Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Psienesis wrote:How is the Tyranid falling upon each other in an orgy of slaughter and violence not "suggestive of feral behavior"? They either kill each other or they flee and hide. This, to me, seems to be basic, instinctive, fight-or-flight behavior.

Being that they're Tyranid, i don't expect them to start living in huts, wearing animal skins, worshiping a malfunctioning cogitator bank and thinking fire is a pretty cool idea, as is often the case with "feral humans", but then, these are Tyranids, they don't have that kind of societal background.

Going on the codex and rule book background for Tyranids, not the novels (as the fluff is too contradictory and miss-matched), Tyranids don't attack each other as when out of synapse range, they are without a mind. So resort to base instincts of feed or flight. this is something the Codices have been consistent on. hence the instinctive behaviour rule. Why would the hive mind genetically alter their appendages to attack themselves... that'd be stupid. As I said in a previous post, every creature in the Tyranid genus is a living appendage of the hive mind. the only time I know of within the Codex fluff that the hive mind has come close to attacking itself is the rejection of Ymgarl genus.

All im saying it it possible that the tyranids are not a true species that evoled. Im saying that maaybe they are the army of some advance species that got out of control.

hotsauceman1 wrote:All im saying it it possible that the tyranids are not a true species that evoled. Im saying that maaybe they are the army of some advance species that got out of control.

From the way Games Workshop have had the fluff written, it suggests they are a hyper-evolved/evolving insectoid race with a singular conciousness. But, as there is no definitive writings on this, any answer could be the right one, its just going to be a matter of opinion really.

Going on the codex and rule book background for Tyranids, not the novels (as the fluff is too contradictory and miss-matched), Tyranids don't attack each other as when out of synapse range, they are without a mind. So resort to base instincts of feed or flight. this is something the Codices have been consistent on. hence the instinctive behaviour rule. Why would the hive mind genetically alter their appendages to attack themselves... that'd be stupid. As I said in a previous post, every creature in the Tyranid genus is a living appendage of the hive mind. the only time I know of within the Codex fluff that the hive mind has come close to attacking itself is the rejection of Ymgarl genus.

With no Synapse Creature present, the rank-and-file Tyranid lose their connection to the Hive Mind.

Psienesis wrote:With no Synapse Creature present, the rank-and-file Tyranid lose their connection to the Hive Mind.

That doesnt automatically mean they turn on themselves. Look at Rippers, they drop dead the moment synapse vanishes from them. with other Tyranid organisms, they have a built in instinct to either hide or feed, hence the rule "instinctual behaviour". they have limited brain functions enough to be able to revert to those hard-wired rules that the Norn Queen places into their genetic code. I have said this already.

Psienesis wrote:Mainly because "bio-engineering" is considered to be a form of forced evolution done by an external intelligence, either by way of genetics, chemistry, selective cross-breeding or any of a number of various methods. If the Tyranids "did it to themselves" then it's not really bio-engineering, it's just evolution, albeit at a very rapid pace.

Of course, there's nothing stopping the Tyranid from evolving in this manner, moving from some sort of social insect to a highly-efficient killing machine that devours galaxies whole, but that's not really bio-engineering.

There could be a middle ground, though, in that the Tyranid were originally just some kind of nasty bug on some planet in some far-off galaxy, who were then modified by some other Xeno race, which got out of control and gave rise to what would eventually become the Tyranid we all know and, er, love (?), but that's more of a "bioweapon run amok" theme.

This is kinda the idea i like to believe. They were created/discovered by a race in another galaxy, and were used and engineered to the point where they became self aware, and began fighting with the animalistic need to feed and grow. After succeeding, they moved on to find more biomass

The Tyranids represent the nightmare pinnacle of evolution gone mad, a ravening super-predator of stellar dimensions which will make all other life forms extinct if it cannot be stopped.

-2nd edition Tyranid Codex

The Tyranids as stated in the 2nd edition Codex are "evolution gone mad". There is no need to keep trying to find some deeper meaning or some other controlling party or creator behind them. That itself seems to be symptommatic of the human urge to find some meaning even in why their enemies behave the way they do. Some of the arguments on this thread also seem to use the logical fallacy of arguing from incredulity: "It is too incredible for me to believe it to be true, therefore it must be false". There are all sorts of things that are true and which are possible today in the modern world which would have sounded incredible and impossible to people of the past. Biology and evolution are capable of creating incredible organisms.

