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Luide, I'm afraid you have the assault rules completely wrong.

I suggest you reread page 34 completely to understand better.

That part on page 34. ..may not move into B2B with enemies from a unit they are not assaulting.

When you do a multi-assault (from the "assaulting multiple enemy units" on the same page) you are assaulting the 2nd unit, so the 2nd unit becomes a unit you are assaulting. This is not a restriction against being in B2B with more than 1 unit unless somehow that enemy unit is excluded from the assault. You never need to declare the 2nd unit because it is not the target of the assault.

The actual rules for how you get into a multi assault are very specific. You cannot just move your models into B2B with any enemy unit within range while merely keeping coherency.

1) declare the (1) unit your assaulting and move the closest model first in a straight line into B2B with the closest enemy model.
2) one by one move each of your models into B2B with an unengaged enemy model from the target unit
3) no more uneganged enemy models within movement range? Instead now move within 2" of one of your models from the unit already in B2B
4) out of room and can't do #3 either? Now move anywhere in coherency with your unit - even in B2B with a 2nd unit.

This is called multi assault from the same page.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
The actual rules for how you get into a multi assault are very specific. You cannot just move your models into B2B with any enemy unit within range while merely keeping coherency.

1) declare the (1) unit your assaulting and move the closest model first in a straight line into B2B with the closest enemy model.
2) one by one move each of your models into B2B with an unengaged enemy model from the target unit
3) no more uneganged enemy models within movement range? Instead now move within 2" of one of your models from the unit already in B2B
4) out of room and can't do #3 either? Now move anywhere in coherency with your unit - even in B2B with a 2nd unit.

This is called multi assault from the same page.

They way you describe it, it would seem that you can only assault a second unit once you have max models in b2b with the first unit. This is not true. The only thing is you must declare A target of your assault. You must then move the closest to the closest. After that first model has moved, you are free to move any model into B2B (or within 2" of a modle that has already moved if not able to get in B2B) with the first unit. Or at anytime you may declare a multicharge, and move into b2b with a second unit.

And here is the whole problem with all of them, after the initial my unit A is assaulting your unit A, we have no direct distinction between a single charge or multi-charge. At which point we look back at the rule under assaulting multiple enemy units, and see that if we are going to assault multiple units with a single unit we must in all of the movements of the models follow the assaulting rules.

So to make it clear, there are some instances where you can have a linking model not in b2b with a model in either unit, but must be within coherency and not be able to reach a model in either unit. There is no choice in the matter though because you must follow all of the assault rules which clearly tell you, you cannot hold back, and must reach b2b if possible. There is no constriction of how many units you can assault, I mean if you have a bizillion models, infront of a bizillion other models from all different units, as long as you follow the assaulting rules your good.

Once you assault and you choose to, in other words not when you move models but when you get the idea to multicharge you are now instructed )if you choose to charge multiple units) to move into b2b with all models that can reach, and are not allowed to hold back.

Now I understand that this is going to be a tough thing to understand for some of you out there, but no holding back means just that. If you choose to multicharge you MUST make every attempt to get as many models into b2b with all of the units involved. None of this I move this guys here and then this guy will move into b2b with this other unit. You are forced to move that one guy into b2b because you are going to multi charge. Period.

I'm curious as it has been asked, and you still have not answered. Where in the rules does it state you can go back and move a model to a different location after you have already moved it during the assault move?

KP - and, again, you entirely lack ANY rule ANYWHERE forcing you to do so. Not a single rule, anywhere, states that if you INTEND to make a multiple assault you must treat every single model moving as if it were asaulting all units.

No such rule exists. Until a model moves into btb with a second unit, it is a single assault, and you are *prohibited* from moving into btb with any model in a unit you are not assaulting.

This means that, at the time you move the bridging model, this is a single assault, and is a legal move. You then have no permission to go back and remove a model that has already moved - despite being asked to find this permission a number of times now. You are claiming this choice is made only at the start of combat - despite the rules for multi assault stating this is allowed to be discovered half way through a move - apparently you just entirely ignore inconvenient rules!

It may be hard for you to accept just how wrong you are, but you really should do so at some point.

Luide wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote: But at that point you are being dishonest, and are willingly choosing to make an illegal move, for you know the rules and must follow said rules. There is no rule as far as I know that circumvents rules in this game. You must move into B2B.

