Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

-666- wrote:I see Lychguard with shields as a very serious deterrent to mech. The shields are key.

Can't you just shoot them from 7" away? Mech armies can move and shoot, so just move everything out of bounce range before you open fire. No IG weapon is any less effective against Lychguard at 7" than it is at 6".

Yes, the Lychguard can be mown down easily with no shields. But as stated the sheilds are key. You'll need to take out the monolith pretty soon, and lets assume the manticore got cooked by lightening (for purposes of the next bit)

All of your meltavets open fire onto the monolith. You are wanting to kill it so you are under 6" range of the lith. It will probably result in a weapon destroyed/immobilised (going from experience) Weapon destroyed can be fixed by a spyder with a claw array, Immobilised is a massive AV14 firepower sink on your doorstep.

Considering the 6" range to the lith for the melta effect, you are within 6" of the Lychguard. At 6" from the lychguard, you can get reflected at even if they fired from a chimera hatch, the chimera will be melted. Then our turn come and the lychguard move away from the portal, another squad (say some immortals) come through the portal then in shooting the Immortals rapid fire at any exposed infantry, and the whip is dropped on the nearest tank (assuming it hasn't been destroyed)

All I'm trying to say is even with searchlights, you'll be hard pressed to kill the lith before it gets in melta range


EDIT2: Also lords can be weaponised at S7 T5 2+/3++ so they won't be that easy to kill

LoL Lychguard without shields, you might as well just bring praetorians and have fearless JI.

Kevin949 wrote:LoL Lychguard without shields, you might as well just bring praetorians and have fearless JI.

Thats my point
you will never find Lychguard without shields. The Monolith is a b*tch to kill without melta, and by the time they can melt, the shots can be bounced, so it's a win/win for crons

EDIT: techniquely, it's a win/win/win because if the squad is in melt range then the lith can automaticly see the vets (melt range = six. lowest possible night fight = six (snake eyes tripled

wait, I'm confused. If I'm shooting at the monolith, all I'm doing is trading you a 170 points melta vets and a chimera which I'm assuming that you'll basically wipe out in cc next turn or via shooting (your points investment is like what? 600 points in this combo?) How are you bouncing things if I'm shooting at the lith?

Also in this scenario, we are assuming we let the lith close in all the way since IG went in reserves to dodge imotek right? Wouldn't I see the monolith comming and deploy alot of stuff decently far away or are you deep striking the monolith?

IHateNids wrote:Yes, the Lychguard can be mown down easily with no shields. But as stated the sheilds are key. You'll need to take out the monolith pretty soon, and lets assume the manticore got cooked by lightening (for purposes of the next bit)

All of your meltavets open fire onto the monolith. You are wanting to kill it so you are under 6" range of the lith. It will probably result in a weapon destroyed/immobilised (going from experience) Weapon destroyed can be fixed by a spyder with a claw array, Immobilised is a massive AV14 firepower sink on your doorstep.

Considering the 6" range to the lith for the melta effect, you are within 6" of the Lychguard. At 6" from the lychguard, you can get reflected at even if they fired from a chimera hatch, the chimera will be melted. Then our turn come and the lychguard move away from the portal, another squad (say some immortals) come through the portal then in shooting the Immortals rapid fire at any exposed infantry, and the whip is dropped on the nearest tank (assuming it hasn't been destroyed)

All I'm trying to say is even with searchlights, you'll be hard pressed to kill the lith before it gets in melta range


EDIT2: Also lords can be weaponised at S7 T5 2+/3++ so they won't be that easy to kill

Based on my experience, this is a really outlandish scenario. I can't get any of my 7 chimeras within 6" of a monolith without also being within 6" of some Lychguard? Somehow the 24 meltaguns in my army (at 1750) aren't able to put down the monolith? Then, because I'm so scared of my chimeras being charged by guys with str5 power weapons, I feel like I should shoot meltaguns at them from close range--knowing that the shots could bounce and kill my tanks--even though I have perfectly good lasguns I could shoot at them instead? I might not kill any of them, but might as well hit them with the extra str3 shots, since it's not much different from just ignoring them and then driving away next turn.