The canonical truth as given by GW is the Tyranids appear to be part of no great plan, whether originally benevolent or malevolent. They are a force of nature that has snowballed to monstrous proportions, as a result of their own success. They don't care about the ideals of those they fight. All the other factions in 40K do care at some level even if it is only in order to oppose and hate them. But the Tyranids don't care what you believe, and to them everyone else is simply food to be consumed under an avalanche of scything talons and fangs. They don't hate you and your ideals. You are as insignificant as the bacteria on the burger you eat. It reduces humanity to insignificance and I think at least some part of why people keep trying to find some deeper meaning or plan behind the Tyranids is to give humanity some sort of significance in the greater cosmic scheme, even if that be as a victim of some other plan. I think these attempts miss the point. The Tyranids epitomize a cold and uncaring cosmos and they are a spoiler force that throws a wrench in the plans of all races, ancient and young. Not everything in the galaxy and the universe has to be from the machination of the Old Ones, C'tan, Emperor, Chaos Gods, or some other entity.

-Loki- wrote:

clively wrote:Whose to say that the Hive Mind is actually a "tyranid" anyway and not some other previously unidentified creature; it's not like the fluff has said that anyone has actually seen it.

The fluff says so. it's a collective consiousness. It's not a creature.

That said, the Tyranids doing the gene splicing are the Norn Queens. They look at all of the genetic matrial taken from a planet, sift through it, and see how they can apply it to the Tyranid race. They also do the birthing of legions. They're basically huge factories at the heart of the bigger hive ships.

do you have a source or link i want to read about this?

Khardrock11 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

clively wrote:Whose to say that the Hive Mind is actually a "tyranid" anyway and not some other previously unidentified creature; it's not like the fluff has said that anyone has actually seen it.

The fluff says so. it's a collective consiousness. It's not a creature.

That said, the Tyranids doing the gene splicing are the Norn Queens. They look at all of the genetic matrial taken from a planet, sift through it, and see how they can apply it to the Tyranid race. They also do the birthing of legions. They're basically huge factories at the heart of the bigger hive ships.

do you have a source or link i want to read about this?

Codex Tyranids, page 5.

"The Hive Mind holds all Tyranid creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act togetheras one gestalt organism. It is a single coordinating sentience formed from untold billions of individual conciousnesses, each of which is a Tyranid."

Certainly sounds like a collective counciousness.

yeah tyranids evolved then the Hive mind rules the evolved tyranids and shapes their evolution

Dont think they were made in a chemistry lab though or a science facility

Just aliens evolving according to needs - though because they hive mind has a hand in guiding that evolution maybe it does count as bio engineering

What is the definition of bio engineering by the OP ?

Iracundus wrote:

The Tyranids represent the nightmare pinnacle of evolution gone mad, a ravening super-predator of stellar dimensions which will make all other life forms extinct if it cannot be stopped.

-2nd edition Tyranid Codex

The Tyranids as stated in the 2nd edition Codex are "evolution gone mad". There is no need to keep trying to find some deeper meaning or some other controlling party or creator behind them. That itself seems to be symptommatic of the human urge to find some meaning even in why their enemies behave the way they do. Some of the arguments on this thread also seem to use the logical fallacy of arguing from incredulity: "It is too incredible for me to believe it to be true, therefore it must be false". There are all sorts of things that are true and which are possible today in the modern world which would have sounded incredible and impossible to people of the past. Biology and evolution are capable of creating incredible organisms.

The canonical truth as given by GW is the Tyranids appear to be part of no great plan, whether originally benevolent or malevolent. They are a force of nature that has snowballed to monstrous proportions, as a result of their own success. They don't care about the ideals of those they fight. All the other factions in 40K do care at some level even if it is only in order to oppose and hate them. But the Tyranids don't care what you believe, and to them everyone else is simply food to be consumed under an avalanche of scything talons and fangs. They don't hate you and your ideals. You are as insignificant as the bacteria on the burger you eat. It reduces humanity to insignificance and I think at least some part of why people keep trying to find some deeper meaning or plan behind the Tyranids is to give humanity some sort of significance in the greater cosmic scheme, even if that be as a victim of some other plan. I think these attempts miss the point. The Tyranids epitomize a cold and uncaring cosmos and they are a spoiler force that throws a wrench in the plans of all races, ancient and young. Not everything in the galaxy and the universe has to be from the machination of the Old Ones, C'tan, Emperor, Chaos Gods, or some other entity.

