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Happyjew wrote:Remember, permissive rule set. If it does not say you CAN, then you can NOT.
I can cast the power while locked. Find the rule denying that.
I can remove the models from the table because GoI permits it. Find the rule denying that.
The last point I can't be bothered to discuss - I just wanted to point out that the quoted statement was irrelevant.
It is not up to anyone to find the rule that denies you using GoI to leave close combat.
It is up to you to find the specific rule that permits you to leave close combat via GoI.
And I'll save you some time, you won't find it.
I have a rule - the one that allows me to remove models from the table.
There are no exceptions to that rule. There's nothing denying that rule.
Care to try again?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
If DS is a "move," how does this interact with Impassable Terrain? Do scattering infantry units stop at the first Impassable Terrain they would be forced to cross? Or must they check this from the location where they were stored prior to arrival?
If the answer is "no," which it should be, then you are admitting that "move" in the Movement Phase section is referring to a very specific type of move -- namely, the move described on BRB 11, which is selecting a unit and moving then up to their movement value. Which means that "move" has been defined sufficiently, and is why many actions that cause movement (disembark, DS, etc.) specifically state that any unit using the action are "counted as moving" during the following Shooting Phase.
There is nothing stating that models arriving via DS can move or scatter over Impassable Terrain. I can't see how you can argue this action to be a "move" while still allowing units to pass through Impassable Terrain.
time wizard wrote:It is not up to anyone to find the rule that denies you using GoI to leave close combat.
It is up to you to find the specific rule that permits you to leave close combat via GoI.
And I'll save you some time, you won't find it.
I suppose then that Skyleap can't be used to leave CC either, as it does not explicitly permit you to leave combat in the text. It only tells you that, if you did leave CC, the previously engaged enemies can consolidate 3".
Specifying that enemies can or cannot consolidate is not a prerequisite for leaving combat. If you "leave combat" because your opponent's models are completely removed due to shooting (scattering blast markers), you don't get to consolidate.
It is a fact that if you are locked in combat, you may make no movement action for your entire movement phase.
Even if GoI allows you to leave combat, at the start of the turn you were prohibited from any move the entire movement phase. The rule does not say 'while the unit is locked, it can not move.' The rule is specific--you cant move in the movement phase.
Now, one of the conditions of GoI is deepstriking. So the ENTIRE crux of the argument is if deepstriking is movement. As has been pointed out, 'may move no further' certianly means that you have moved. However, the rule there is not clear to some, and easy to interpret incorrectly.
Further reading reveals, however, that deepstriking 'counts-as having moved' for some actions. This is much clearer--GoI is an action that counts as having moved that you perform in the movement phase, and you are not permitted to move in the movement phase when locked in cc. You cant take an action that counts as moving if you can not move.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 02:09:07
Seriously everyone, look at GW's FAQs. While they don't address this question specifically, if you read a little in between the lines at incredibly similar abilities you can pretty much figure out how you should be playing this.
In all cases, these abilities and powers that remove units from the table and redeploy them via Deep Strike are not allowed to be used on a unit that is falling back. Why could that be? If removing the unit from play and redeploying it via Deep Strike is not considered moving the unit, then why would GW's ruling on this topic always deny units that are falling back from being removed and redeployed this way...even when another unit is the one initiating the action (such as with 'Summoning' for the Grey Knights).
The answer is simple: Redeploying a unit via Deep Strike is moving it, and you are not allowed to knowingly break a rule. So even though casting the power is technically legal and removing the unit from the table is technically legal, successfully redeploying the unit somewhere else does count as moving it and therefore is not something you are allowed to do.
The FAQs don't really make things any clearer. Taking a look at Skyleap...
Eldar FAQ wrote:Q. Can Skyleap be used to leave play in the same turn the unit deep strikes in?
A. Yes, ...
Q. If a Swooping Hawk unit is falling back when the turn begins, can it utilise Skyleap that turn?
A. No, it cannot. That unit must test to regroup before it can move, and the rules for regrouping are quite strict about what the unit can do that turn, whether it passes the test or fails it.
This seems contradictory to me. The answer to the second question seems to indicate that Skyleap is movement, but this would create a contradiction! Deep strike says you cannot "move further" during the Movement Phase of turn the unit arrives. A unit that successfully regroups makes their 3" move, but "cannot otherwise move during that Movement Phase." If the restriction on movement would prevent the Swooping Hawks from Skyleaping after regrouping, then why wouldn't the restriction on Deep Strike prevent them from Skyleaping after arriving via DS?
If removing the unit from the table is not Movement, then what would keep the answer to both questions from being Yes? If removing the unit from the table is Movement, then why wouldn't both answers be no?
Are there any other similar psychic powers that have FAQ entries? It's not really possibly to discern why Summoning can't be used on a Falling Back unit when the answer is simply "no."
elrabin wrote:The FAQs don't really make things any clearer. Taking a look at Skyleap...
