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Well think aabout it it make sense
1: Adaptable, They can adapt soldiers on the fly, and create new ones quick. They have weapons built into their biology. Its like if humans had swords for hands
2: The hive mind: Adpats quickly and is made for war,
3: Organisms that are born too be commanders. with intincts that relate to warfare, same with others
4: Completly savage and feral, yet they are space capable, only other race out there is like that. The orks, and we know what made them
5: They couldn't have naturally evolved, biology doesn't work that way. Unless the hive mind evolved and made the tyranids as its army
6: They can make soldiers effectively and easily on the battle feild, allowing for mob tactics.
7. most war faring species have built in instincts to protect their children. Nids, None. It doesn't make sense for a species advance enough that far to not have that instincts that relate to survival of genes.

Well your point #5 is not even close to being true. Imagine if a colony of ants, became the dominant species on the planet, over millennia its quite possible that their hive mentality would form into a quasi consciousness. Leave that for several more millennia, and you have arrived at a self aware group consciousness. Rather than perusing technological advances, the hive is already made up of individuals. And when a group of these special ants is better than that group at this particular task (what ever it is) the Hive would plausibly react accordingly and adapt that strain via selective breeding or any NUMBER of methods to perfect that strain for that job. A few more millenia and you now have your first tyranids. A hive consciousness that can direct its own evolution to suit its purposes begins to look elsewhere in its solor system for useable resources as its home planet strains to support is mass.

When has there ever been species that can control its evolution like the Nids? its impossible. Not on the fly like the Nids can.

hotsauceman1 wrote:When has there ever been species that can control its evolution like the Nids? its impossible. Not on the fly like the Nids can.

When has there ever been elves that travel the stars in giant cities made of psycho-reactive bone? When has there ever been robots armed with guns that flay you at the atomic level and teleport back to a home base for repairs? When has there ever been ape-like intelligent mushrooms?

Why is it that people throw all logical common sense out the window because it's 40k, then when they get to Tyranids, hard science or GTFO.

Tyranids are bioengineered. By themselves. Their hive mind is intelligent and self aware, their minions are not children, and they do not follow Darwinian evolution, they have self-imposed artificial evolution.

hotsauceman1 wrote:When has there ever been species that can control its evolution like the Nids? its impossible. Not on the fly like the Nids can.

Nids don't change on the fly. They have a form of genetic templete memory, pulling from it the code best for the situation.

-Loki- wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:When has there ever been species that can control its evolution like the Nids? its impossible. Not on the fly like the Nids can.

When has there ever been elves that travel the stars in giant cities made of psycho-reactive bone? When has there ever been robots armed with guns that flay you at the atomic level and teleport back to a home base for repairs? When has there ever been ape-like intelligent mushrooms?

Why is it that people throw all logical common sense out the window because it's 40k, then when they get to Tyranids, hard science or GTFO.

its kinda true, i mean when is there any hardcore intel in warhammer 40k on any of the races tech??? I mean the race that has the most explanation for their race tech is the orks(yes the orks the codex tells you how everything works )though we are advancing pretty fast in tech now a days, who knows in the future of humanity this tech in warhammer 40k will be outdated

hotsauceman1 wrote:When has there ever been species that can control its evolution like the Nids? its impossible. Not on the fly like the Nids can.

Real scientists control the evolution of short lived creatures such as fruit flys for experimentation. Botanists breed plants for specific traits (like a particular color of rose). Others breed dogs....

Whose to say that the Hive Mind is actually a "tyranid" anyway and not some other previously unidentified creature; it's not like the fluff has said that anyone has actually seen it. Regardless saying something is "impossible" only means you don't know if it has been done before or not. This universe (the real one) is a pretty big place...

clively wrote:Whose to say that the Hive Mind is actually a "tyranid" anyway and not some other previously unidentified creature; it's not like the fluff has said that anyone has actually seen it.

The fluff says so. it's a collective consiousness. It's not a creature.

