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If you're playing to have fun, you shouldn't be too worried about winning. Not telling your opponent what is in the transport is going to be a good way to not find another game at that store.

If you're at a tournament and really want to win, just ask the TO what the rule is. If you are allowed to not tell your opponent, tell him with a smile on your face and a pat on the back, so it doesn't tank your sportsmanship score.

Since my tau's Devilfishes both have 6 basic fire warriors riding in them, I don't even bother keeping track of what squad is in which fish. I just say "All Devilfishes have fire warriors".

The players at my local game store always seem to be happy to diclose the contents of transports, and of course appreciate the same level of disclosure from their opponents. Often people just do the surfing thing with models from the transported units, or they will simply volunteer the info without having to be asked. I think that is a good policy as it keeps things nice and friendly. I always disclose the content of transports.

you should just make an army all in transports and when he asks just say well just gatta pop em out and find out now dont we?

Commissar41.0 wrote:you should just make an army all in transports and when he asks just say well just gatta pop em out and find out now dont we?

technically its exactly what the guy fields, it's all dire avengers in transports. 2 of them are special that they have an attached IC (farseer and ashurman the phenoix lord or something). One of which has a board wide effect (runes of warding on the farseer). Playing guess the farseer's transport is essentially what's going on atm. Somewhat annoying given that I have alot of psychic powers on alot of stuff as GK.

I always have a unique unit from the squad surfing the transport to identify them. I never openly say what is in each transport, but if asked, I am more then happy to tell my opponent.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Because you chose to respond to me?

Anyhow, gon' help ya' out since yer not so good at the close readin':

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If he won't tell you, he should still have to document which squad was where.

I think it's fair that he doesn't have to disclose the contents of transports, but he should be able to prove it when the models disembark. Make him have cards, or scraps of paper he can keep face down until they disembark.

And yet, that's not what you wrote in the post I quoted, implying a change in opinion. Just like I said in my last post.

'Cause you can't remember, here it is again for you

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
Keeping passengers secret is simply a way of slowing the game down way more than necessary, and is borderline-TFG behaviour.

I don't waste my time with that kind of players.

Me too. I hate it when there is strategy in my tabeltop strategy games.

Boarderline TFG, slows the game down, and is against the rules. If you're not telling you're opponent what's in your transports when asked, you're cheating. You're welcome to play that way if you wish, but you'd get no games from me or anyone I know in real life. If people you play against play that way, cool, just make sure your location is in your avatar info area so at least I can avoid that place at all costs.

OP have a read of P.92 "A Note on Secrecy"

it specifies that "To keep things fair, you should show your opponent your roster after the game. in the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

So you do need to clearly identify what squad is within which transport. This includes squads with different wargear.

Say I have 3 transports with 10 men in each, I also have to tell the opponent which squad has the two meltagun, which squad has the meltagun and power sword, and which squad has the meltagun and power fist.

To deny the opponent this information is not "always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle"

Yup. Same answer as every time this question comes up: Yes, I DO tell my opponent what is in what transport.

I think you have to. And your opponent does too. Otherwise they could be cheating and swap the squads around without you knowing. Disclosure is the only way to keep the game honest. For non-competitive play, I would think you would disclose just because it's the friendly n sportsmenlike thing to do.

"A NOTE ON SECRECY
To keep things fair. you should always allow your
opponent to read your force roster after cl game. In the
same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which
squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

It's right there in the rulebook. To do otherwise is cheating. And as mentioned there is a clause about discussing beforehand, but it isn't about transports. It specifically references discussing whether you can look at your opponent's list before or during a game.

If he asks, yes. Its usually polite to do so and i usually say so before the match starts.

Its a case of you make the call. it says in rules that some people play and know what everyone has and other people like the sense of mystery and shock. I havent been to a tournament where you can chose not to disclose information to an opponent.

According to the rules, you must disclose which units are in which transports. And, due to WYSIWYG, all models should be obvious as to what wargear they have. The only things that aren't immediately disclosed by default are upgrades that are not modeled (Psychic Powers, Exarch abilities, some Tau battlesuit upgrades, etc).

IMO, it's best to lay out all that information as well.

Woah, calm down boys. If you're intelligent civilized people, you should be able to participate in a conversation without being judgmental and calling others "cheater".

The paragraph in the rulebook about this issue is very clear. There's no arguing that and it should be the rule of thumb for the majority of games.

Note however that it says "you should". Not "you must". This is consistent with GW's encouraging houseruling, which relies on the good will of each party (crazy uh ?).

