move. So you check - are you locked in CC? IF yes, then during this movement phase you cannot Move. There is no rule stating that you can move if, during the phase, you become unlocked from Close Combat, or lifting the earlier restriction.

DS is movement, so you are expkicitly attempting to move when you have been told you cannot move.

Seems very overpowered and easy to use, if it sounds too good to be true then it is. A friend of ours was wondering this exact same thing.

"The Ork Weirdboy power "Ere we go" also specifically mentions leaving CC."

If specificly mentions this, why wouldn't if it wasn't permissive? seems very black and white to me.. stop trying to squeeze out more of a power than it has, its already awesome.

If a model at the end of the movement phase is not at the same point it was at during the beginning of the movement phase it has moved. To say otherwise is false.

GoI Does not say it doesn't count as moving, and it does not say you can use it to leave combat.

Therefore using GoI counts as moving.

it has no allowance to be used to leave assault so you cannot leave assault.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - no, being unable to move FURTHER explicitly means you have MOVED already, otherwise you could not move FURTHER

Yad - a unit that was locked in CC cannot move. So you check - are you locked in CC? IF yes, then during this movement phase you cannot Move. There is no rule stating that you can move if, during the phase, you become unlocked from Close Combat, or lifting the earlier restriction.

DS is movement, so you are expkicitly attempting to move when you have been told you cannot move.

No, it may imply that they have moved, but it does not say they have moved, as P.11 does not mention DS being a move.

blaktoof wrote:If a model at the end of the movement phase is not at the same point it was at during the beginning of the movement phase it has moved. To say otherwise is false.

It has not followed the movement rules, so it is not a 'move' as defined by the BRB P.11

Page 11 of BRB
"units already locked in close combat with the enemy, may not move during the movement phase."

Casting a psychic power is not movement.

Removing models from the table is not movement.

Deep strike is not stated specifically in the BRB as "movement" but it is vaguely implied since models arriving via deep strike are counted as having moved for the purpose of shooting on p 95 of the BRB.

The power WILL work. only what happens is up for debate.
These are the only two outcomes i can see for this.

1. Models are removed from the tabletop and since they are no longer locked (and thus free to move), they deep strike as normal.

2. Models are removed from the tabletop but since they are not allowed movement as stated on page 11, the models may not deep strike.

question is in #2 what happens to the unit? Are they stuck in reserve or can they deep strike the following turn?

Karnac wrote: Page 11 of BRB
"units already locked in close combat with the enemy, may not move during the movement phase."

The rule from page 11 gets a specific exception on page 40 in the main rules; "While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

So even though page 11 says the unit may not move, page 40 says the unit may only make pile-in moves.

Karnac wrote:Casting a psychic power is not movement.

Casting certain psychic powers is not movement. Like fortune or force dome, which are also cast at the beginning of the player turn or the beginning of the Movment phase.

Karnac wrote: Removing models from the table is not movement.

Like when you embark a unit? the rule on page 64 says, "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside..." but, "A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the Movement phase." So removing the model from the table in this instance might not actually be movement, but it is the result of movement, isn't it?

Karnac wrote: The power WILL work. only what happens is up for debate.

The power might work. A psychic test must be made first.

Karnac wrote: These are the only two outcomes i can see for this.

1. Models are removed from the tabletop and since they are no longer locked (and thus free to move), they deep strike as normal.

2. Models are removed from the tabletop but since they are not allowed movement as stated on page 11, the models may not deep strike.

question is in #2 what happens to the unit? Are they stuck in reserve or can they deep strike the following turn?

The two possible outcomes are;

1-The models cannot move out of close combat because units locked in CC can only make pile-in moves.

2-The models can "only make pile-in moves" so you remove the Librarian and his unit from the tabletop, they must make a pile-in move, so they must be placed in base contact with the enemy unit they were in close combat with, and they must use the gate of infinity using deep strike rules which say if you land within 1" of an enemy unit you cause a mishap, so you immediately cause a mishap, and this is just ridiculous.