Or let the warscythe lord charge a tank. If he can manage to hit it, and kill it, I got six more.

Strategies that depend on your opponent's stupidity don't typically produce consistent results.

sudojoe wrote:wait, I'm confused. If I'm shooting at the monolith, all I'm doing is trading you a 170 points melta vets and a chimera which I'm assuming that you'll basically wipe out in cc next turn or via shooting (your points investment is like what? 600 points in this combo?) How are you bouncing things if I'm shooting at the lith?

Also in this scenario, we are assuming we let the lith close in all the way since IG went in reserves to dodge imotek right? Wouldn't I see the monolith comming and deploy alot of stuff decently far away or are you deep striking the monolith?

I said that if you shoot the lith with melta then you are in range to be reflected at, not you would be reflected at

Also, either way the lith will get close to your lines, even if it walks, unless you get jammy with the manticore


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote:


Based on my experience, this is a really outlandish scenario. I can't get any of my 7 chimeras within 6" of a monolith without also being within 6" of some Lychguard? Somehow the 24 meltaguns in my army (at 1750) aren't able to put down the monolith? Then, because I'm so scared of my chimeras being charged by guys with str5 power weapons, I feel like I should shoot meltaguns at them from close range--knowing that the shots could bounce and kill my tanks--even though I have perfectly good lasguns I could shoot at them instead? I might not kill any of them, but might as well hit them with the extra str3 shots, since it's not much different from just ignoring them and then driving away next turn.

Or let the warscythe lord charge a tank. If he can manage to hit it, and kill it, I got six more.

Strategies that depend on your opponent's stupidity don't typically produce consistent results.

I never said that. I'm saying if you are coming for the portal side of the lith for melta range, and there are lychguard there then any shots that are put on that squad (even from that basilisk in the corner) can be ounced at the chimera/meltavets. That is all, regardless to if the lith survives or not

I said that if you shoot the lith with melta then you are in range to be reflected at, not you would be reflected at

Also, either way the lith will get close to your lines, even if it walks, unless you get jammy with the manticore

I don't even run a manticore in my regular lists anymore but so far I've almost always been able to get the drop on the monolith with melta vets by driving up to it and shooting whatever they got. Why would I shoot at the lich guard? They can go ahead and try to melee the chimera to death. That's fine with me. Again, I'm trading you like 170 (or was it 220 with the chimera? I forget anyways.) points against your 600 point combo. I'm totally fine with the melta vets dying. Good battles are always paid in many a guardsman's blood.

Also, even with your death star lichguard, I'm fine driving up 3 tanks worth of guys to shoot your lith with. You going to multicharge them all with str 5 weapons and a single warstaff on the lord needing 4's to hit and 5's to glance for most of the hits? I'll take them odds.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Based on my experience, this is a really outlandish scenario. I can't get any of my 7 chimeras within 6" of a monolith without also being within 6" of some Lychguard? Somehow the 24 meltaguns in my army (at 1750) aren't able to put down the monolith? Then, because I'm so scared of my chimeras being charged by guys with str5 power weapons, I feel like I should shoot meltaguns at them from close range--knowing that the shots could bounce and kill my tanks--even though I have perfectly good lasguns I could shoot at them instead? I might not kill any of them, but might as well hit them with the extra str3 shots, since it's not much different from just ignoring them and then driving away next turn.

Or let the warscythe lord charge a tank. If he can manage to hit it, and kill it, I got six more.

Strategies that depend on your opponent's stupidity don't typically produce consistent results.