Rules specify that I CANNOT move in to B2B with any other unit expect the one(s) I'm assaulting at that point. Explicitly.
"This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting. " (pg 34, moving assaulting models, emphasis mine)

Kapitalist-Pig wrote: Addtionally, you never delcare a multiple assault,

Luide wrote:3. Terminator C is so far out, that he cannot get into B2B with Rhino. I move him in coherency with either terminator A or B. (fourth bullet, pg 34 ) NOTE: It doesn't matter if the marine squad is within 6 inches of C or if there is any difficult terrain between them. I haven't yet declared assault against the marine squad and thus terminator C is not allowed to move B2B with them.

Is where you fall apart on this section.

First, one has to declare multiple assault. Because unless you're declaring to be assaulting unit B in addition to unit A, you're not allowed to move into B2B with unit B. Second: At that point I have broken absolutely no rules at this point. Fact that I'm planning on assaulting the marines later doesn't matter as I haven't declared them to be targets yet.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:The moment you decide to make a multi-charge, is when you are bound by the rules to follow all of them and must attempt to make base to base. Otherwise you are gaming the rules and are cheating.

I agree with this.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Simply put there is no multi-charge declaration, so you are at all times required to, if making the choice to do a multi-charge, to follow all the rules invovled in assaulting which include the
second bullet point, and No holding back.

Here you go wrong. At some point, you MUST declare that your unit X is assaulting unit B besides unit A. And this is the crux of the issue. Without this declaration, you're not allowed to move into B2B.
We know that multi-assault doesn't have to be declared before I start moving models:
"As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting." (pg 34, assaulting multiple enemy units)
In my example, I decided to multi-assault at point 4. After which I have two enemy units I can (and must) assault.

Or is your argument that I must declare multi-assault the moment it's possible, and if I don't do it then, I can't do it later? I see absolutely no rules that would support this reading.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Also, under assaulting multiple enemy units page 34, second paragraph, "As usual... Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they are following the rules for moving assaulting models...." This section does not give a time frame other then as usual the first model must move directly into contact of the delcared unit. So tells us that after the first move, we must maintain coherency and so on and so forth. Which means that if they can reach base contact with another model, and you are going to assault said unit, you must attempt to move every model into base contact, even if terrain is in the way and are now required to roll and see if the can make the assualt. There is no middle ground, no way around, no tunnel under, no flight over and no example where once you decide to assault the second unit, you can make it so you do not have to attempt to. All your moves must follow the assault rules.

All my moves in my example followed assault rules to the verbatim at each step. Here is the example, revised so that pre- and postconditions are more obvious at each step:

Lets say I have unit of 5 terminators, A to E. There are 2 hostile units within 6" of terminator unit, Rhino and marine squad X. There's also difficult terrain between terminator C and marine unit X.

1a. I declare assault on Rhino with my terminator unit. NOTE: It doesn't matter if I could reach marine squad X with Terminator A.
1b. At this point, Rhino is the only enemy model I'm allowed to move into B2B.
1c. Terminator A is closest to the Rhino. I move terminator A into B2B with Rhino. (pg 34). The enemy unit (Rhino) is now engaged.

2a. At this point, Rhino is the only enemy model I'm allowed to move into B2B, so there are no unengaged enemy models in the assault.
2b. I move terminator B into B2B with Rhino. (third bullet, pg 34). NOTE: It doesn't matter if I could reach marine squad X with Terminator B.

3a. At this point, Rhino is the only enemy model I'm allowed to move into B2B, so there are no unengaged enemy models in the assault.
3b. Terminator C is so far out, that he cannot get into B2B with Rhino. NOTE: It doesn't matter if the marine squad is within 6 inches of C or if there is any difficult terrain between them. I haven't yet declared assault against the marine squad and thus terminator C is not allowed to move B2B with them.
3c. I move Terminator C into coherency with either terminator A or B. (fourth bullet, pg 34)

4a. I decide to multi-assault. I declare I'm assaulting marine unit X ("I'm also assaulting unit X"). Without this declaration, I'm not allowed to move into B2B with models from unit X. (pg 34, moving assaulting models)
4b. Now only models I can move into B2B are the Rhino and the models from marine unit X. Rhino is engaged, so I must try to move next terminator into B2B with model from marine unit X if I can.
4c. I move terminator D in B2B with an unengaged marine from squad X so that I end up within coherency of either terminator A, B or C. (first bullet point, second bullet point) NOTE: the marine model from squad X terminator D assaults doesn't have to be the one that's closest to terminator D. (pg 34, moving assaulting models, assaulting multiple enemy units)

5a. Now only models I can move into B2B are the Rhino and the models from marine unit X. Rhino is engaged and so is one model from marine unit X.
5b. Terminator E must now move B2B with unengaged marine from unit X if he can. If he can't do that, he must either try to move to B2B with either the marine that's engaged by terminator D or Rhino. Obviously he must still stay in coherency (


Now, please quote the exact rule I'm braking, taking into account the context of the rules.So when quoting rules from pg 34, "moving assaulting models", you need to replace text "enemy model" / "opposing model" with "enemy model from unit(s) you have chosen to assault".
If you don't do this, the rules break, because 1) You're required to move into B2B with ALL enemy models from ANY enemy unit you can (even those you're not assaulting) and 2) You're not allowed to move into B2B with models from enemy units you're not assaulting.