Which leaves us with the only possible outcome being that the Librarian can cast Gate of Infinity, but neither he nor his unit can move out of close combat so the Librarian has used his psychic power for the turn.

time wizard wrote:
The rule from page 11 gets a specific exception on page 40 in the main rules; "While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

So even though page 11 says the unit may not move, page 40 says the unit may only make pile-in moves.

once removed from the table, they are no longer locked in combat. The quote from page 40 supports my #2 theory of the units making it off the table but not being able to return to the table.

time wizard wrote: Casting certain psychic powers is not movement. Like fortune or force dome, which are also cast at the beginning of the player turn or the beginning of the Movment phase.

casting any psychic power is not a movement action, no movement occurs until the models try to return to the table.

time wizard wrote:
Like when you embark a unit? the rule on page 64 says, "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside..." but, "A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the Movement phase." So removing the model from the table in this instance might not actually be movement, but it is the result of movement, isn't it?

In the instance of embarking the models have to move into the transport and they're technically still in play (inside the vehicle that is on the table). In the instance of Gate, the models are completely removed from play before coming back on the table. gate's removal isnt movement, movement doesn't occur until they try to deep strike back in.

time wizard wrote:
The power might work. A psychic test must be made first.

indeed.

I'm going to bring up the Tyranid mawloc's Burrow ability. it also allows it to remove itself from the table and then re-enter play via deep strike the following turn. it reads as such:
"a mawloc can, at any point during its movement phase, elect to re-burrow provided it is not engaged in close combat."
In the case of the Mawloc it specifically states in the rule that it cannot be used in combat, where as GoI does not state this.

Additionally, the quote from page 40 can be overridden by special abilities or by this power. the Ability "hit and run" allows models to make moves that are not pile-in moves. GoI can do it too since nothing in the rules would disallow the use of a non-shooting psychic power in close combat (except in cases where the power states Cannot be used while in close combat"

Remember, permissive rule set. If it does not say you CAN, then you can NOT.

DR - being unable to move further requires you to have already moved. To say otherwise belies plain English.

Not being able to move is not a state condition, that goes once you are no longer locked during a movement phase - it is a condition on the entire movement phase. If you are locked, you cannot make any move other than a pile in move. Thats it. Even if you become UNlocked, you cannot move, because the rule has denied you the ability to move for that movement phase, and nothing has removed that restriction.

Happyjew wrote:Remember, permissive rule set. If it does not say you CAN, then you can NOT.

I can cast the power while locked. Find the rule denying that.
I can remove the models from the table because GoI permits it. Find the rule denying that.

The last point I can't be bothered to discuss - I just wanted to point out that the quoted statement was irrelevant.

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Remember, permissive rule set. If it does not say you CAN, then you can NOT.

I can cast the power while locked. Find the rule denying that.
I can remove the models from the table because GoI permits it. Find the rule denying that.

The last point I can't be bothered to discuss - I just wanted to point out that the quoted statement was irrelevant.

It is not up to anyone to find the rule that denies you using GoI to leave close combat.

It is up to you to find the specific rule that permits you to leave close combat via GoI.

And I'll save you some time, you won't find it.

Gate of infinity can take you out of combat and here is why

the rule
The gate of infinity
the power is used at the begining of the movement phase,the
liby and any unit he is with "Are removed from the table" (thus taking them out of comabt and any rules that apply to it) and immediatly placed back on the table anywhere within 24" useing the DS rules (so after being removed from table, you then DS back on), the rest is about rolling double and casualties.

so the order of the rule is this.
stage 1: begining of movement phase, take psychic test
stage 2: remove unit from table
stage 3: place unit within 24" useing DS rules

now by the time the unit is useing the DS it has been removed from the table, and thus the CC rules dont apply to it.

this is RAW, i hate raw, but it seems clear here