Ok ok, hang on a second here...let's be realistic about this on both sides. You're saying his scenario is outlandish but keep in mind, the monolith teleport has unlimited range now, so yes if you're within 6" of the lith you are potentially within 6" of any non-vehicle necron unit on the board. Secondly, you say his scenario is outlandish but yet you propose a scenario as well that is equally outlandish where you still have every piece of your army intact by the time everything gets into your melta range. You and I both know that is not likely to happen either. At least not against an equally skilled opponent, since you brought that up too.

So, let's just stay grounded to reality (both of you and ihatenids).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sudojoe wrote:

I said that if you shoot the lith with melta then you are in range to be reflected at, not you would be reflected at

Also, either way the lith will get close to your lines, even if it walks, unless you get jammy with the manticore

I don't even run a manticore in my regular lists anymore but so far I've almost always been able to get the drop on the monolith with melta vets by driving up to it and shooting whatever they got. Why would I shoot at the lich guard? They can go ahead and try to melee the chimera to death. That's fine with me. Again, I'm trading you like 170 (or was it 220 with the chimera? I forget anyways.) points against your 600 point combo. I'm totally fine with the melta vets dying. Good battles are always paid in many a guardsman's blood.

Also, even with your death star lichguard, I'm fine driving up 3 tanks worth of guys to shoot your lith with. You going to multicharge them all with str 5 weapons and a single warstaff on the lord needing 4's to hit and 5's to glance for most of the hits? I'll take them odds.

Not taking into account the rest of the army that will likely be there is a one-sided observation. You talk about all your different options but only one option for the necrons. What if there are heavy d's in the list? A C'tan with the thunderbolt power? Tremorstaves? Writhing worldscape? Monolith particle whip hits your vehicle? Doomsday ark? Death Scythe? Tomb Spiders for can opening? Wraiths for counter charge/rending hits? Any amount of gauss weaponry that could at least slow your advance? I'm just saying, we have options too and this one unit/vehicle combo isn't the only bag of tricks.

I think we've crossed over into "I can think of a situation where your strat doesn't work therefore it's completely wrong" land.

I usually try to stay out of that place.

Basically there are good counters on both sides of the discussion. It's not one and done for either army. I do have to say I think there will be many situations where IG will not want to ride up all their transports on the doorstep of a well designed Necron army.

Why everyone use hellhound rather than banewolf, if I am not mistaken, the are both around the same amount of points.

Because the hellhound has it's funky rule that gives it an effective 12" extra range.

And the S6 instant kills scarabs and any T3 IC.

Having used both the hellhound is more useful due to the extra range, and definitely a good choice versus necrons.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I think we've crossed over into "I can think of a situation where your strat doesn't work therefore it's completely wrong" land.

I usually try to stay out of that place.

Good point, and noted.

Thanks all for the replies.

I been running into Immotek + immortals/warriors + wraiths/scarabs + spiders/annhilation barges as the basic list. sometimes with the tremor combo sometimes not.

This is one of my batrep vs Immotek crons look at game 2
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/435395.page

Reserve seems to be the way to go but coming in later losing firepower with necrons midway up the board and the turn 5 possibility to end still made it tough.

Haven't run into Lynchguard yet.

Hellhound might be worth trying but its cost is pretty high especially when you want to put a multimelta on it and you lose the 3rd Vendetta which hurts most other match ups and if they go wraith spam instead of scarabs the Hellhound effectiveness goes down.

Kirika wrote:Thanks all for the replies.

I been running into Immotek + immortals/warriors + wraiths/scarabs + spiders/annhilation barges as the basic list. sometimes with the tremor combo sometimes not.

This is one of my batrep vs Immotek crons look at game 2
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/435395.page

Reserve seems to be the way to go but coming in later losing firepower with necrons midway up the board and the turn 5 possibility to end still made it tough.

Haven't run into Lynchguard yet.

Hellhound might be worth trying but its cost is pretty high especially when you want to put a multimelta on it and you lose the 3rd Vendetta which hurts most other match ups and if they go wraith spam instead of scarabs the Hellhound effectiveness goes down.