Word like a motherfudger!!!


Also, I have a bugbear... I fall prey to this as well, as its habit from how it is written all the time. But, why do people refer to the Tyranid race as a plural? They are a singular organism, controlled by a singular conciousness. As I've already stated in a previous post, all the creatures within the race follow a hierarchy beginning with the conciousness and ending with the lowest creatures it has spawned, the rippers. All of which are extensions of itself, adapted perfectly for situations it needed to. Think of each subspecies as tool extensions, like we would use a hammer to hit a nail, or a shovel to dig a tunnel. It attacks as a singular force, with a singular purpose, to utterly consume and further itself.

They are "the Tyranid" race

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Also, I have a bugbear... I fall prey to this as well, as its habit from how it is written all the time. But, why do people refer to the Tyranid race as a plural? They are a singular organism, controlled by a singular conciousness. As I've already stated in a previous post, all the creatures within the race follow a hierarchy beginning with the conciousness and ending with the lowest creatures it has spawned, the rippers. All of which are extensions of itself, adapted perfectly for situations it needed to. Think of each subspecies as tool extensions, like we would use a hammer to hit a nail, or a shovel to dig a tunnel. It attacks as a singular force, with a singular purpose, to utterly consume and further itself.

They are "the Tyranid" race

Although the Tyranid Hive Mind might be a singular consciousness analogous to how there is a singular consciousness for a multicellular organism like a human, the analogy differs in that the Tyranid Hive Mind is a psychic entity and its subcomponents, the various species, have differing genomes from each other. The cells of a human body though they can be specialized and differentiated into greatly different morphologies still share a common genome.

Iracundus wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Also, I have a bugbear... I fall prey to this as well, as its habit from how it is written all the time. But, why do people refer to the Tyranid race as a plural? They are a singular organism, controlled by a singular conciousness. As I've already stated in a previous post, all the creatures within the race follow a hierarchy beginning with the conciousness and ending with the lowest creatures it has spawned, the rippers. All of which are extensions of itself, adapted perfectly for situations it needed to. Think of each subspecies as tool extensions, like we would use a hammer to hit a nail, or a shovel to dig a tunnel. It attacks as a singular force, with a singular purpose, to utterly consume and further itself.

They are "the Tyranid" race

Although the Tyranid Hive Mind might be a singular consciousness analogous to how there is a singular consciousness for a multicellular organism like a human, the analogy differs in that the Tyranid Hive Mind is a psychic entity and its subcomponents, the various species, have differing genomes from each other. The cells of a human body though they can be specialized and differentiated into greatly different morphologies still share a common genome.

They are a consuming organism that takes genetic data from planets devoured, then the Norn-Queens sift the data for usable genetic code. All of this is further controlled by the hive mind, it is this conciousness that self imposes evolution on itself giving rise to the various genetic data within the specie. The very idea that subsections of the specie has a sentience is a 5th ed addition, and something that goes against all the previous editions. Its something I don't hold to, and blame Cruddace for.

IMO the 'nids were created in a very distant galaxy by super advanced civilisation A to fight super advanced civilisation B (kinda like the route the Old ones took against the Necrontyr, but without the need for warp combat). Species A defeats species B with their proto-nids, however the nids quickly turn upon their former masters, eat them and have been doing the same to every form of biological life they have encountered for millions of years.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Well think aabout it it make sense
5: They couldn't have naturally evolved, biology doesn't work that way. Unless the hive mind evolved and made the tyranids as its army

Do tell me everything you know about evolution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:All im saying it it possible that the tyranids are not a true species that evoled. Im saying that maaybe they are the army of some advance species that got out of control.

I guess I don't get why. If they are extragalactic, then they are by necessity older than any other race in the game.

If Humans are just beginning to tap into their psyker potential, then why is it difficult to believe that the Hive Mind is old enough to have evolved psykers, which bacame the Hive Mind? Psykers aren't 'enlightened' in the usual sense. 40K has no Shangri-la from which races of peaceful psykers emanate. In fact, people don't even seem to need to be inordinately intelligent to be psykers, they just are that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:
4: Completly savage and feral, yet they are space capable, only other race out there is like that. The orks, and we know what made them
7. most war faring species have built in instincts to protect their children. Nids, None. It doesn't make sense for a species advance enough that far to not have that instincts that relate to survival of genes.