Eldar FAQ wrote:Q. Can Skyleap be used to leave play in the same turn the unit deep strikes in?
A. Yes, ...
Q. If a Swooping Hawk unit is falling back when the turn begins, can it utilise Skyleap that turn?
A. No, it cannot. That unit must test to regroup before it can move, and the rules for regrouping are quite strict about what the unit can do that turn, whether it passes the test or fails it.
This seems contradictory to me. The answer to the second question seems to indicate that Skyleap is movement, but this would create a contradiction! Deep strike says you cannot "move further" during the Movement Phase of turn the unit arrives. A unit that successfully regroups makes their 3" move, but "cannot otherwise move during that Movement Phase." If the restriction on movement would prevent the Swooping Hawks from Skyleaping after regrouping, then why wouldn't the restriction on Deep Strike prevent them from Skyleaping after arriving via DS?
If removing the unit from the table is not Movement, then what would keep the answer to both questions from being Yes? If removing the unit from the table is Movement, then why wouldn't both answers be no?
Are there any other similar psychic powers that have FAQ entries? It's not really possibly to discern why Summoning can't be used on a Falling Back unit when the answer is simply "no."
I agree that it is a contradiction, but again, read the answer about why they can't use skyleap when falling back...because skyleap is considered movement and the unit must take a test to regroup before moving.
As for other FAQ items on similar circumstances, the old Necron FAQ ruled exactly the same way for the Veil of Death (Veil couldn't be used on a unit that was falling back).
Just seriously take a step back and don't try to over think the issue. These things, are strange, non-standard ways for a unit to move, but the unit is still moving from one point of the board to another with these abilities. When you're locked in combat you're not allowed to move, so these abilities cannot be used while locked in combat unless they specify otherwise (as some of them do).
Elrabin - DS is a move, once it is resolved. A scattering model is a MARKER, and not the unit itself, so it isnt moving, and has specific instructions on interacting with impassable terrain.
The DS process in toto is the movement, not the scatter.
You are prohibted from moving for that entire movement phase if you were locked in combat. DS IS movement, repeatedly asserted to be so in rules AND FAQs
Formosa wrote:Gate of infinity can take you out of combat and here is why
the rule
The gate of infinity
the power is used at the begining of the movement phase,
the liby and any unit he is with "Are removed from the table" (thus taking them out of comabt and any rules that apply to it) and immediatly placed back on the table anywhere within 24" useing the DS rules (so after being removed from table, you then DS back on), the rest is about rolling double and casualties.
so the order of the rule is this.
stage 1: begining of movement phase, take psychic test
stage 2: remove unit from table
stage 3: place unit within 24" useing DS rules
now by the time the unit is useing the DS it has been removed from the table, and thus the CC rules dont apply to it.
this is RAW, i hate raw, but it seems clear here
being locked into combat and making a move are not relevent here, as you are only useing the DS rules AFTER you have been removed from table, the only relevent argument is if you can even cast Gate while locked in combat, this is where the rule is hazy.
the rule would have been better had it been in shooting phase instead on fireing another weapon
Formosa wrote:being locked into combat and making a move are not relevent here, as you are only useing the DS rules AFTER you have been removed from table,
It's absolutely relevant as the rule checks your state at the beginning of the movement phase and then forbids movement for your entire movement phase.
If you get unlocked in the middle of the movement phase you still can't move - you were locked at one point.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
that rule ceases to apply as soon as you leave the table, rules dont apply to units not on the table, unless otherwise stated like DS outflanking etc.
as i said, the hazy part is if you can cast it in combat at all, not whether or not you can DS bank on afterwards
now the rule that checks your state at the begining of the movement phase, what order takes precedence, as gate states at begining of movement phase also, so if i choose to use gate at begining of phase and then check, or vice versa, whats to stop that happening?
Formosa wrote:the rule would have been better had it been in shooting phase instead on fireing another weapon
Gate of infinity could not be used in the shooting phase because it is not shooting.
It is used in the Movement phase because it is.....um
I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
Sorry, what? That is nonsense. Embarked models arent on the table, so does that mean they cannot shoot? (after all, rules dont apply to models not on th etable, including the "you can shoot while embarked" rules)
No, you are prohibited from Moving during the ENTIRE movement phase. This prohibition is NOT lifted by casting Gate, therefore you CANNOT move in the movement phase.
nosferatu1001 wrote:" rules dont apply to units not on the table"
Sorry, what? That is nonsense. Embarked models arent on the table, so does that mean they cannot shoot? (after all, rules dont apply to models not on the table, including the "you can shoot while embarked" rules)
No, you are prohibited from Moving during the ENTIRE movement phase. This prohibition is NOT lifted by casting Gate, therefore you CANNOT move in the movement phase.
Formosa wrote:that rule ceases to apply as soon as you leave the table, rules dont apply to units not on the table, unless otherwise stated like DS outflanking etc.