That said, the Tyranids doing the gene splicing are the Norn Queens. They look at all of the genetic matrial taken from a planet, sift through it, and see how they can apply it to the Tyranid race. They also do the birthing of legions. They're basically huge factories at the heart of the bigger hive ships.

If they are a bio-engineered weapon of some kind, we've been given absolutely no evidence as to who did so, or why, or if they are even still around to regret their decision.

-Loki- wrote: When has there ever been ape-like intelligent mushrooms?

Hmmmmm, not sure what'chya ruferen too wiff dis 'ere bit. Prolly da humies. Humies is as soft an' squishy az a mushyroom, not tough an ard like da orks!
My personal theory was a warp-based organism such as the enslavers became trapped in the material world. In order to survive, it/they created the tyranids by mind controlling organisms on an atomic level to resculpt them into the tyranids so the warp beings could continue to exist through their intelligences. They now roam the universe seeking to create the perfect body.
Just my two cents...
*WHACK*
Back in yer pen, squiggy! Dat theory's stoopid! Nids wuz created by Gork'n Mork ta give us orks somefink to smash da teef outta because da humiez wasn't tuff enuff' nomores

I don't see why tyranids can't bio engineer themselves. People our scientists genetically alter and engineer things through use of chemicals stimulants and catalysts. Needless to say a hive mind that has developed a higher level of conciousness would be able to do the same albeit through a purely organic means.

Sasa0mg wrote:I don't see why tyranids can't bio engineer themselves. People our scientists genetically alter and engineer things through use of chemicals stimulants and catalysts. Needless to say a hive mind that has developed a higher level of conciousness would be able to do the same albeit through a purely organic means.

Exactly, unless the argument says we are product of "God" then there is no way Tyranids cant become what we are,
but more deadly and more efficient, with brain bugs!

Mainly because "bio-engineering" is considered to be a form of forced evolution done by an external intelligence, either by way of genetics, chemistry, selective cross-breeding or any of a number of various methods. If the Tyranids "did it to themselves" then it's not really bio-engineering, it's just evolution, albeit at a very rapid pace.

Of course, there's nothing stopping the Tyranid from evolving in this manner, moving from some sort of social insect to a highly-efficient killing machine that devours galaxies whole, but that's not really bio-engineering.

There could be a middle ground, though, in that the Tyranid were originally just some kind of nasty bug on some planet in some far-off galaxy, who were then modified by some other Xeno race, which got out of control and gave rise to what would eventually become the Tyranid we all know and, er, love (?), but that's more of a "bioweapon run amok" theme.

Tyranids were the last race created by the Old Ones before they were wiped out.

They were the final weapon made to remove the taint of the failed first experiments and the Necrontyr. Unfortunately the Old Ones which were responsible for this new race didn't count on the Tyranids seeing them as something to be cleansed as well.

Total Fan fiction on my behalf.

Well think aabout it it make sense
1: Adaptable, They can adapt soldiers on the fly, and create new ones quick. They have weapons built into their biology. Its like if humans had swords for hands
2: The hive mind: Adpats quickly and is made for war,
3: Organisms that are born too be commanders. with intincts that relate to warfare, same with others
4: Completly savage and feral, yet they are space capable, only other race out there is like that. The orks, and we know what made them
5: They couldn't have naturally evolved, biology doesn't work that way. Unless the hive mind evolved and made the tyranids as its army
6: They can make soldiers effectively and easily on the battle feild, allowing for mob tactics.
7. most war faring species have built in instincts to protect their children. Nids, None. It doesn't make sense for a species advance enough that far to not have that instincts that relate to survival of genes.

1. You dont have to be bio engineered to be adaptable, from the most basic organism on Earth to Human Beings, adaptability is a trait which is widespread and commonplace.
Whilst there is little point in applying Darwinism and other evolutionary theories to 40k, some leeway has to be given as a basis for 40k writers ideas.