So, if both you and your opponent are open-minded level-headed individuals, you have every right to agree not to disclose such information to add some spice to your game. It does make for more tactical depth. [insert mandatory Sun Tzu quote]
Of course, in adequation with my premise saying you're both quite the gentle(wo)men and intend to play fair, that would entail writing down the content of each transport and making sure each metal box is unmistakably recognizable so there's no room to pull sneaky shenanigans. You might even designate a referee.

Barring mutual agreement, however, it's just sleazy. sudojoe, I'd tend to think your opponent is just being a douche.

Personally I think fully disclosing list and transport details is in the best spirit of the game. You eliminate a lot of confusion and bad spirit through a few simple discussions prior and during the game.

Whilst there is some wiggle room in the rules to do otherwise, it’s a little cheesy IMO, especially when someone is running a fully meched out list and attempting a “ball in cups” strategy. I’ve read a quite a few tournament batreps where players attempt this strategy (often through sneaky ambiguous responses to questions when asked) and it is never received well. Using loopholes is poor sportsmanship IMO.

Hyd wrote:
Barring mutual agreement, however, it's just sleazy. sudojoe, I'd tend to think your opponent is just being a douche.

This was really all that was required. I second this.

In all honesty a certain amount of deception is acceptable but not to much. One this subject you dont have to say whats in your transports unless your opponent asks and then you have to be truthful about what squad is in there but not to truthful

(fe i have a rhino speed along the table top that my opponent has ignored focusing on my land raider. After my rhino is where i want it my melta gun chosen pop out and blow his predator up. My opponent wasnt aware of the squads presence but he says its ok he didnt ask. In another battle he remembered the rhino and targeted it but before he fired on it he asked what was in it and i gave him the honest answer that it was empty and i was tricking him into thinking it was loaded which is true. He then decided to target my dread instead ofcourse he once again lost his predator as forgot that my rhino had a combi melta)

Wait, how does an empty rhino have a combi melta?

Isn't it compulsary but it is Sportsman base to do so.

sudojoe wrote:Wait, how does an empty rhino have a combi melta?

Chaos Rhinos can, I believe.

I don't think there is any requirement at all.

Using cards is definitely a good idea for sportsmanship, but insisting that someone use them is a direct accusation of cheating.

DeathReaper wrote:OP have a read of P.92 "A Note on Secrecy"

it specifies that "To keep things fair, you should show your opponent your roster after the game. in the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

This exactly.

To the OP, if he won't tell you, stop playing him. Period. I would not put up with it. I'd rather not play at all than play with someone that refuses to tell me what is in each transport.

sudojoe wrote:Wait, how does an empty rhino have a combi melta?

Chaos rhinos can take combi-weapons. Fairly cheap, too.

My buddy and I secretly write down what's in each transport. Otherwise, even the best of friends can't get away from meta-gaming what vehicles to focus the fire on, and that's cheesy.

I would frankly refuse to tell another player what's in my transports. I'll show them the face-down slips that correspont to each one, so I can prove I'm not cheating, but no, I won't let you see which transport you can pop to specifically kill my best guys.

I think it is the right thing to do to give full disclosure unless it was agreed to before the game started.

Full disclosure all the way. It's what the rulebook says, and is easier for everyone.

I would only play without it in specific pre-arranged games with friends.

AegisGrimm wrote:I would frankly refuse to tell another player what's in my transports. I'll show them the face-down slips that correspont to each one, so I can prove I'm not cheating, but no, I won't let you see which transport you can pop to specifically kill my best guys.

That is fine for house rules and games where you talk about allowing that kind of play.

The rules tell us to identify which units are riding in which transport.
"always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle." (BRB 92)

full disclosure is the way to go.

personally i mark my lad raiders with names so i know which is which ithen set belial and the chaplain on them to let him know which ic is where

From a strategic stand point why should we be divulging what is each exact transport? It gives a benefit to your opponents in that they know exactly what transport they need to destroy to halt your momentum.

Now, I divulge because it's the norm, but when at home with buddies we don't. When we don't it is a more enjoyable game. There is an air of mystery of what is being fired upon.

Take WWII DDay for example; When the landing craft of the allies came ashore, did the Germans know which ones had the flamethrowers or the demolition charges?

Someone said it would slow down the game. Granted I can see the ability for some TFG to use this to cheat, but others have already proposed the solution. How would this slow the game down?

UsdiThunder wrote:
Take WWII DDay for example; When the landing craft of the allies came ashore, did the Germans know which ones had the flamethrowers or the demolition charges?

The Germans didn't have interstellar ranged precision scanners, alpha level psykers, super-human battle machines with centuries of experience, etc.

You're opponent gets to know because their army already knows. It's the same reason you roll dice to hit with a shooting attack rather than relying on the player's ability to throw a dart at the target. The armies are fighting, not the players.