Edit: changed last "declared assault against" to "chosen to assault" as declared could have been interpreted to mean only the original assault declaration.

I find it interesting that he is using almost the exact same "rules" as Abandon did when he tried to get us to think that a multi-assult was mandatory (if possible). We all know how that one ended...

Happyjew wrote:I find it interesting that he is using almost the exact same "rules" as Abandon did when he tried to get us to think that a multi-assult was mandatory (if possible). We all know how that one ended...

That's because it's essentially the same argument.
If I'm going to multi-assault, I have to move every model as if I've already started the multi-assault. But if I don't want to multi-assault, but change my mind during movement... what happens then?

Nemesor Dave wrote:Luide, I'm afraid you have the assault rules completely wrong.

I suggest you reread page 34 completely to understand better.

Thank you, but I do understand them just fine. You, on other hand...

Nemesor Dave wrote:That part on page 34. ..may not move into B2B with enemies from a unit they are not assaulting.
When you do a multi-assault (from the "assaulting multiple enemy units" on the same page) you are assaulting the 2nd unit, so the 2nd unit becomes a unit you are assaulting. This is not a restriction against being in B2B with more than 1 unit unless somehow that enemy unit is excluded from the assault.

So far I agree. Only restriction is that you must be "assaulting" such unit before you move into B2B with it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:You never need to declare the 2nd unit because it is not the target of the assault.

And now I disagree. You need to "declare" that you're assaulting the second unit, because you're not allowed to move into B2B with second unit, unless you "declare" that you're assaulting it. Note that this "declare" is not the same declare as is used in the start of the assault phase. Better wording would probably be "choose to assault"

Bolded and underlined parts are my additions

Nemesor Dave wrote:
The actual rules for how you get into a multi assault are very specific. You cannot just move your models into B2B with any enemy unit within range while merely keeping coherency.
1) declare the (1) unit your assaulting and move the closest model first in a straight line into B2B with the closest enemy model from the target unit.

Multi-assault rules are no more specific than normal assault rules really. And you seem to have misunderstood them, badly. Step 1 is required, but after that it works completely opposite of what you just said.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
2) one by one move each of your models into B2B with an unengaged enemy model from the target unit or from another unit you have chosen to multiassault against.

You're required to move into B2B with unengaged model from any unit you're assaulting. It doesn't have to be original target after step 1.

Nemesor Dave wrote: 3) no more uneganged enemy models from any enemy unit you're assaulting within movement range? Instead now move within 2" of one of your models from the unit already in B2B

This is correct, with my additions. Note that you can also multiassault at this point.

Nemesor Dave wrote: 4) out of room and can't do #3 either? Now move anywhere in coherency with your unit - even in B2B with a 2nd unit.

Technically correct, except the choice to multi-assault or not to multiassault can be done at any step after 1. And you still need to "declare"/say that you're also assaulting 2nd unit before you can move into B2B with it.

There's absolutely no rules support for your position that multi-assault can only be done if you are unable to move into B2B with a model from original target unit. Actual rules for moving multi-assaulting models:

pg 34, Assaulting multiple enemy units wrote: "As usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving
assaulting models."

I see absolutely no way one can interpret this as "you must first move all your units B2B with the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Only after that you're allowed to assault models belonging to other enemy units".

Of course in normal play, the fact that someone moves model in B2B with a 2nd squad is implicit multi-assault declaration and rarely you'd hear person to actually say "I'm also assaulting the 2nd squad" before moving the model.

jbunny wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
The actual rules for how you get into a multi assault are very specific. You cannot just move your models into B2B with any enemy unit within range while merely keeping coherency.

1) declare the (1) unit your assaulting and move the closest model first in a straight line into B2B with the closest enemy model.
2) one by one move each of your models into B2B with an unengaged enemy model from the target unit
3) no more uneganged enemy models within movement range? Instead now move within 2" of one of your models from the unit already in B2B
4) out of room and can't do #3 either? Now move anywhere in coherency with your unit - even in B2B with a 2nd unit.

This is called multi assault from the same page.

