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This is a question a friend of mine has had for a while and I've never really been able to answer or get an answer. He was wondering if you can use the Gate of Infinity to escape CC and teleport to a new location. I don't know the exact wording on the rules so I really can't say. Any of y'all got some advice?

There are currently two different camps on the matter.

#1) say you can not use GoI because using the DS rules counts as moving and you can not move while in CC.

#2) say you can, as there is nothing restricting you from casting GoI whilst in combat, and removing models from CC is not a "Move"

So find a solution within your gaming group.

If you are going to a tournament check with the To beforehand.

I say that if the Veil of Darkness doesn't let you escape CC, then neither should the Gate of Infinity.

Permissive ruleset, if it doesn't say you CAN then you CANNOT.

Kevin949 wrote:Permissive ruleset, if it doesn't say you CAN then you CANNOT.

and in the case of GoI you have the permission to cast it with no other restrictions.

So it does indeed say you CAN.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Permissive ruleset, if it doesn't say you CAN then you CANNOT.

and in the case of GoI you have the permission to cast it with no other restrictions.

So it does indeed say you CAN.

So where does it say the result can be used in CC? You can cast whatever power you want, sure, but you can't actually benefit from GoI in CC.

From another site that references back to here - cincycag.forumotion.com/t2441-gate-of-infinity-clarification
Also yielding a search on this question brings up the same answer in just about all the forums I checked. *Shrug*

yakface wrote:
Makari wrote:
There are no rules in the game that say you can't leave combat that I can find. Having said that though you can't leave combat because only pile in moves can be made and may not otherwise move move or shoot. Gate of Infinity does not count as moving as bizarre as the physics are in this, The GoI is a Psychic Power that is used in the movement phase. The unit never "moved" it is removed from the board and deepstrikes. they don't move, they count as having moved per deepstrike rules as far as shooting or moving for that turn.



Models that deep strike do count as having moved.
Models that are locked in combat cannot move other than to make pile-in moves.

Therefore, a player cannot willingly use Gate of Infinity on a unit locked in combat as successfully doing so would end up breaking a rule.


yakface wrote:
Makari wrote:
So the act of successfully casting the Gate of infinity is considered a movement? I know that when they reenter play they are deep striking thus counted as moved, but how is "casting" (for a lack of a better word) movement. Does this mean that force dome cannot be cast when locked in combat, because it is used at the start of the movement phase?

Would that supersede the BRB because it is in the codex?

I am compiling an FAQ of things not covered by the holiest of holies FAQ's until it is FAQ'd for the CAG tournament in May which is why I'm interested in this ruling especially with the large amount of Space Marine Players out there.

The general permission to cast GoI without giving any restrictions is where it says you can use it at the beginning of the movement phase. It does not say that you can not cast it whilst in CC. (Normally it must say you can, but it has already said we can, and now it needs to say we cant.)

But that is why i said there are two camps.

One camp says: removing models from CC is not a move.

The other says that using GoI to DS is a move, and even though you are not in CC at the time you DS, it is still considered a move.

DeathReaper wrote:The general permission to cast GoI without giving any restrictions is where it says you can use it at the beginning of the movement phase. It does not say that you can not cast it whilst in CC. (Normally it must say you can, but it has already said we can, and now it needs to say we cant.)

But that is why i said there are two camps.

One camp says: removing models from CC is not a move.

The other says that using GoI to DS is a move, and even though you are not in CC at the time you DS, it is still considered a move.

That's the point of a permissive rule set, it does not need to say you "can not" do something, it needs to say explicitly that you can. Let's take the old veil of darkness as an example. It operated the same way, remove the models from the board and re-enter via deep strike rules. Used in the movement phase. The difference is that the veil of darkness specified it could be used in CC. GoI does not. Yes, I know that one codex does not take precedence over another or whatever, but this situation, while outdated now, is still relevant to the argument to why you can't GoI out of CC. That is, simply, that it does not say you can.

Kevin949 wrote:That is, simply, that it does not say you can.

I am allowed to cast the power while in CC.
Find the denial of permission for the power to function.

You cannot make a Move while in close ombat, except for pile in. Deepstrike is movement.

So you can cast the power, but it cannot have any effect because to do so would break a rule

Kevin949 wrote:That's the point of a permissive rule set, it does not need to say you "can not" do something, it needs to say explicitly that you can.

I know, and GoI gives you unrestricted permission to cast GoI.

Once you are given permission to do something you can do it when it allows you to do it, unless it says you can't.

So indeed in the case of a psychic power, once given permission it needs to say you "can not" otherwise you have permission.

Removing models from the table is NOT a move, so you can remove them from CC with GoI.

