Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One guy in the local group is an ok player but always refuses to say what's in what transport. "Just gotta pop them and find out" is what he says. Maybe it'd not be so bad but he plays eldar and none of his transports are painted. Trying to "find the runes of warding" is getting kind of old but is there a rule that says you have to tell your opponent what is in what? Or that just a sportsmanship thing?

I do believe you have to answer your opponent truthfully when asked a question like that. Not sure if its an actual rule, but it certainly is good form.

You do otherwise it could be anything. Alternatively have him put numbers on the bases of the tanks that correspond to certrain units.

For my DE, I didnt put the guy shooting on the venom/Raiders.... I put the actual model that is IN the vehicles on the model.

It helps me and my opponent, PLUS you cant cheat this way.

I could have 3 venoms and 1 gets popped... I could simply unload 5 wyches when in fact it was the 5 incubi, but no one knew but me =]

kind of BS if you ask me...

If he won't tell you, he should still have to document which squad was where.

I think it's fair that he doesn't have to disclose the contents of transports, but he should be able to prove it when the models disembark. Make him have cards, or scraps of paper he can keep face down until they disembark.

It depends on whom I am playing.

I thought it was in the rulebook, you have to tell your opponent everything. Your list, whats in reserve, whats in your transports....

If he refuses to be open and up front about what is in each transport, then at a minimum, I'd have him do the following:

1) Number each transport, either through paint, or a die turned to the correct number.
2) Have a number of index cards numbered to match the transports.
3) Have the contents of each transport written on the back of the index card.

I can understand wanting to have some sort of fog of war involved, but there is simply just too much room for mistakes or cheating to not have some sort of system involved to track them.

I tend to have the squad leader surfing on the top of it and the squads ordered off to the side away from reserves if any. I think the rule says you don't actually have to tell, but it saves a lot of confusion just being open about it. Avoids transports concealing teleportation devices.

I thought it was a rule to tell your opponent everything, especially if he asks. Unfortunately, I seem to be the only player in my local area going by that rule...

I'd refuse to play against someone like that. Let them keep their secrets.

Joey wrote:I'd refuse to play against someone like that. Let them keep their secrets.

This. i tried to keep the troops in my transports hidden once as i was against old dark eldar and i knew he would pop the tank open first turn making them useless, but he refused to play unless i told him.

You'll find that a lot of people just refuse to play against that.

Nom

In the BRB, you have a section called a note on secrecy. Players need to agree on how much information will be shared. This includes army lists and what unit is in which transport. In addition, IC that are joined to units must be declared. However, unit composition does not need to be shared. An alternative method for identifying the units inside can be used. So using SW as an example I cannot say,

"All my Rhinos have Grey Hunters in them."

However I can say,

"The Rhino with the red doors has a Grey Hunter pack in it with red shoulder pads, the Rhino with black doors has a Grey Hunter pack with black shoulder pads."

I have clearly identified which Grey Hunter pack is embarked in which transport.

At the shop I play at, we let each other know who is in what and usually have the one in charge on top of the vehicle.

I don't think I've ever not played against people that were more than happy to be as forthright as posible.

I don't think I'd play against that guy very often if at all if there are other people you can play with.

It's usually sitting just off the table for them to see anyway right?

If you've got someone there to GM then they can make sure your playing by the rules and you can keep it from the opponent. Otherwise you should really be honest in the interest of transparency.

It's all filled with dire avengers I know but one of them has ashurman and another has the farseer with the runes of warding. 3 other ones with just the dire avengers guys inside. They unfortunately can't surf well on top of the slopped eldar vehicles so they never get put on top. Mostly just having problems figuring out which has special characters in there... hate the damn runes of warding especially as GK

If you are playing with disclosed lists, then you need to show whats in each transport somehow, otherwise you could easily cheat.

Even if your playing with secret lists, you still need to show which unit is in which transport, even if you don't say whats exactly what.

Keeping passengers secret is simply a way of slowing the game down way more than necessary, and is borderline-TFG behaviour.

I don't waste my time with that kind of players.

Steelmage99 wrote:Keeping passengers secret is simply a way of slowing the game down way more than necessary, and is borderline-TFG behaviour.

I don't waste my time with that kind of players.

Me too. I hate it when there is strategy in my tabeltop strategy games.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Keeping passengers secret is simply a way of slowing the game down way more than necessary, and is borderline-TFG behaviour.

I don't waste my time with that kind of players.

Me too. I hate it when there is strategy in my tabeltop strategy games.

Does that actually require a response, or are you that dumb?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Keeping passengers secret is simply a way of slowing the game down way more than necessary, and is borderline-TFG behaviour.

I don't waste my time with that kind of players.

Me too. I hate it when there is strategy in my tabeltop strategy games.

3 card monte is not strategy.

There's no strategy involved in the concepts of deception or the unknown?

Strange. And I thought those were both at the very core of warfare. Must be a machination of the video game generation.

There was no suggestion from me of any kind of three card monte or unfair play. So long as the contents of the transports are fixed and documented, there's no need for total initial disclosure.

In fact, one might suggest, and they'd be quite correct, that it's almost against the very spirit of the game to have complete knowledge of the opponent's forces. I guess people take the idea of WYSIWYG too far.

Kind of curious but what do people in tournaments do?

It's in the rulebook under the note on secrecy section. If you both agree, you can play like that. If not, it's full disclosure.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There's no strategy involved in the concepts of deception or the unknown?

There's strategy, I neve said oterwise.

Strange. And I thought those were both at the very core of warfare. Must be a machination of the video game generation.

I believe it's a machination of your imagination.

There was no suggestion from me of any kind of three card monte or unfair play. So long as the contents of the transports are fixed and documented, there's no need for total initial disclosure.

There was no suggestion by you of any kind of fair play to begin with. Perhaps if you would have included the "So long as the contents of the transports are fixed and documented" in your quoted post, there would have been no room for missinterpretation.

In fact, one might suggest, and they'd be quite correct, that it's almost against the very spirit of the game to have complete knowledge of the opponent's forces.

That is not a fact.

I guess people take the idea of WYSIWYG too far.

Or the rulebook written by GW themselves...

I don't know why you chose to reply to me, but ok.

Because you chose to respond to me?

Anyhow, gon' help ya' out since yer not so good at the close readin':

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If he won't tell you, he should still have to document which squad was where.

I think it's fair that he doesn't have to disclose the contents of transports, but he should be able to prove it when the models disembark. Make him have cards, or scraps of paper he can keep face down until they disembark.

Officially, your opponent is entitled to know what units are in what transport. In friendly games, I'm not so big on it, but it is the law of the land in every tourney I've ever seen.

It's also a hot-button issue on the forums. Every thread I've ever seen on it has quickly degenerated into a flame war. People have very strong opinions on this issue, and I've seen people nearly come to blows over this arguement.

The rulebook says to discuss it before a game---it is not a firm rule. It is, however, customary that people disclose the information. I doubt many tournaments or very many serious players will allow three Rhino monte. (edited for clarity, maybe)

My opinion is that it's better to be safe than sorry, so disclose what's in the transport to avoid arguments.

However, if you know the person and want to play a more "Realistic" 40k game, then keep it secret but have index cards and markings on the tanks to show who's in what . Show him or her them once the "cat's out of the bag" so to speak.