They way you describe it, it would seem that you can only assault a second unit once you have max models in b2b with the first unit. This is not true. The only thing is you must declare A target of your assault. You must then move the closest to the closest. After that first model has moved, you are free to move any model into B2B (or within 2" of a modle that has already moved if not able to get in B2B) with the first unit. Or at anytime you may declare a multicharge, and move into b2b with a second unit.

We agree up until you declare a multicharege and are free to move any model into B2B with any model.

Multicharge is not declared. I happens when as described p.34 BRB "As you are moving assaulting models you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting"

This reaffirms - you are assaulting ONE unit.

The exact order and way you can move your models is strictly described on the same page which I think we agree on.

After getting 1 model in B2B with the target enemy unit, you must keep moving models into B2B. You are partially correct. If the enemy unit is close enough that your attacking unit can get a model in B2B with unit 2 while keeping coherency then you can do what you described. I see what you mean, and in this point you have corrected me.

The situation that you'll find most, and the one with the original poster is that the two enemy units are far enough away that it requires having a "bridge model" - an model that is in coherency but that is not in B2B with any model from the target enemy unit. For this to be allowed, there must be no place to put that model in B2B with the original target unit to allow it to be on its own (in coherency) and halfway between the two enemy units so that another model can be placed in B2B with the 2nd enemy unit.

In this case, without that model that is not in B2B, the attacking unit would not be able to reach the 2nd unit. If there is a place to put that bridge model in B2B with the unit the assault was declared against, then it is not allowed to be placed out of B2B in between the two units, cannot act as a bridge, and the multi assault is not possible.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:
And now I disagree. You need to "declare" that you're assaulting the second unit, because you're not allowed to move into B2B with second unit, unless you "declare" that you're assaulting it. Note that this "declare" is not the same declare as is used in the start of the assault phase. Better wording would probably be "choose to assault."

As long as by "declare" you don't actually mean you "must declare multi assault". JBunny actually cleared some things up for both of us and my responses to him answer most of your other comments.

Thank you ALL for your replies, and for making clear arguments both for and against.

I want to point out something that might have been interpreted the wrong way:

There was no model floating out alone to ensure the unit had coherency when it multi-assaulted. That was not the issue. The 'floating' model was, (quoting myself) --'One termy is left out of base contact with anything but his own squad, most of which are against the rhino'-- This termy was based up against the termies assaulting the rhino. He did not have enough movement with that model to swing around to base the rhino, but he could have reached an unbased troop model from the multi-assault target, taking him through a crater.

If memory serves, he moved this model last. I would not have insisted on the order of movement mattering, as it might have been needlessly time-consuming while reaching the same result, a multi-charge. What I had been led to believe through my own experiences is that this scenario requires a DC check as the 'floater' now falls under the 'must attempt to engage as many enemy units as possible' part of the rules. It was his choice to multi-assault. I always thought the 'No holding back,' part was pretty clear, and put there just to avoid this very discussion, but I see the other side of things now too. In games, we see models moved back to correct a mistake or an unforeseen circumstance, so I did not see a problem with the order of movement mattering in that case either.

I greatly appreciate those who took the time to review this, and especially those that did so by quoting rules. Thanks for your time.

This kind of situation is why we have a house rule that requires you to declare multiple assaults before moving any assaulting models.

Marshal Severarse wrote:There was no model floating out alone to ensure the unit had coherency when it multi-assaulted. That was not the issue. The 'floating' model was, (quoting myself) --'One termy is left out of base contact with anything but his own squad, most of which are against the rhino'-- This termy was based up against the termies assaulting the rhino. He did not have enough movement with that model to swing around to base the rhino, but he could have reached an unbased troop model from the multi-assault target, taking him through a crater.

He was termed the "floater" not because he was bridging between units or anything, but because his attacks could float to either the rhino or the troops.
Where he was actually located has no relevance on the discussion.

If memory serves, he moved this model last. I would not have insisted on the order of movement mattering, as it might have been needlessly time-consuming while reaching the same result, a multi-charge. What I had been led to believe through my own experiences is that this scenario requires a DC check as the 'floater' now falls under the 'must attempt to engage as many enemy units as possible' part of the rules. It was his choice to multi-assault. I always thought the 'No holding back,' part was pretty clear, and put there just to avoid this very discussion, but I see the other side of things now too. In games, we see models moved back to correct a mistake or an unforeseen circumstance, so I did not see a problem with the order of movement mattering in that case either.

Correcting an illegal move is fine. The floater's move was 100% legal if he moved before the troop squad was assaulted. You can't go back and re-evaluate a move to see if it was illegal after it was already legal.
In multi-assaults, I *always* insist on movement order mattering. Because it absolutely does.