Well, consider how intense the battle is when your immune system goes after a virus or a bacterium. Feral and savage doesn't begin to describe it, or the many different ways that your body tries to rid itself of invaders. That's savage, and it's parts of you, young cells, that are being destroyed in order to ensure the survival of the body as a whole.

From a biology/genetics standpoint Tyranids are extremely plausable actually. The modern accepted theory is that ants actually DO have a semi-hive mind, in the sense that only the Queen possesses higher mental functions, commanding all the other ants with chemical signals. Basically, the other ants are mindless slaves with some basic instincts in place to interpit the queens chemical signals, and NO self preservation. As mentioned, give em a million years more and you got nids. In a universe where psykers exist, this would be MUCH faster, as psyker signals are far more efficient than chemical signals, so the species would dominate it's environment faster. What's more, psychic connections would enable a more distributed intelligence, where members pool their processing power to make the hive mind smarter, instead of it being just the queen, much like Cloud networks do today, a TRUE Hive Mind... and ofcourse, Hive mind in space.

Controlled lighting fast evolution is also very plausible with a race like the nids. Consider this, millions are born in days/hours, all of which can easly be evaluated by the hive mind. Mutations WILL happen all the time, and the beneficial ones will be almost instantly identified. As such, the Hive can instantly command the beneficially mutated creatures to breed to the exclusion of others, and the weak to die/not breed, so there is no longer need for the natural selection process of the stronger mutants dominating the rest, which slows down evolution. This will means that evolution is DRAMATICALLY accelerated, and all the beneficial mutations will be preserved, unlike in nature where most of them never get a chance to propagate. With simple cross breeding techniques(which the hive mind can perform easily, since it does not really have to worry about the willingness of the subjects), you can keep experimenting and producing new and more versatile breeds in a couple of generations, which for the hive could be a matter of days. Especially if the Tyranid immune and reproductive systems have been purposely evolved to allow mutations often, which it very likely has, to accelerate evolution. Tyranids don't really care about cancers after all.

This does not even take into account that Tyranids are actually said to be able to consciously control their DNA(which is possible by simply making customized viruses). Even with NO direct control over their genetics, they STILL can direct their evolution to do in years what would take us millenia. The only weak link might be the bigger synapse creatures that might be too valuable to replace and experiment with, but that would require them to have preservation instincts, which assumes a centralized intelligence. If the Hive mind is truly a distributed system, synapse creatures are also fully expendable.

Soo yeah, remove individual free will and desire from your population, accelerate breeding, and you can evolve pretty much anything in no time. Hell, even if they took millenia to evolve space travel, they are actually smart and controlled enough to maintain their homeworld for that long without stripping it of resources. Biologically, there is nothing really stopping the Tyranids from existing in the real world, other that the lack of psychics, and possibly that biological spaceships/FTL drives might be impossible(and even that is likely false). Fortunately a chemical transmission based hive mind would not be able to go space faring, so no space ants. Then again it IS feasible to develop biological optical or even electromagnetic based transmitters. Hmmmm...

hotsauceman1 wrote:All im saying it it possible that the tyranids are not a true species that evoled. Im saying that maaybe they are the army of some advance species that got out of control.

I am saying you've got the wrong faction. That schtick in 40K seems to go to the Tau (minus the out-of-control part).

With their entire backstory revolving around "unnaturally rapid" evolution, conveniently hidden behind an "unnatural warp strom", all the way to the "Ethereals appeared mysteriously in a night of lights in the sky" to unify all the warring Tau castes who, surprise, seemed to be bioengineered to obay all Ethereal commands without question or doubt, it's fairly obvious that the engineered-by-someone (dun dun dun dun) for a-yet-unknown-purpose (dun dun dun dun) is pretty much hard-coded in the Tau dex.

Wouldn't really make much sense for GW to play the same clichee twice for two entirely different factions.

DrDuckman wrote:From a biology/genetics standpoint Tyranids are extremely plausable actually. The modern accepted theory is that ants actually DO have a semi-hive mind, in the sense that only the Queen possesses higher mental functions, commanding all the other ants with chemical signals. Basically, the other ants are mindless slaves with some basic instincts in place to interpit the queens chemical signals, and NO self preservation. As mentioned, give em a million years more and you got nids. In a universe where psykers exist, this would be MUCH faster, as psyker signals are far more efficient than chemical signals, so the species would dominate it's environment faster. What's more, psychic connections would enable a more distributed intelligence, where members pool their processing power to make the hive mind smarter, instead of it being just the queen, much like Cloud networks do today, a TRUE Hive Mind... and ofcourse, Hive mind in space.