Formosa wrote:that rule ceases to apply as soon as you leave the table, rules dont apply to units not on the table, unless otherwise stated like DS outflanking etc.
just in case you missed it
Well, in case you missed this part of the rule, please read the main rulebook, page 95, left hand column, paragraph 7 which says when models arrive by deep strike, in the Assault phase of the turn they may not assault, even if they have the fleet rule, unless otherwise specified because, "...they are too disrupted by their deep strike move." {emphasis mine}
So if you want to use GoI to remove the models from the tabletop, and then immediately place them within 24" by the deep strike rules, those same deep strike rules call it a "...deep strike move." and the only move a unit can make that is locked in close combat is a pile-in move, not a deep strike move.
So you can't use gate of infinity if you are locked in combat.
I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
It is explicitly a move. Shucks, you have been prohibited frmo making ANY move that movement phase by being locked in combat, and are attempting to make a move during that movement phase.
You mean "implicit", not "explicit", but that's rather beside the point. Deep Strike is a means of entering play that occurs at the start of the Movement phase and prohibits any further movement. Its the way the language (as in English) works to phrase it that way. Technically the unit has "moved onto the table" via Deep Strike. Doesn't really have any bearing here.
time wizard wrote:
Karnac wrote: Removing models from the table is not movement.
Like when you embark a unit? the rule on page 64 says, "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside..." but, "A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the Movement phase." So removing the model from the table in this instance might not actually be movement, but it is the result of movement, isn't it?
The rules for embarkation state the unit must move within 2" of an access point. If all models are within 2", the unit is removed from table and is "embarked" on the transport. The removal of the unit from the table is not the move. The movement into range of the access point is that unit's move.
So while you are right that removing models from the table is movement, its not for the argument you chose.
Core Argument:
Q. If a Swooping Hawk unit is falling back when the turn begins, can it utilise Skyleap that turn? (p35)
A. No, it cannot. That unit must test to regroup before it can move, and the rules for regrouping are quite strict about what the unit can do that turn, whether it passes the test or fails it
Codex: Eldar FAQ/Errata Update 2012
The Movement Phase Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly specify that they can. All good wargamers know that the edge of the table is the end of the world!
Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook FAQ/Errata Update 2012
These two FAQs both indicate that GW treats the removal of a unit from the table as movement. At least implicitly. They don't seem to say it explicitly anywhere in the BRB. However, the numerous examples of specific exceptions for being "locked in close combat" as provided earlier in this thread, coupled with these two FAQ entries seems to give us a pretty clear picture to me.
It also makes sense as to why GoI is used in the Movement phase rather than just "at the beginning of the turn".
So if you are "Locked" in combat, you can't Gate out. I wish it were otherwise, mainly for Rule of Cool and Fluff reasons, but RAW and RAI seems to preclude it. As people say, its a permissive rule set. The rules tell you what you can and cannot do. Anything not in the rules is assumed to be a "cannot" otherwise the game breaks. Implicitly, GoI counts as movement. The rules for it allow you to move off the table and redeploy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/10 00:03:58
time wizard wrote:Well, in case you missed this part of the rule, please read the main rulebook, page 95, left hand column, paragraph 7 which says when models arrive by deep strike, in the Assault phase of the turn they may not assault, even if they have the fleet rule, unless otherwise specified because, "...they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."{emphasis mine}
The underlined is fluff, nothing more.
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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
So DS counting as a move, being told you cannot move any further, and it not being a Pile In move (the only move you are allowed to make) isnt sufficient?
It is never defined as a move, as a move is defined on P.11 and DS is never mentioned.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote:It is never defined as a move, as a move is defined on P.11 and DS is never mentioned.
Pile-in moves aren't mentioned on page 11 either, same for consolidation moves. Are these not moves as well because page 11 doesn't mention them?
Many things in the rules are not defined, and there is no glossary. Does that mean we are free to ignore those items as well?
Plus, page 11 says that units locked in combat may not move during the Movement phase, but page 40 says a unit locked in combat may only make a pile-in move.
So which is correct? No pile-in move allowed because it is not defined on page 11?
But none of this really matters. Doesn't matter if you think deep striking is a move or not. It is very simple.
Does the gate of infinity rule give permission to use it to leave close combat? No? Then you can't do it.
I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
Pile in moves are defined as moves on P.40 "Just like when defenders react to being assaulted, these models move into base contact..."
There is no such language on P.95
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/10 07:29:15
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DR, please explain to me, how you "cannot move any further" if you have not yet moved. If DS was not a move, you would not be allowed to "move in the movement phase", not "move any further". Additionally, the rules say that vehicles DSing "move at Crusiing speed". More proof that DS is in fact a move.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
you cannot move any further just restricts your ability to move, at best it implies that deep striking is movement, but it does not tell us that deep striking is movement.
This is just like units joining IC's they have an rule that implies that they can join IC's, but there is no rule stating they can, so they can not right?
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