If the "floating" model was moved last, then what he did might have been illegal as he would have to try to get into base contact with either the rhino or the troop next to it. If neither was possible THEN he could move into as close as possible towards the rhino.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Luide wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote: But at that point you are being dishonest, and are willingly choosing to make an illegal move, for you know the rules and must follow said rules. There is no rule as far as I know that circumvents rules in this game. You must move into B2B.

Rules specify that I CANNOT move in to B2B with any other unit expect the one(s) I'm assaulting at that point. Explicitly.
"This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting. " (pg 34, moving assaulting models, emphasis mine)

Kapitalist-Pig wrote: Addtionally, you never delcare a multiple assault,

Luide wrote:3. Terminator C is so far out, that he cannot get into B2B with Rhino. I move him in coherency with either terminator A or B. (fourth bullet, pg 34 ) NOTE: It doesn't matter if the marine squad is within 6 inches of C or if there is any difficult terrain between them. I haven't yet declared assault against the marine squad and thus terminator C is not allowed to move B2B with them.

Is where you fall apart on this section.

First, one has to declare multiple assault. Because unless you're declaring to be assaulting unit B in addition to unit A, you're not allowed to move into B2B with unit B. Second: At that point I have broken absolutely no rules at this point. Fact that I'm planning on assaulting the marines later doesn't matter as I haven't declared them to be targets yet.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:The moment you decide to make a multi-charge, is when you are bound by the rules to follow all of them and must attempt to make base to base. Otherwise you are gaming the rules and are cheating.

I agree with this.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Simply put there is no multi-charge declaration, so you are at all times required to, if making the choice to do a multi-charge, to follow all the rules invovled in assaulting which include the
second bullet point, and No holding back.

Here you go wrong. At some point, you MUST declare that your unit X is assaulting unit B besides unit A. And this is the crux of the issue. Without this declaration, you're not allowed to move into B2B.
We know that multi-assault doesn't have to be declared before I start moving models:
"As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting." (pg 34, assaulting multiple enemy units)
In my example, I decided to multi-assault at point 4. After which I have two enemy units I can (and must) assault.

Or is your argument that I must declare multi-assault the moment it's possible, and if I don't do it then, I can't do it later? I see absolutely no rules that would support this reading.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Also, under assaulting multiple enemy units page 34, second paragraph, "As usual... Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they are following the rules for moving assaulting models...." This section does not give a time frame other then as usual the first model must move directly into contact of the delcared unit. So tells us that after the first move, we must maintain coherency and so on and so forth. Which means that if they can reach base contact with another model, and you are going to assault said unit, you must attempt to move every model into base contact, even if terrain is in the way and are now required to roll and see if the can make the assualt. There is no middle ground, no way around, no tunnel under, no flight over and no example where once you decide to assault the second unit, you can make it so you do not have to attempt to. All your moves must follow the assault rules.

All my moves in my example followed assault rules to the verbatim at each step. Here is the example, revised so that pre- and postconditions are more obvious at each step:

Lets say I have unit of 5 terminators, A to E. There are 2 hostile units within 6" of terminator unit, Rhino and marine squad X. There's also difficult terrain between terminator C and marine unit X.

1a. I declare assault on Rhino with my terminator unit. NOTE: It doesn't matter if I could reach marine squad X with Terminator A.
1b. At this point, Rhino is the only enemy model I'm allowed to move into B2B.
1c. Terminator A is closest to the Rhino. I move terminator A into B2B with Rhino. (pg 34). The enemy unit (Rhino) is now engaged.

2a. At this point, Rhino is the only enemy model I'm allowed to move into B2B, so there are no unengaged enemy models in the assault.
2b. I move terminator B into B2B with Rhino. (third bullet, pg 34). NOTE: It doesn't matter if I could reach marine squad X with Terminator B.

3a. At this point, Rhino is the only enemy model I'm allowed to move into B2B, so there are no unengaged enemy models in the assault.
3b. Terminator C is so far out, that he cannot get into B2B with Rhino. NOTE: It doesn't matter if the marine squad is within 6 inches of C or if there is any difficult terrain between them. I haven't yet declared assault against the marine squad and thus terminator C is not allowed to move B2B with them.
3c. I move Terminator C into coherency with either terminator A or B. (fourth bullet, pg 34)