2. What has that got to do with bio engineering? Just because ther Hive Mind has the ability to assess and deal with oppostion quickly and effectively through warfare, dosent prove in any way it was bioengineered.

3. See #3. The only organism that is a true commander for Nids is the Swarmlord, the others ie. Tyrants etc are simply conduits that relay "instructions" to te less creatures during battle.
Their insticnts for warfare are simply advanced tactical decisions, evaluated through past knowledge of enemies and possible outcomes.

4. Deceptively savage and feral, its my opinion that the Hive Mind is one of the most intelligent and advanced entities in the 40k universe. Again being space capable doses not mean they were BE'd. For all we know space is their native habitat and they only land on planets for biomass consumption.

5. Im not sure what you mean here, can you explain more?

6. Sound a bit repititive here but how does that related to BE at all?

7. Nids dont need to worry about children or conservation of genes because at a basic level they "expect" to win every battle and hence consume enough biomass to reconsume it back into the hive, eneabling them to create more creatuers, more advanced organisms and knowlegde of enemies and other races. In addition you are applying very EArth-like properties to the Nids in terms of protection of the young. There are lots of examples even here on Earth of organisms reproducing and spending exactly zero resoruces caring for or upbringing their young.

In short I cant see how your hypothesis works on any level.

Pilau Rice wrote:Tyranids were the last race created by the Old Ones before they were wiped out.

They were the final weapon made to remove the taint of the failed first experiments and the Necrontyr. Unfortunately the Old Ones which were responsible for this new race didn't count on the Tyranids seeing them as something to be cleansed as well.

Total Fan fiction on my behalf.

I like it, but the problem there is that the Tyranids ignore the Necrontyr. What biomass can you harvest from a metal husk?

And anyway, the Tyranids are bio-engineered. Read the Anphelion Project (IE4) for more info.

Basically, 'Nids couldn't get into a projector field, so they made Raveners and Trygons to burrow under it.

Chowderhead wrote:I like it, but the problem there is that the Tyranids ignore the Necrontyr. What biomass can you harvest from a metal husk?

Thank you sir. They were to eventually burn themselves out once all life was scoured from the galaxy, basically using all other lifeforms to fuel them until the Necrons had been defeated. Kind of a self destruct mechanism. Once there was nothing left, and the Tyranids weren't anymore the Old Ones would return and reseed the dead planets with life again. .

Pilau Rice wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:I like it, but the problem there is that the Tyranids ignore the Necrontyr. What biomass can you harvest from a metal husk?

Thank you sir. They were to eventually burn themselves out once all life was scoured from the galaxy, basically using all other lifeforms to fuel them until the Necrons had been defeated. Kind of a self destruct mechanism. Once there was nothing left, and the Tyranids weren't anymore the Old Ones would return and reseed the dead planets with life again. .

That's actually pretty damned good.

The actual Fluff states they're from another galaxy, but this doesn't sound like a bad alternate.

Chowderhead wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:I like it, but the problem there is that the Tyranids ignore the Necrontyr. What biomass can you harvest from a metal husk?

Thank you sir. They were to eventually burn themselves out once all life was scoured from the galaxy, basically using all other lifeforms to fuel them until the Necrons had been defeated. Kind of a self destruct mechanism. Once there was nothing left, and the Tyranids weren't anymore the Old Ones would return and reseed the dead planets with life again. .

That's actually pretty damned good.

The actual Fluff states they're from another galaxy, but this doesn't sound like a bad alternate.

The Old Ones fled to the outer reaches of the Universe during the war in Heaven. This was one of their final bastions and laboratories on the very edge of space, it was maybe 12 Galaxies away from ours

All angles covered, at least I've attempted too

And anyway, the Tyranids are bio-engineered. Read the Anphelion Project (IE4) for more info.

Basically, 'Nids couldn't get into a projector field, so they made Raveners and Trygons to burrow under it.