E.G the shooting rules give you permission to shoot one weapon in the shooting phase. So you can always fire a weapon in the shooting phase. (Except if you are locked in CC, as the CC rules specifically restrict the general permission to shoot in the shooting phase whilst locked in CC.)

Did this example help to understand how the Permissive rule set works?

"Deepstrike is movement" you are not in CC when you DS, you have been removed from the table, which is not movement.

I see GoI (and similar powers) to work very similar to the Swooping Hawk Exarch 'Skyleap ' ability. Skyleap (for those who do not know) allows a unit of Swooping hawks, to leave and be put (back) into reserves. The difference, (as I see it) is that Skyleap specifically says that it can be used while locked in close combat, and if they do, their opponents immediately consolidate.

Happyjew wrote:The difference, (as I see it) is that Skyleap specifically says that it can be used while locked in close combat, and if they do, their opponents immediately consolidate.

The Ork Weirdboy power "Ere we go" also specifically mentions leaving CC.

Spetulhu wrote:

Happyjew wrote:The difference, (as I see it) is that Skyleap specifically says that it can be used while locked in close combat, and if they do, their opponents immediately consolidate.

The Ork Weirdboy power "Ere we go" also specifically mentions leaving CC.

Agreed, even the example for OBryon in the Necron dex spells out that he can use his Special Veil of Darkness to leave CC. GoI has no such language allowing this.

Delta Echo wrote:Agreed, even the example for OBryon in the Necron dex spells out that he can use his Special Veil of Darkness to leave CC. GoI has no such language allowing this.

It does not need to have specific language allowing this, as you are given permission to cast GoI at the start of the movement phase, with no other restrictions.

So GoI power does allow you to cast GoI at the start of the movement phase without caring that you are locked in CC.

Yes, you can cast it - you cannot then resolve the power, because that would be breaking a rule (you are locked in combat and are attempting to move)

1. Moving a model/unit is defined as moving it any distance up to their movement value during the Movement Phase. Disembark/embark, turning, etc., are all actions that are performed while moving.

2. Deep Strike is an "arrival," not movement. During the subsequent Shooting Phase, Units arriving via Deep Strike count as having moved in the Movement Phase.

3. Units locked in combat cannot move or shoot.

4. The SM codex allows a librarian to use GoI at the start of the Movement Phase.


Since there is no dependence on the Librarian moving to use GoI, then use of the power is not movement. The word "move" is not present at all in the description of GoI or Deep Strike (except to state that arriving units count as having moved in the subsequent Shooting Phase). The Librarian (and unit) cannot move after using GoI because they arrived using the Deep Strike rules, not because they already moved.

Being locked in combat does not prevent models from being removed from the table. Being locked in combat does not prevent you from using Psychic Powers. Being locked in combat does not force models to skip their Movement Phase. Since GoI is a psychic power that removes models from the table and is used in the Movement Phase, I don't see any reason why it cannot be used while locked in combat.

(Further note that models arriving during Deep Strike don't simply "count as moving." They only count as having moved during the Shooting Phase. So if you think this would cause a contradiction and thus be disallowed, it actually does not; by the time the arriving unit is counted as having moved they are no longer locked in combat.)


That being said, personally I think the intent that GoI can't be used while locked in CC.

2) Is wrong. Deepstrike is explicily movement - "models may not move any further"

Additionally vehicles count as moving Cruising Speed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, you can cast it - you cannot then resolve the power, because that would be breaking a rule (you are locked in combat and are attempting to move)

No you are not attempting to move.

You remove the models from the table. That is not movement. unless I missed something in the BRB that says removing models from the table counts as moving.

the sequence of events is what matters.

Cast GoI (Allowed), Remove models from table (Allowed), DS onto the table (Allowed as the models are not locked in CC at this time).

And yet other powers/abilities that allow you to do something similar to GoI, specifically state that you can do it in cc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) Is wrong. Deepstrike is explicily movement - "models may not move any further"

That's implicit, not explicit. Furthermore, that statement could be taken instead to mean that models cannot "move" any additional distance. Nevertheless, even if Deep Strike were "movement" (and the explanation that they count as moving in the Shooting Phase is superfluous), the Deep Strike happens after the models have been removed from the table, and thus no longer locked in combat.

Happyjew wrote:And yet other powers/abilities that allow you to do something similar to GoI, specifically state that you can do it in cc.