4a. I decide to multi-assault. I declare I'm assaulting marine unit X ("I'm also assaulting unit X"). Without this declaration, I'm not allowed to move into B2B with models from unit X. (pg 34, moving assaulting models)
4b. Now only models I can move into B2B are the Rhino and the models from marine unit X. Rhino is engaged, so I must try to move next terminator into B2B with model from marine unit X if I can.
4c. I move terminator D in B2B with an unengaged marine from squad X so that I end up within coherency of either terminator A, B or C. (first bullet point, second bullet point) NOTE: the marine model from squad X terminator D assaults doesn't have to be the one that's closest to terminator D. (pg 34, moving assaulting models, assaulting multiple enemy units)

5a. Now only models I can move into B2B are the Rhino and the models from marine unit X. Rhino is engaged and so is one model from marine unit X.
5b. Terminator E must now move B2B with unengaged marine from unit X if he can. If he can't do that, he must either try to move to B2B with either the marine that's engaged by terminator D or Rhino. Obviously he must still stay in coherency (


Now, please quote the exact rule I'm braking, taking into account the context of the rules.So when quoting rules from pg 34, "moving assaulting models", you need to replace text "enemy model" / "opposing model" with "enemy model from unit(s) you have chosen to assault".
If you don't do this, the rules break, because 1) You're required to move into B2B with ALL enemy models from ANY enemy unit you can (even those you're not assaulting) and 2) You're not allowed to move into B2B with models from enemy units you're not assaulting.

Edit: changed last "declared assault against" to "chosen to assault" as declared could have been interpreted to mean only the original assault declaration.

This post pwns KP's argument so bad that there is absolutely nothing else I could possibly even try to add to this debate. This is EXACTLY per the rules detailed to a "T". Outstanding joub Luide!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:KP - and, again, you entirely lack ANY rule ANYWHERE forcing you to do so. Not a single rule, anywhere, states that if you INTEND to make a multiple assault you must treat every single model moving as if it were asaulting all units.

No such rule exists. Until a model moves into btb with a second unit, it is a single assault, and you are *prohibited* from moving into btb with any model in a unit you are not assaulting.

This means that, at the time you move the bridging model, this is a single assault, and is a legal move. You then have no permission to go back and remove a model that has already moved - despite being asked to find this permission a number of times now. You are claiming this choice is made only at the start of combat - despite the rules for multi assault stating this is allowed to be discovered half way through a move - apparently you just entirely ignore inconvenient rules!

It may be hard for you to accept just how wrong you are, but you really should do so at some point.

I agree Nos. He fails to comprehend the whole, "if during the course of an assault" part of the multi-assault rule. That means if out of a 10 man squad, I assault 9 models on target A, and discover "During the course of the assault" that the 10th model can get into base to base with a different unit, it is perfectly legal. Furthermore, I do not need to go back and take 7 of those 9 models that have already assaulted and move them into base to base with the secondary unit being assaulted.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote: you must make all your moves as if you are multi charging. You cannot hold any models back. So yes, you moving a guy within two inches of another guys who can assault a guy in another unit you charge with the next guy is an illegal move. You are holding back, and breaking the rule.

OMG. Now all of us have to multi-charge if possible. OMG

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:And no I don't think I am wrong because I have given you evidence to the contrary, one in which you all seem to be dismissing out of hand. I fail to see how you can disregard it and blather on about how I am wrong, and not even consider that you might very well be wrong, but to each their own.

That's because your interpretation is wrong. You are the one who is dismissing the facts out of hand.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Furthermore, BR if you can't add anything execpt a lame comment that doesn't add to the conversation, you are prohibited to do so in the YMDC rules.

I actually find your comments worse

Apparently K.Pig is the only one who cannot understand the English version of the rulebook. Is there a need to continue the discussion? I actually thought the multi-assault section was as detailed and clear as it could be. Now it seems i m wrong

He problem arises that all the rules you keep citing KP actually do more damage to your argument then help it. You dismiss that multi assault is an option that can arise DURING the course of an assault.

The TS explained a completely legal and valid move by moving two models into b2b with the Rhino and one that could not make b2b within coherency of the models in b2b. That is completely and 100% legal and a valid assault move. Now read the first damn paragraph of Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units;

As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting.

That clearly points that at any time while moving the assaulting models you can choose to multi assault a different unit. That could be after the first model is moved into b2b with the original target, the second to last model, or in this case, the fourth model.

You have zero standing to force the player to try and move that third model into base to base with the tactical squad after he has already made his assault move to the Rhino. You keep trying to make the "if possible" clause retroactive in the case of that third model of which you have zero permission to do so.

Brother Ramses wrote:He problem arises that all the rules you keep citing KP actually do more damage to your argument then help it. You dismiss that multi assault is an option that can arise DURING the course of an assault.

The TS explained a completely legal and valid move by moving two models into b2b with the Rhino and one that could not make b2b within coherency of the models in b2b. That is completely and 100% legal and a valid assault move. Now read the first damn paragraph of Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units;

As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting.