Uhm?
The Tyranids as a race were around long long before the Anphelion project was kicked off.
The question was whether the Nids as a race had been bioengineered by some entity/force.
You cant seriously be implying the Imperium bioengineered the whole Nid race due to the story in IA4 can you?

And again there is a distinct and truely massive difference between adaptation (ie learning to burrow under the fence) and being bioengeineered by another race.
In addition the ability to create Trygons/Mawlocs etc might not have been a specific adaptation on that planet, Nids have a collect consiousness which spreads knowledge throughtout its fleets.
It is entirely possible when it encountered the fences rather than mutating on the spot/randomly, it simply drew upon its past experience (a sort of genetic memory) from other conflicts and created Mawlocs/Trygons to overcome it.
I dont think its canon that Mawlocs/Raveners/Harridans were first encountered on Anphelion.

Various Tyranid organisms are frequently described as "bio-engineered"; it seems reasonable to assume that all the Tyranid creatures seen on the tabletop are the product of such engineering. Speculatively, their common attributes -six limbs, vaguely saurian features - might be a vestige of the original species from which the Tyranids descend. Whether the Hive Mind itself is the product of said engineering, or the surviving consciousness of the engineer, however, is anybody's guess.

I think, IRT the bio-engineering of the various Tyranids on the tabletop, the only person doing the engineering is the Swarmlord or the Norn Queen... these sorts of troops are being built by the Swarm for a specific purpose, so they're restructuring their spawning pools in order to create whatever these new bugs are... kinda the same way the do with *every* Tyranid organism.

Various Tyranid organisms are frequently described as "bio-engineered"; it seems reasonable to assume that all the Tyranid creatures seen on the tabletop are the product of such engineering. Speculatively, their common attributes -six limbs, vaguely saurian features - might be a vestige of the original species from which the Tyranids descend. Whether the Hive Mind itself is the product of said engineering, or the surviving consciousness of the engineer, however, is anybody's guess.

Gotta be anal here (sorry!) and ask for a citation.

Guys/girls are we clear on what Bio Engineered means/is?

Lets establish a base here first.

Excellent idea.

To paraphrase Wikipedia, where engineering uses sciences such as physics and mathematics to design tools, objects and processes, biological engineering taps into disciplines such as molecular biology and genetics to create living organisms and derive applications from them.
That definition matches what we already know about Norn Queens' job and the rather proactive take of Nids on evolution. I'd say yes, they bio-engineer themselves.

Is it a stretch to say they could have evolved toward this state ? I wouldn't say that. An ant queen can lay eggs of soldiers or workers at will according to the needs of the colony. To me that's an acceptable basis for imagining a sci-fi species of locusts that would alter and manipulate their very genetic pattern.

CuddlySquig wrote: Hmmmmm, not sure what'chya ruferen too wiff dis 'ere bit. Prolly da humies. Humies is as soft an' squishy az a mushyroom, not tough an ard like da orks!
Back in yer pen, squiggy! Dat theory's stoopid! Nids wuz created by Gork'n Mork ta give us orks somefink to smash da teef outta because da humiez wasn't tuff enuff' nomores

Just wanted to say I love those bits of orkiness

Uhm nice and easy as Wiki is....pffffff, dig deep into their "sources", a lot of them are....really un-worthy of Primary source material....but I do acknowledge the idea to establish a base of Canon

hotsauceman1 wrote:1: Adaptable, They can adapt soldiers on the fly, and create new ones quick. They have weapons built into their biology. Its like if humans had swords for hands.

It's called Evolution, the Tyranid "species" just happens to be able to do it within mere minutes as opposed to generations and millennia.

hotsauceman1 wrote:2: The hive mind: Adpats quickly and is made for war.

It isn't made for war, It adapted itself for war... Think of it this way: An ant colony's Queen suddenly becomes self aware. Able to adapt itself to the world around, if it understood how the world was around it, I personally would think it would become more active and aggressive.

hotsauceman1 wrote:3: Organisms that are born too be commanders. with intincts that relate to warfare, same with others.