I'd recommend looking into the hellhound a bit more, it's a total ace in the hole (as noted) versus scarabs, but even when they don't have scarabs, remember that most of the lists you run into in tournaments are full of 5 man immortal or warrior squads with crypteks, and warriors are 4+ armor. Flushing one of their troops (which they're usually light on) and a cryptek is still a very nice vehicle.

The other answer to wraiths/scarabs is probably a single infantry blob with commissar as bubble wrap, even if it dies when they assault, now they're standing in front of you for return fire. These are the two areas I'd look into to get an edge versus crons.

I have found that a pair of Griffons do wonders in this set up. On the night fight turns you get to reroll the scatter die making it way more likelly to hit. It's str6, so ID, blast so 2 bases each wound, and it fires indirectly so unless in area terrain no cover. Making them hide in cover makes it so they at least are not moving downfield toward me, and anytime they assault something they are nice and bunched. Lastly, I personally just take my lightnings to the face, smoke what cant shoot, and searchlight a couple units that need to die. I mean the lightning is great, but it's pretty unreliablle.

I run a aircav list my friends cron army is a pain any advice on how to take him down ?

Blow em to gak with lemun russ tanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cut them to feth with a billion Chimeras


Automatically Appended Next Post:
with 20 MG's

I played these necrons last Friday. First time fielding my guard and first time playing against necrons. I was familiar with the necron cheese and expected a loss. I did loose getting blown off the table on turn 4. My powerblob performed well though. I just need to change around the other 1000pts of my list. I think al Rahim might be the answer for me. I will try again next Friday and let you know how things work.

~Lion~

Thanks

target
Have to actually test the Hellhound both vs necrons in other matches. They seem ok vs crons but lackluster vs other mech lists. The last few times I ran into Hellhounds in the IG mirror they really didn't do much at all before they got blown up. Losing the 3rd Vendetta and the hell hound costing more then a Vendetta with multmelta makes them a hardsell. Haven't had time to get in any games lately though.

I was looking at the infantry blob but they are best if you start them on the board and that means you get nailed by immotek's lightning which really hurts if it goes off in this match up.

The whole Immotek lightning if it goes off nailing the av10 side vehicles is as much of a problem as the night fight. If your vehicles get poped no search lights.

skronk
Tested Gryphons way back in 2009 and found that for 10 points more the Manticore is Strength 10 so can hit vehicles with it and instagib toughness 4 multi wound (paladins etc) and on average gets the same number of shots (2), Gryphons are slightly more accurate and are 2 vehicles to kill vs 1 but the other advantages of the Manticore make it better over all imo.

Crimson-King 2120
When IG first came out I too tried the Aircav list but I found Aircav to not work very well because of no fire points so you have to get out to shoot your melta/plasma and you are limited to 3 squadrons of Vendetta/Valkyries. I hate squadrons because of immobilized being destroyed is bad on expensive vehicles. Squadrons of fliers are cumbersome because maneuvering can be a huge pain on a board with a decent amount of terrain. Vendettas only moving 6 if they want to fire las cannons makes it difficult to get to objectives when your Vendettas get shot first. If you are allowed to use the Elysian list that has Valkyries as dedicated transports its a bit better as Valkyries with rocket pods are decent vs troops and you can use them to move 12 up and seach light the necrons and hit them with rocket pods.

TheLionofTheForest
Dunno how IG vs Necrons plays out at 1000 points I usually play 1850-2000. Alrahem is nice for the outflank in objective missions but I think he kinda expensive at 1000 points.

Kirika wrote:Thanks

target
Have to actually test the Hellhound both vs necrons in other matches. They seem ok vs crons but lackluster vs other mech lists. The last few times I ran into Hellhounds in the IG mirror they really didn't do much at all before they got blown up. Losing the 3rd Vendetta and the hell hound costing more then a Vendetta with multmelta makes them a hardsell. Haven't had time to get in any games lately though.

I was looking at the infantry blob but they are best if you start them on the board and that means you get nailed by immotek's lightning which really hurts if it goes off in this match up.