That clearly points that at any time while moving the assaulting models you can choose to multi assault a different unit. That could be after the first model is moved into b2b with the original target, the second to last model, or in this case, the fourth model.

You have zero standing to force the player to try and move that third model into base to base with the tactical squad after he has already made his assault move to the Rhino. You keep trying to make the "if possible" clause retroactive in the case of that third model of which you have zero permission to do so.

There are a few different scenarios here.

To be clear where do you and KP stand in this case:

1) you have two enemy units 1.5" apart.
2) you declare your 5 man unit is assaulting enemy unit A
3) 4 of your models can make it into B2B with enemy unit A, but the 5th model cannot, however it is possible for it to be placed in B2B with enemy unit B

Question: MUST you put model 5 in B2B with enemy unit B? Are you allowed to simply place it in coherency but not in B2B with any enemy (since it can't reach enemy unit A)?

No, because multi-assault is optional. It also has no set declaration or trigger as when you can perform it. You can choose not to multi assault, you can choose it after the first model is in b2b, or after the ninth model is in base to base. As long as you keep following the rules for moving assaulting models.

KP - you must make all your moves as if you are multi charging

WRONG. There is NO rule that supports this statement, in fact the rule you PERSISTENTLY and dishonestly keep on ignoring states the exact opposite - that *during* assault moves you find it is possible to multi assault

You are, quite simply, wrong. You are atetmpting to say multi assaults, if possible, are mandatory, which is so far from the truth that it is just laughable.

nosferatu1001 wrote:KP - you must make all your moves as if you are multi charging

WRONG. There is NO rule that supports this statement, in fact the rule you PERSISTENTLY and dishonestly keep on ignoring states the exact opposite - that *during* assault moves you find it is possible to multi assault

You are, quite simply, wrong. You are atetmpting to say multi assaults, if possible, are mandatory, which is so far from the truth that it is just laughable.

Nos, say something contrary to me so we can argue. Geesh, you have gotten boring! Hahahaha!

Brother Ramses wrote:He problem arises that all the rules you keep citing KP actually do more damage to your argument then help it. You dismiss that multi assault is an option that can arise DURING the course of an assault.

The TS explained a completely legal and valid move by moving two models into b2b with the Rhino and one that could not make b2b within coherency of the models in b2b. That is completely and 100% legal and a valid assault move. Now read the first damn paragraph of Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units;

As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting.

That clearly points that at any time while moving the assaulting models you can choose to multi assault a different unit. That could be after the first model is moved into b2b with the original target, the second to last model, or in this case, the fourth model.

You have zero standing to force the player to try and move that third model into base to base with the tactical squad after he has already made his assault move to the Rhino. You keep trying to make the "if possible" clause retroactive in the case of that third model of which you have zero permission to do so.

Actually BR and Nos if you keep reading assaulting multiple enemy units it says, "As usual.... delcared. Then the remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, [b][i][u] As long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models...." So you see right there, that combined with no holding back and after the first model reaches bases to base, if you are multi charging you are required to by the RAW to move every one of your models if possible into base to base.

Futhermore, if you all would like to actually read what I am writing it would be awesome, seeings how you are not quoting me correctly and obviously not understanding me. I never, ever, ever said that it is mandatory to multi-charge if you are in range. Nor will I ever say that. You can see that in my posts with the relevant if you choose to, have chosen to, parts of the posts I have submitted. So please kindly stop trying to make me look stupid and learn to read and understand what people are posting. We will all get along great!

God I misss the days when nos argued with just about everybody. Too many people have come to realize for the most part nos knows what he is talking about.

KP - when do you decide if you're multi charging? After te first model moved? Before any?

Moving the floater 3rd meant there was currently no multi charge. That didn't exist until the 4th model moved.

Is your assertion that the 3rd model must have based the infantry because the player "intended" to multi assault?

Quite simply yes, by the rules it says that you may find it possible to assault another unit, after the first model is moved into contact with the unit that has the assault declared, you must follow all the rules for moving into assault, at which point if you are choosing to assault a second unit you must follow all of the rules after the first model reaches b2b with a model in the first unit. You are not allowed to hold back. You must if possible reach b2b with unegaged enemy models if you are chooseing to multi-charge.

And if I don't intend to multi assault at first, but change my mind when I start moving the 4th model?

KP - so youre saying you must make all moves as if they are a multi assault, but youre not forced to multi assault? We've read what youre writing, its just that it doesnt make a huge amount of sense, as youre ignoring rules, quoting out of context, and contradicting yourself.