Which is a fair argument for intent, not for RAW. Besides, 'Ere We Go does not say to first remove the models from the table, so they are technically still locked in combat. I'm not familiar with other powers that may be similar.

but you've got to think, such an artificat would requite a great ammount of power and concentration to build up before being able to use it safely, which concentration machine (not technically machines since they still think like there fleshy selves (For the most part))or otherwise would be kinda be lacking due to the combat thus quite difficult to dodge with power blades and big choppers swinging at you while trying to co-ordinate a relocation o.o

Clumpski wrote:but you've got to think, such an artificat would requite a great ammount of power and concentration to build up before being able to use it safely, which concentration machine (not technically machines since they still think like there fleshy selves (For the most part))or otherwise would be kinda be lacking due to the combat thus quite difficult to dodge with power blades and big choppers swinging at you while trying to co-ordinate a relocation o.o

So... fluff based argument?

elrabin:
Skyleap: The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, placing it in reserve. If the squad was engaged in combat, the enemy may make a 3" consolidation move.
Also 'Ere We Go, (like GoI) says you place the unit per DS rules.

Happyjew wrote:
elrabin:
Skyleap: The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, placing it in reserve. If the squad was engaged in combat, the enemy may make a 3" consolidation move.

Thanks for pulling this for me. However, nothing in the Skyleap entry (I "found" a copy of the Eldar codex) seems to explicitly say, "this can be used even if locked in CC." Instead, this statement tells you how to handle units that were locked in combat with the Skyleaping unit before they were removed from the table.

Eldar FAQ wrote:
Q. Can Skyleap be used to leave play in the same turn the unit deep strikes in?

A. Yes...

DS rules state you can't "move any further" in the turn the unit arrives, but the unit is still allowed to Skyleap. So using an ability in the Movement Phase when you cannot move is clearly allowed, and being removed from the table as part of that ability is not movement.


Edit:

Actually, with the way the Skyleap wording (and Eldar FAQ) is written, I'm beginning to think the intent is actually to allow GoI to be used while locked in CC.

the Deep Strike happens after the models have been removed from the table, and thus no longer locked in combat.

This is irrelevant.
"Units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

This does not say that you cannot move while locked.
If the Movement phase starts with you locked in CC, you cannot move.

Just so I understand, your argument is since, Skyleap does not outright tell us it can be used while engaged in combat (aka locked in cc/in assault/etc). Then they [the Swooping Hawks] cannot use Skyleap, and therefore the part about the unit it was locked in with consolidating 3" can never happen?

Also I checked the Ork codex and you are correct that the unit is not specified to be removed from the table, however, it still specifies that a) the Ork unit MUST use it even when locked in combat, and B) the Ork unit is placed using the DS rules.

Elarbin - if you cannot mvoe any further, then you have aready moved.

Explicit

Happyjew wrote:Just so I understand, your argument is since, Skyleap does not outright tell us it can be used while engaged in combat (aka locked in cc/in assault/etc). Then they [the Swooping Hawks] cannot use Skyleap, and therefore the part about the unit it was locked in with consolidating 3" can never happen?

Sorry if I was unclear. I argue that Skyleap does not explicitly say it can be used while engaged in combat, but it doesn't matter because using an Ability or Psychic Power in the Movement Phase is not "movement." Since you can use Skyleap to remove a unit of Swooping Hawks during the same Movement Phase where they arrived via DS, then using an ability or Psychic Power in the Movement Phase is clearly not a replacement for or dependent on the unit being able to move. As such, a unit of Swooping Hawks can use Skyleap during the Movement Phase even if they could not normally move, such as when they are locked in CC.

Like Kevin949 was quick to point out, this is a permissive rulset. The ability allows the unit/model to do something you can not normally do. (Otherwise, why would it be an ability?). Since Force Dome is a Psychic Ability also used at the start of the Movement Phase, let's compare GoI to Force Dome to see where the disagreement falls:

1. Librarian in CC uses Force Dome in his Movement Phase. Is this legal? Yes.

2. Librarian in CC uses GoI in his Movement Phase. Is this legal? Nothing says it can only be used outside of CC, and nothing prevents the model from using an ability, so Yes.

The argument is that the effects of GoI can't happen because this sequence of events is not valid. But isn't that what abilities and codex entries are? Specific exemptions to the rules? That's like saying Null Zone doesn't work because BRB2 says you can pick the dice you want to re-roll, but the Null Zone entry says they have to re-roll all successful checks.



In any case, the definition of "obvious" vocabulary seems to cause a lot of rules "debates." In this case, it's the word "move." Many people in this thread seem to be taking "move" as a physical change of location of any unit (including turning for vehicles)*. However, using the definitions established within the document, it seems to me that a "move" is strictly when units move up to their movement value during the Movement Phase. Any other position changes (Pile-In, Fall Back, Deep Strike, Disembark, etc.) is not a "move", though these actions may cause the unit to count as moving.