Controlled lighting fast evolution is also very plausible with a race like the nids. Consider this, millions are born in days/hours, all of which can easly be evaluated by the hive mind. Mutations WILL happen all the time, and the beneficial ones will be almost instantly identified. As such, the Hive can instantly command the beneficially mutated creatures to breed to the exclusion of others, and the weak to die/not breed, so there is no longer need for the natural selection process of the stronger mutants dominating the rest, which slows down evolution. This will means that evolution is DRAMATICALLY accelerated, and all the beneficial mutations will be preserved, unlike in nature where most of them never get a chance to propagate. With simple cross breeding techniques(which the hive mind can perform easily, since it does not really have to worry about the willingness of the subjects), you can keep experimenting and producing new and more versatile breeds in a couple of generations, which for the hive could be a matter of days. Especially if the Tyranid immune and reproductive systems have been purposely evolved to allow mutations often, which it very likely has, to accelerate evolution. Tyranids don't really care about cancers after all.

This does not even take into account that Tyranids are actually said to be able to consciously control their DNA(which is possible by simply making customized viruses). Even with NO direct control over their genetics, they STILL can direct their evolution to do in years what would take us millenia. The only weak link might be the bigger synapse creatures that might be too valuable to replace and experiment with, but that would require them to have preservation instincts, which assumes a centralized intelligence. If the Hive mind is truly a distributed system, synapse creatures are also fully expendable.

Soo yeah, remove individual free will and desire from your population, accelerate breeding, and you can evolve pretty much anything in no time. Hell, even if they took millenia to evolve space travel, they are actually smart and controlled enough to maintain their homeworld for that long without stripping it of resources. Biologically, there is nothing really stopping the Tyranids from existing in the real world, other that the lack of psychics, and possibly that biological spaceships/FTL drives might be impossible(and even that is likely false). Fortunately a chemical transmission based hive mind would not be able to go space faring, so no space ants. Then again it IS feasible to develop biological optical or even electromagnetic based transmitters. Hmmmm...

Add to the fact, that the Norn Queens sit on the Leviathan hive-ships birthing and controlling the entire genetic pool, as well as the fact "emotion" has been bred out of them, and that the time it takes from gestation to birth takes mere minutes. All of this makes the Tyranid race the pinnacle of evolution. Hence my earlier post, they are the shadow every human is afraid of... the silent threat.

I'm pretty disappointed at the direction they took the fluff. The older fluff also had bits about them evolving into the ultimate predator. That was a cool bit of fluff to accompany their hunger. Now it's all just NOM NOM NOM.

Answers

1)Well its a part of some animals biology to evolve on the go, and the fact of the speed shows how much fast there metabolic systems are to change to the world around them like how certain bugs and weeds become resistant to the poisons used on them. On the weapons subject its no different then how the Cobra can spit its acidic venom at prey.

2)The Hive mind thinks like any person just on a higher level then us it learns, it can do it very very fast tho that is strange but then again the hive mind shares the experiences of all the nids with in said hive so when 1 dies from a Guardsman's landmine the billion others will learn to avoid them

3) in ant colonies there are warriors who lead the way for the other weaker ones just how the bread in commanders lead the weaker troops to a ultimate victory

4) Yes orks are savage and barbaric but nids are like bugs and they are 100% submissive to the hive mind and its wishes so it says sit and build a space ship it will be done

5)No, it dose work that way the nids are not like a school of fish but more like a Ant colony and who is to say they did not evolve over billions of years from ant type bugs to the things they are now there is planets that have not yet been explored where they may have originated or they may be from out of the milky way away from hands to mess with there evolution

6)Well so can orks in a way. and they may have a extremely quick reproductive process. Also we can't factor the live span of a normal nid like we could a ant or fly so perhaps its keeping in order to continually reproduce

7) Like i said on #6 we don't know there life span and we don't know if they have reserves in hibernation that and as babes they may like bees and ants be left in a type of hibernation to mature so it can be ready to serve and contribute to the hive. Also just saying they maybe Asexual unless they have special nids hidden away for breeding purposes only.