The 3rd model was unable to reach btb with the rhino, and this is a single assault at this point. Agreed? Yes or No.

You move the 4th model, and decide you CAN reach btb with another unit - are you forced to? Yes, or No

If you decide to reach btb with the 4th model, are you saying you have to go back to the 3rd model and see if it can reach btb with the NEW 2nd unit you assaulted with the 4th model? Yes or No

Answer every quesiton, or it will be assumed you cannot answer anything so simple or clear.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Quite simply yes, by the rules it says that you may find it possible to assault another unit, after the first model is moved into contact with the unit that has the assault declared, you must follow all the rules for moving into assault, at which point if you are choosing to assault a second unit you must follow all of the rules after the first model reaches b2b with a model in the first unit. You are not allowed to hold back. You must if possible reach b2b with unegaged enemy models if you are chooseing to multi-charge.

And again you dismiss completely that the first paragraph of the multi-assault rules that staes that, "AS YOU MOVE ASSAULTING MODELS, .....". Of course you keep dismissing it because it destroys your argument.

Here is the deal; by your stance, unless you can multi-assault immediately after thethe first model is in base to base, you can never multi-assault. You are saying that you must determine that a multiassault is possible after the first model is in b2b and then must move accordingly to the assault rules for movement. The problem lies in that is not what the rule quote above specifically says. A multiassault may not be possible until after the fifth or sixth model has piled in on the initial assault that closes the space between two units to maintain coherency. Your stance does not allow that as you are saying that the multiassault must be determined after the first model is in base to base.

So many multiassault fail topics lately as if it was just introduced into the game.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Quite simply yes, by the rules it says that you may find it possible to assault another unit, after the first model is moved into contact with the unit that has the assault declared, you must follow all the rules for moving into assault, at which point if you are choosing to assault a second unit you must follow all of the rules after the first model reaches b2b with a model in the first unit. You are not allowed to hold back. You must if possible reach b2b with unegaged enemy models if you are chooseing to multi-charge.

And again you dismiss completely that the first paragraph of the multi-assault rules that staes that, "AS YOU MOVE ASSAULTING MODELS, .....". Of course you keep dismissing it because it destroys your argument.

Here is the deal; by your stance, unless you can multi-assault immediately after thethe first model is in base to base, you can never multi-assault. You are saying that you must determine that a multiassault is possible after the first model is in b2b and then must move accordingly to the assault rules for movement. The problem lies in that is not what the rule quote above specifically says. A multiassault may not be possible until after the fifth or sixth model has piled in on the initial assault that closes the space between two units to maintain coherency. Your stance does not allow that as you are saying that the multiassault must be determined after the first model is in base to base.

So many multiassault fail topics lately as if it was just introduced into the game.

I have highlighted the important part that you have failed yet again to read and understand. Both are bolded etc you you can see I am not dismissing, but am actually proving to you what it means.

It is in fact the opposite. I am saying in the example given by the op that the opposing player, from which I understand, and have read multiple times. Moved one of his models into coherency, but not into base contact in order to avoid rolling a dt test. Which is against the rules. Furthurmore, as long as you follow the rules for assaulting and moved you models into b2b with as many as you can, and staying in coherency, even if it is the fifth or sixth one you can multi-charge, but at that point you have already decided to multi-charge, and are bound by the assault rules, and if you have moved them in such a way as into b2b and so on then you can move them into b2b with another unit. It is a very complex thing, again I did say in this thread that you can have linking models, just that you have to follow the assault rules. So, if you can reach b2b you have to, after into coherency which creates the linking model, then into other unit. But if you can reach b2b, with your would be linking model you must reach there, and will have to have another linking model.

I guess the second bullet point makes no matter to you guys seeing how you think you can gloss over it with but I didn't delcare against the other unit. Here's the problem, they left it open purposefully for multi-assaults, because ironcially, they thought ahead in this section... (I mean wow this is like the only section they did this in!) So "If possible, the model must move into base contact with anu enemy models within reach that is not already in base contact with and assaulting model", while also maintaining coherency. This means that if you can reach b2b, while maintaing coherency, you must move into base to base contact, which means you are required to exhaust all models who can reach base contact before moving just into coherency, as that is the fourth bullet point and after having to move into base contact with a model already in base contact.

So at that point you could move a linking model to assault another unit, but not before.

The OP claimed that the free-floating model was the last model moved in a later post. If the free-floater was moved last, yes, he would have had to make a DT terrain test, and quite possibly would not have been able to assault either unit. However, his original post did not specify the order the models were moved in. If the model was moved before multi-assaulting it would have been legal.