Again, reference Ant colony's. A vast majority of them have the Queen, The worker and the Bull. The bull being the warriors the keep everything going. same difference.

hotsauceman1 wrote:4: Completly savage and feral, yet they are space capable, only other race out there is like that. The orks, and we know what made them.

Nothing about the Tyranid genus is Feral. They are just aggressive in their need to sustain the hivefleet and hivemind.

hotsauceman1 wrote:5: They couldn't have naturally evolved, biology doesn't work that way. Unless the hive mind evolved and made the tyranids as its army.

Again look at ants, they naturally evolved, but they arent the only species on the planet to have a singular mind in full control over the species.

hotsauceman1 wrote:6: They can make soldiers effectively and easily on the battle feild, allowing for mob tactics.

Evolution at it's finest. any species with a higher functioning intelligence can do this, that doesnt mean the tyranids were created. Humans do it all the time, we are the only species on the planet to develop tools for eating and warfare. it's not that big a leap for a species to biologically adapt in the same way.

hotsauceman1 wrote:7. most war faring species have built in instincts to protect their children. Nids, None. It doesn't make sense for a species advance enough that far to not have that instincts that relate to survival of genes.

Actually Tyranids have a built in function to protect their young. Read the current Codex for some of many excellent points of reference. Hive guard, protectors of the fleet. Tervigon's are spawned as watchers while the fleet sails between worlds. the very fact that Tyranids spawn organisms as a defence mechanism when a foriegn body is detected is a survival instinct.


Games workshop have not only based the Tyranids on the Xenomorphs from ridly scotts Alien films, but countless Insect species. There is no hard written fluff that states what and were the Tyranids come from, except they do not originate from out galaxy. But judging from species that exist on our own planet currently, I'd have to say Tyranids are a natural evolution through genetic absorption. There are species also that exist that can change its genetic make-up to change sex (frogs), as well as regrow limbs (reptiles). Also consider every subspecies of the Tyranid race as a limb, organ, nerves and blood supply, each is vital to the others continued existence. Much like the human body is made up of individual parts that cannot work without the continued existence of the others.

well thats my two cents.

Actually, deprived their "control bugs", the Tyranids do become feral, and turn on each other. This is why it is best to target the Synapse Creatures.

When we talk about bio-engineering, I think it's disingenuous to claim that the Tyranid are a bio-engineered race if we're claiming that they bio-engineered themselves. To me, bio-engineering implies a third-party sentience applying various molecular and genetic sciences in order to effect a desired, specific change in a creature's evolutionary path. We don't have any evidence of this, and as the Nids are extra-galactic, we have no base template by which to judge their evolutionary habits.

Psienesis wrote:Actually, deprived their "control bugs", the Tyranids do become feral, and turn on each other. This is why it is best to target the Synapse Creatures.

If going on a rules basis, Tyranids only become subject to "feed" and "lurk", neither of which are suggestive of feral behaviour. Even taking the step back to fluff, there is a lot of contradictory stories about what their "natural" behaviour pattern really is. The only thing we can say is, when Tyranid organisms become subject to instinctive behaviour, the hive mind filters orders down through its command structure to plug any gaps created in the synapse relay system. There is nothing wild about the Tyranid genus, they all have genetic fail-safes built in by the norn queens to ensure their continued survival, be it to lurk or continue feeding.

How is the Tyranid falling upon each other in an orgy of slaughter and violence not "suggestive of feral behavior"? They either kill each other or they flee and hide. This, to me, seems to be basic, instinctive, fight-or-flight behavior.

Being that they're Tyranid, i don't expect them to start living in huts, wearing animal skins, worshiping a malfunctioning cogitator bank and thinking fire is a pretty cool idea, as is often the case with "feral humans", but then, these are Tyranids, they don't have that kind of societal background.