The whole Immotek lightning if it goes off nailing the av10 side vehicles is as much of a problem as the night fight. If your vehicles get poped no search lights.

skronk
Tested Gryphons way back in 2009 and found that for 10 points more the Manticore is Strength 10 so can hit vehicles with it and instagib toughness 4 multi wound (paladins etc) and on average gets the same number of shots (2), Gryphons are slightly more accurate and are 2 vehicles to kill vs 1 but the other advantages of the Manticore make it better over all imo.

Crimson-King 2120
When IG first came out I too tried the Aircav list but I found Aircav to not work very well because of no fire points so you have to get out to shoot your melta/plasma and you are limited to 3 squadrons of Vendetta/Valkyries. I hate squadrons because of immobilized being destroyed is bad on expensive vehicles. Squadrons of fliers are cumbersome because maneuvering can be a huge pain on a board with a decent amount of terrain. Vendettas only moving 6 if they want to fire las cannons makes it difficult to get to objectives when your Vendettas get shot first. If you are allowed to use the Elysian list that has Valkyries as dedicated transports its a bit better as Valkyries with rocket pods are decent vs troops and you can use them to move 12 up and seach light the necrons and hit them with rocket pods.

TheLionofTheForest
Dunno how IG vs Necrons plays out at 1000 points I usually play 1850-2000. Alrahem is nice for the outflank in objective missions but I think he kinda expensive at 1000 points.

Imotek style lists are typically ones (imo) you NEED to rush/engage, and can't afford to sit back on. Because (as much as it sucks) I find you really can't afford to reserve to avoid the lightning. You just can't come back from losing a couple turns of doing nothing and consistently win a mission against an opponent who hasn't taken much/any damage and has had extra turns to position himself/maneuver

Lightning is inconsistent in who it hits and 1/6 odds, your typically guard army is then taking hits of some sort on ~2 vehicles, meaning you'll probably lose ~1 vehicle to it. It sucks, but that's life.

Hellhounds I wouldn't bother putting a MM on, you have the range and can just fire the flame cannon. While they may not be as ace against mech msu, a lot of the GT field is moving away from mech MSU, and as mech-guard, you should have plenty of other AT in 2x vendetta, manticore(s), hydras, and autocannons, and that's just the ranged stuff, not counting the million meltas.

Hellhounds are excellent against: orks, guard (once you disembark one it digs them out of cover fast), necrons, tyranids, dark eldar, etc., they are a bit sadder versus MEQ, but, can't win em all.

Kirika wrote:TheLionofTheForest
Dunno how IG vs Necrons plays out at 1000 points I usually play 1850-2000. Alrahem is nice for the outflank in objective missions but I think he kinda expensive at 1000 points.

No we played a 2k point match, the 1000pts I was referring to was my main contingent, my CCS PCS and power blob. They performed well... The other 1000pts of my force needs tweaking. I had used storm troopers, Ogryns, Ratlings and 3 LRBTs'

The ogryns killed the scarabs and then got blown away. The ratlings killed nothing, broke, ran and then passed a LD test at above 50%, and were ignored untill they were the last thing I had left (will not be taking Ratlings or Ogryns again probably).

Necro player stole initiative and destroyed one LRBT on his turn one. Blew the turret off another and managed to stun or shake my demolisher EVERY TURN. The necro player also blew my CCS off the table by turn 2. (I had Creed, Lascannon, Vox, Plasma gunner, and a MoO) Apparently the necro player was afraid of my MoO.

I should have been more aggressive and moved my blobs up, I also forgot to use Creeds ability to scout a unit, which would have helped. Also forgot that each of my tanks had a searchlight.

I hate necron av 13 skimmers.... Hate the necron guy who can take control of vehicals...

But i shall have my revenge!

Necron guy hated my powerblob.... apparently no one fields one at my local store. We'll see how he feels when Al'Rahim walks 30 guardsman up his rear.

Thanks to Dakka I knew what i was walking into. I was also glad for the opportunity to play a really tough army with my guardsman. Know I just need more battle experience and next time I hope to give him a run for his money.

~Lion~

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Hate the necron guy who can take control of vehicals...

Yep, Anrakyr is hilarious. I actually want to use him in apoc to take over a Titan or something else daft like that

I talked with a Necron Immotek scarab farm player at Colonial GT and he said he lost to guard with the psyker battle squad which caused Immotek and company to run off the table with a little help from a search light on a Vendetta. I'm thinking I might run a Psyker battle squad again as the trend is actually moving away from psychic defense as before there was alot of Wolves, blood Angels and Marines with librarians but now most Grey Knight lists don't have a librarian. Blood angels and wolves are less popular. The new bandwagon lists of Necrons and the Ork resurgance, psyker battle squad might be something to try again.

target
Haven't had a chance to try the Hellhound yet as I haven't played any games outside of SVDM and Colonial. In those match ups the hell hound really only would have been great vs the 1 Ork match. I played vs 4 Grey Knight opponents at Colonial. Yourself, 2 draigo wing and the grot knights dual raider w dca inside +3 psybolt vendreads + acolytes in psybolt razors for troops.

TheLionoftheForest
I considered Ogryns to deal with scarabs but they cost as much as a terminator and do not perform like a terminator. Also you can't get a power fist really hurts them as does the lack of an assault vehicle.

Storm troopers just cost too much as well costing as much as a marine. If they had the old cost I would take some but in the current editon they cost too much for 5 with 2 meltas in a chimera I could have a vet squad with 3 meltas in a chimera with dozer blade which scores. The ability to deep strike and hotshot las guns just isn't worth the points.

I tried Creed early on for the outflanking Demolishers. It is fun but Creed + demolishers is pretty expensive and it isn't as effective as you think it is.

How does the master of ordinace work for you? I usually give my company command meltas so they need to be moving so master of ordinance is not an option.

Alrahem is quite good. Target convinced me to run Alrahem and he is just that awesome. I prefer 2 infantry chimeras to the outflanking blob. The heavy flamers and multi lasers at side/rear armor as well as additional mobility is good.

So how did your next game vs Necrons go after revisions?

What is the necron players list?

IhateNids
I haven't run into Anraykr yet but I could imagine how it would be bad if he took control of a Manticore and shot another tank.

Hellhound is assume against Scarbs. St6 Kills one base a wound, and since they are swarms, each wound is actually two wounds, so every unsaved wound kills 2 bases.

A couple Vanquishers can really, really hurt Necron armor. If Imotek uses his nightfighting trickery, I use a contingent of Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers and Spot Lights to outflank and illuminate any nuisance Armor (Like Monoliths or Ghost Arks).

And if you imply the reverse to Melta-Vets for two Flamers and a Heavy Flamer against scarabs or Warriors, they can seriously throw up wounds much faster than anti-vehicle weaponry (especially with the Necron Will-Be-Back).

KplKeegan
Lists I'm facing don't have much armor. Imo sentinels are not worth losing Vendettas for. I prefer Manticores / Hydras to Vanquishers (maybe if vanquishers had a coax stubber and could shoot battle cannon rounds I'd consider it)

typical Immotek necron list
Immotek
second hq

crypteks with chronometron and other goodies.

immortals/warriors for troops

wraiths/scarabs for fast

spiders or annilation barges for heavy.

sometimes they have omikron (sp) and ctan for the dangerous terrain combo (devianid's list)

Other list that is popular at tournaments
2 lords with warscythe + stuff in command barge

immortals

scarabs
wraiths
wraiths

spiders
annihilation barge
annihilation barge

pbs is less useful vs the second list but I think it is worth running as psyker defense isn't as prevalent as it was. Even Grey Knights often have no psyker defense as the librarian is not taken often. Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, don't have psyker defense.